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preacha
Norway210 Posts
On January 10 2010 16:36 exeexe wrote: actually in pvp its more safe to go forge cannon instead of obs. well, on d/c-lvl pvp youll see alot of 2gatelot openings. so, a forge cannon wouldnt be very safe since lots eat up cannons, unless you have a buttload - which you dont have early-game. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On January 13 2010 03:45 preacha wrote: well, on d/c-lvl pvp youll see alot of 2gatelot openings. so, a forge cannon wouldnt be very safe since lots eat up cannons, unless you have a buttload - which you dont have early-game. What? Why would 2gate lots be good against forge cannon? That sounds like the weakest possible counterbuild... Your opponent has no tech, no ranged units, no expansion, and no ability to deny scouting. You have two bases, and can defend them trivially with some very basic simcity/probeblocking type action. Massing zealots shouldn't work at all... | ||
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preacha
Norway210 Posts
On January 13 2010 04:11 Severedevil wrote: What? Why would 2gate lots be good against forge cannon? That sounds like the weakest possible counterbuild... Your opponent has no tech, no ranged units, no expansion, and no ability to deny scouting. You have two bases, and can defend them trivially with some very basic simcity/probeblocking type action. Massing zealots shouldn't work at all... again, i was saying d/c-lvl. how often do ppl lose to 2gate-lotrush on that lvl - alot. so, if he is at that lvl, i would suggest something else. | ||
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rad301
Canada196 Posts
PvP: I go for a 1 gate reaver build. I've never had a situation where I couldn't defend against a 2 gate power goon build (granted I have a ramp) with constant goon production. This allows me to get fairly quick obs to counter dts, and if I do the drop properly I can devastate the opponents econemy and after fending off his first attack take an expo. Make sure you don't send your shuttle/reaver out when the opponent pushes, as you'll need it to defend. I reccomend watching Nony's fpvods for a better description of this kind of play style. The most important thing in PvP to me is scouting. If you see the oppenent going for a 2 gate zealot build you need to immediately drop another gate. This happens to me quite often on iccup, but if you defend it well then you should easily be able to take the game. As a general rule if you don't scout the opponent on the first position, build a zealot. If you scout the wrong location again, make a second zealot. It may slow you down, but that is better than losing. Also, if I know my oppenent isn't the best at micro, I'll get goon range later, as having the ramp will to a degree nullify the oppenents goon range. I don't recommend this though unless you are sure. PvT: What I usually do is also a one gate reaver build, however I priortize the obs before the shuttle and reaver, to deal with early vultures. Keeping your reaver alive is much more important here, as if the oppenent opted for a 2 fact you'll need the extra help. After the reaver harass, drop a gate or two and get ready for a push unless you've totally decimated his eco. If this is the case, try for an expo, but be careful. About 70% of the time I use this build, my reaver arrives before turrets are up, or there are openings in the turret formation. If this isn't the case, bring you're shuttle back and use it with a reaver and two zealots to bulldog the terran once he pushes out. Both this and the PvP build require you to know how to properly micro reavers. There are alternatives to reaver drops, but I found the reaver has much more potential to damage the terran, and as said above if the reaver drop fails you can bulldog the terran. PvZ: I won't lie, if I can't kill the zerg in the first 7 minutes I usually lose, but this build should help you greatly if you can transition into midgame properly (my biggest weakness). I use a 10/12 gate zealot build. The reason I reccomend this build over the FFE is primarily because I suck at the FFE, but also because it has a great potential to kill the zerg, without any kind of all in play. build a pylon at about 15, keep probes pumping, and never stop making zealots. once you have 7 zealots, attack with 5 of them and block your ramp with 2 (once again you need a ramp to do this build). The next two zealots should finish around the time that your first 5 reach the enemy's base, so at this point you may as well send all the rest in unless the zerg's lings are sitting outside you base, in which case send only two. Keep cycling zealots in until it loses it's effectiveness. You'll need to really micro those zealots, but you should be able to destroy the zerg's expo. Once you manage that, immediately drop a stargate and make some corsairs(you can also opt for other tech but I prefer this one). Ideally the zerg will have made a bunch of sunkens in his main, and he'll have nothing to deal with the sairs popping his ovies. This build can be countered if scouted quite easily, but the funny thing is that low level zergs usually still get owned by the zealot push even when they do scout it. Remember that every build has a weakness. I find that using builds that are less common tend to be harder to counter, especially the 10/12 gate. Hope this helps, ~Rad301 | ||
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Husky
United States3362 Posts
As a personal preference in PvP I just prefer to go 4 Gate Goon. It is an instant loss against DT's but any other Protoss build at the low levels it is really strong against. Its basically the highest amount of units you can have once you push out, and as long as they went any other tech besides DT's you should have an advantage. Only thing that will give you trouble is well controlled reavers (which you rarely face at the low levels). Thats just a personal preference though, I dont know if its more 'safe'. | ||
KwarK
United States41963 Posts
On January 13 2010 07:41 HuskyTheHusky wrote: It is an instant loss against DT's I dont know if its more 'safe'. That is the wrong way to play bw. Also you're an idiot. "Here's my build which autoloses to some of their builds. I don't know if it's safe or not." Yeah... Don't just roll the dice, pick a build and hope you get lucky. Scout and then decide upon the statistically best build to counter your opponents range of builds. | ||
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KwarK
United States41963 Posts
 Edit: My 9000th post was mocking the strategic knowledge of youtube commentators. Can't think of a better use of it.  | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
PvT: 1 gate range robo expand PvZ: forge FE. tech order: stargate, +1 weapons , sair, adun, gateway, legs, archives, 2 more gateways, +1 speedlot attack. | ||
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stoned_rabbit
United States324 Posts
On January 13 2010 08:31 lazz wrote: PvP: 2 gate goon obs then reaver PvT: 1 gate range robo expand PvZ: forge FE. tech order: stargate, +1 weapons , sair, adun, gateway, legs, archives, 2 more gateways, +1 speedlot attack. lol so much bad advice in this thread. listen to this guy if you wanna play standard. those are the safest builds in each matchup. for pvz though you really need 3-4 good build orders to counter all the possible zerg openings. another good build for pvp is zcorez robo shuttle obs reaver, i like it more on ramped maps because you are completely safe unless its vs 3-4 gate cheese (which you should scout)..It also allows much more flexibility, is safer against really fast dts (noobs favorite unit) and gets faster reaver for harassment. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
On January 13 2010 11:24 Pokebunny wrote: exeexe is not claiming you should forge cannon expand in his post... read more carefully guys. He's saying forge cannon instead of obs for detection (forge/cannon is cheaper + faster to build). forge DT fast expand is somewhat common on iccup (at least by korean toss users)... not used much in pro games though because your opponent will have an economic lead once he deflects the dts and puts his own nexus up. | ||
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Deleted User 48059
86 Posts
On January 13 2010 08:00 KwarK wrote: That is the wrong way to play bw. Also you're an idiot. "Here's my build which autoloses to some of their builds. I don't know if it's safe or not." Yeah... Don't just roll the dice, pick a build and hope you get lucky. Scout and then decide upon the statistically best build to counter your opponents range of builds. Yeouch. I'm gonna be honest here; I agree that Husky's approach isn't the best way to play bw (assuming your goal is to steadily improve at standard play), far from it in fact. But lets try and stop a little short of calling other gamers idiots... Well, besides the *very* select few for whom there is no justification for being - and I think most people have at least some justification for the crap they spout. I do agree with your main point though. Scouting and countering is one of Starcraft's core principles. As far as I'm concerned (please bear in mind that I am a lowly (read: utterly shit) D rank), the PvP matchup is one of the most enjoyable, purely because there is a huge amount of decision making involved. Scouting is imperative, particularly early on in the game, when your opponent could feasibly be playing anything from 1gate-core with no zealot to 3gate before gas all-in (admittedly those are extremes most often encountered on battle.net). For me, earlygame PvP is a pleasant reminder that Starcraft is a game of strategy, and not yet an entirely mechanics-and APM-driven game (at least at lower levels). So yeah, 4-gate goon will no doubt get you a respectable number of games at D-rank (probably a fair few against me, lol), and if that's your goal then fair play to you, but the 'better' option would be to scout effectively with your initial probe and try to react accordingly. My (flawed) advice would be to try and simply match opposing gateway numbers, getting robo/obs as soon as safely possible (or go the DT route, but I can't comment on that, as I tend to go 1- or 2-gate into robo). An exception would be vs 3gate zealot craziness, particularly on a ramped map, with long rush distance (eg. Destination) - against most opponents you should get away with 2gate, leading you into a fairly favourable midgame. If anyone has better general rules for early PvP I'd like to hear them, as my play is ropey at best. Also, at the risk of hijacking the thread - PvZ fast expand build orders - I hear a few different BOs quoted depending on whether the Z opened 9pool, 9pool speed, Overpool speed, Overpool without speed, 12pool, or 12 Hatch/11pool. Liquipedia only mentions general rules for vs 9pool, 12pool & 12hatch, which I think I have down pretty well now, but from what I can gather it is optimal, and still fairly safe (again, particularly on long rush maps like Desti) to try different openings (eg. Forge, CannonCannon, Nexus vs. Forge, Cannon, Nexus, vs. Forge. Nexus, CannonCannon) vs different variations of overpool/9pool. I would really appreciate some insight into what exactly is a viable and still safe response to 9pool, Overpool, Overpool speed etc.? Thanks to anybody who answers Kev edit: I am a little drunk (it being 3.15 am), so I apoligise if any of the above is off-topic, utterly incoherent or at all insulting. I might edit it tomorrow, if I remember. Which I probably won't. | ||
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BraveNewWorld
United States229 Posts
On January 11 2010 01:47 heroyi wrote: lol ppl just stop you with no. oh and no. everytime i see someone go that route i just smile, contain for reaver, bombard the fuck out of him and march my men right through. to OP: keep in mind that the builds ppl just stated are good for all tech in the MU. HOWEVER, if you can scout him (opponent) long enough to see his tech route then there are much better builds to go after. for example pvp, if you him the enemy have temp archive then you can suspect him getting dt thus you get robo for obs. if he gets robo first then you go get reaver or go do something else. in pvt, if terran siege expand, go double expand, if he does 2fact or w.e then get obs for safety what if they go carriers b4 ur arbs arrive? then ur fucked because hes playing it like UMS FMP with cannon defense v2.0 | ||
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BraveNewWorld
United States229 Posts
On January 13 2010 08:25 KwarK wrote: Oh God! You're a starcraft commentator too. And Protoss is your main race. no need to be a douche bag some of us actually have lives that aren't revolving around memorizing pixelated build orders | ||
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KwarK
United States41963 Posts
On January 13 2010 12:15 weepingblades wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yeouch. I'm gonna be honest here; I agree that Husky's approach isn't the best way to play bw (assuming your goal is to steadily improve at standard play), far from it in fact. But lets try and stop a little short of calling other gamers idiots... Well, besides the *very* select few for whom there is no justification for being - and I think most people have at least some justification for the crap they spout. I do agree with your main point though. Scouting and countering is one of Starcraft's core principles. As far as I'm concerned (please bear in mind that I am a lowly (read: utterly shit) D rank), the PvP matchup is one of the most enjoyable, purely because there is a huge amount of decision making involved. Scouting is imperative, particularly early on in the game, when your opponent could feasibly be playing anything from 1gate-core with no zealot to 3gate before gas all-in (admittedly those are extremes most often encountered on battle.net). For me, earlygame PvP is a pleasant reminder that Starcraft is a game of strategy, and not yet an entirely mechanics-and APM-driven game (at least at lower levels). So yeah, 4-gate goon will no doubt get you a respectable number of games at D-rank (probably a fair few against me, lol), and if that's your goal then fair play to you, but the 'better' option would be to scout effectively with your initial probe and try to react accordingly. My (flawed) advice would be to try and simply match opposing gateway numbers, getting robo/obs as soon as safely possible (or go the DT route, but I can't comment on that, as I tend to go 1- or 2-gate into robo). An exception would be vs 3gate zealot craziness, particularly on a ramped map, with long rush distance (eg. Destination) - against most opponents you should get away with 2gate, leading you into a fairly favourable midgame. If anyone has better general rules for early PvP I'd like to hear them, as my play is ropey at best. Also, at the risk of hijacking the thread - PvZ fast expand build orders - I hear a few different BOs quoted depending on whether the Z opened 9pool, 9pool speed, Overpool speed, Overpool without speed, 12pool, or 12 Hatch/11pool. Liquipedia only mentions general rules for vs 9pool, 12pool & 12hatch, which I think I have down pretty well now, but from what I can gather it is optimal, and still fairly safe (again, particularly on long rush maps like Desti) to try different openings (eg. Forge, CannonCannon, Nexus vs. Forge, Cannon, Nexus, vs. Forge. Nexus, CannonCannon) vs different variations of overpool/9pool. I would really appreciate some insight into what exactly is a viable and still safe response to 9pool, Overpool, Overpool speed etc.? Thanks to anybody who answers Kev edit: I am a little drunk (it being 3.15 am), so I apoligise if any of the above is off-topic, utterly incoherent or at all insulting. I might edit it tomorrow, if I remember. Which I probably won't. He's an idiot because the guy asked for safe builds and he said 4 gate goon and then he said that it autoloses to dt (ie is really unsafe) and then after acknowledging that it's really unsafe he says he doesn't know how safe it is. Evidently he has some serious problems with both comprehension of the question and, strangely enough, his own answer to the question. Idiot wasn't an insult in this context. It was a description. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On January 13 2010 09:39 stoned_rabbit wrote: lol so much bad advice in this thread. listen to this guy if you wanna play standard. those are the safest builds in each matchup. for pvz though you really need 3-4 good build orders to counter all the possible zerg openings. another good build for pvp is zcorez robo shuttle obs reaver, i like it more on ramped maps because you are completely safe unless its vs 3-4 gate cheese (which you should scout)..It also allows much more flexibility, is safer against really fast dts (noobs favorite unit) and gets faster reaver for harassment. you're an idiot if you think 1 gate robo is the safest pvt build. also, idiot. buffoon. dunderhead. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
On January 13 2010 14:14 TheAntZ wrote: you're an idiot if you think 1 gate robo is the safest pvt build. also, idiot. buffoon. dunderhead. depends on the map. 1 gate robo on python isnt that safe. on most modern maps it's pretty safe though. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On January 13 2010 14:36 lazz wrote: depends on the map. 1 gate robo on python isnt that safe. on most modern maps it's pretty safe though. not the safest possible though, which is what he was implying | ||
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Deleted User 48059
86 Posts
On January 13 2010 13:28 KwarK wrote: He's an idiot because the guy asked for safe builds and he said 4 gate goon and then he said that it autoloses to dt (ie is really unsafe) and then after acknowledging that it's really unsafe he says he doesn't know how safe it is. Evidently he has some serious problems with both comprehension of the question and, strangely enough, his own answer to the question. Idiot wasn't an insult in this context. It was a description. Well, I suppose. Again, not disagreeing with the point, just its delivery a little. And on consideration, there are worse things to call someone who suggests 4-gate goon. Though I do fondly remember using 4-gate in my first ever game of starcraft, against my friend in his second- or third ever game. Unfortunately he went like ~8 gate, and since we both had no macro skills he rolled over me with 2x as many Dragoons. I had an APM of 28. PS god, hangover o_0 | ||
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ItsBigfoot
United States432 Posts
@ Kwark - be nice, he didn't say to use that build, he said that he personally likes it and explained why. it might not be smart to do it every time, especially since dts are a D player's favorite unit, but it is an option. | ||
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