EPTVegetarian/Vegan Thread - Page 19
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Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits. | ||
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RawVeganYes
29 Posts
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RawVeganYes
29 Posts
On April 16 2011 16:32 Cambium wrote: This might be OT, but you keep on bringing this up, and the only "source" you provided was that video. Here are some sources stating that humans are omnivorous: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2697806 Cordain, Loren (2007). "Implications of Plio-pleistocene diets for modern humans". In Peter S. Ungar. Evolution of the human diet: the known, the unkown and the unknowable. pp. 264–5. How does this show our anatomy and phys. are designed to eat meat? It doesn't its a blurb with no real info. It says what humans ate then and now. Do you really need me to link a source other than the video to show that humans have flat teath, a plant eater intestines, plant eater saliva enzymes, plant eater jaw, plant eater hands (not claws), plant eater sweat glands. Just look in the mirror if the video isnt enough. On April 16 2011 16:28 CoR wrote: well my borther was vegetarian for 18 years, and vegan for i think 1 year (doesnt went to good for his health so turned it off) and now after 18 years he eats meat again. (only bio) i often think its kind of a "style" in life and nothing wrong in it as long they not force their childrens to be so. when i see parents let their childs be vegetarian its ok (i was vegetarian myself too before i was 14 years old because of my parents) but its not acceptable when they made them be vegan (for adult people its ok, not acceptable for childs they get rly unhealth and ill from it, even some parents in germany lost the right to grow up their childrens cause they only gave them vegan and then the childs was very ill) so my question: what do you think about parents making their childs vegetarian vegan etc ? I think that is silly to say that parents should not raise their kids vegan. Properly planned a vegan diet is fine for all stages of life. Hell even the FDA admits so. People are so terrified of something that is rare and that they are lead to believe is harmful somehow. The meat and dairy industires sure have done a good job of brainwashing people. It reminds me of that commercial where they are trying to tell use high fructose corn syrup is the EXACT same as pure truely unrefined cane sugar. Face palm. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
Chimpanzees seem to have a very closely related digestive system and eat something like 95% fruits and rest some insects and parts of cadavers. I remember a TV documentation where chimpanzees hunted down a monkey (they worked themselves up into some kind of blood frenzy) and ate parts of it. Chimpanzees actually have enough strength in their grip and in their arms to rip an animal apart and their teeth look more capable to eat raw meat than human teeth, but they still eat basically only fruits and nuts most of the time. About the life expectancy of humans throughout the ages, that all seemed to be around 35-40, after disregarding children under 15 years old. For hunter-gatherer and agricultural civilizations up to medieval times the numbers I found did not vary much. Life expectancy only started to go up about the time the Scientific Method was widely adopted and humanity got out of medieval times. About how fast evolution can kick in regarding digestion, I remember stuff about alcohol tolerance and lactose intolerance varying throughout the world, which has to be connected to stuff that happened after the stone age. So a little use of Google did not help me at all to get a pro-stone-age-diet recommendation despite the idea sounding neat at first. | ||
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RosaParksStoleMySeat
Japan926 Posts
On April 16 2011 15:27 RawVeganYes wrote: I'm not here to write a reseach paper and provide a list of links and essays. The internet is free. Chose to take out of it what you want. Google is your friend. Everything I mentioned can be found. Like I said many of the facts I stated about deforistation, the majority of main crops being used by factoring farms (soy, water, corn, grains, wheat) etc etc. Much of the data that reflects badly on the meat and dairy industries they even provide themselves. However, I spent 2 minutes and came up with 10 or so links about what factory farming does to the earth. Spend 2 hours and come up with 1 link telling me how factory farming and killing animals is heping anything. It's ok. I'll wait. As stated a few pages back. Providing links won't do anything. because some meat eat will just come with a link of info paid for by the dairy industry. The funny thing is the meat and dairy industries have something to gain. MONEY. Vegans are not trying to gain anything for themselves per se. We are trying to save lifes and the earth. http://www.belsandia.com/going-green-with-food.html http://www.vegan-nutritionista.com/causes-of-global-warming.html http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/nspills.asp http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-wastes-natural-resources.aspx http://www.stopcorporateabuse.org/factory-farms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism http://www.livablefutureblog.com/2009/08/how-much-does-us-livestock-production-contribute-to-greenhouse-gas-emissions/ http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm Heres some on health benefits of being Vegan. http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_foods.html http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/health-benefits-vegetarian-diet.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book) http://www.nursingdegree.net/blog/19/57-health-benefits-of-going-vegan/ http://library.thinkquest.org/C004833/health_en.shtml http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/updates/vegetarian_diets_health_benefits.php http://www.rawfoodhowto.com/ Link #1: "Your guide to a healthy, cruelty-free, and sustainable lifestyle!" Link #2: "Vegan-Nutritionist" Link #3: Never concludes that a vegan lifestyle is the answer, but rather we need better livestock raising practices. Link #4: Author fails to mention that American meat consumption trends are primarily caused by diets rich in foods that fuck with our leptin receptors causing insatiable hunger and driving the average American to consume 3800 calories/day. Link #5: PETA--didn't open. Link #6: More about the fast food industry than meat, and even the vegetables in this case are packed full of preservatives and devoid of fiber for extended shelf life. Stopped here, realized you had more links. Here we go... Link #1 on "health benefits": Assumes that saturated fat causes heart disease which has long been known to be untrue. Link #2 on "health benefits": Same, from a website called "vegetarian-info." Link #4 on "health benefits" (skipped Wikipedia): Same lipid hypothesis, long been known to be false. Also goes particularly retarded and says this: "Carbohydrates. Carbohydrates provide energy for your body. When you don’t have enough carbohydrates, your body will burn muscle tissue." ...THAT'S their second point? After that they just list a bunch of vitamins, further insulting my intelligence and implying that meat eaters don't ever eat vegetables too. Link #5 on "health benefits": Citations include "American Vegetarian," web links, absolutely no controlled studies, and a couple of dead links that I investigated further to find zero ways of accessing them on the web. Sorry, if I had more time I'd do the rest, but it's a busy time for me. I was hoping to get some decent information on the health benefits of being a vegetarian, or at least some conclusive reasoning as to why people go vegan, but all I got was trash based on trash and intellectual dead ends. I think that we both have something in common, to be fair. I am on a paleolithic diet rich in animal fats, protein, and vegetables, and without soy, grains, or other processed foods. You are on a vegan diet full of vegetables, soy, and grains. While we may have divergent opinions, I understand that both of our diets are drastically misunderstood and misrepresented, and that ironically puts us in somewhat of the same corner. I can sympathize with you for this. What bothers me about your post was the absolute trash sources you linked. I do not dislike you for your diet--it's your right to put whatever you want into your body. But, I cannot respect you for your academic integrity. | ||
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RawVeganYes
29 Posts
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RosaParksStoleMySeat
Japan926 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:01 RawVeganYes wrote: Lol. I understnad now why someone said providing links would not do any good. People just take the info and view it the way they want. ? I was very clear about the problems I had with your links, and you respond with "lol" and some crap about me twisting the words? I apologize for being a man who demands more than links to biased sources and broken information? I mean, I honestly don't know how to respond to this little snippet of yours. (Edit for your edit) As stated I had about 5 minutes or less and I came up with 20 links. I did so while at work. I'm sorry I did not have more time to come up with links to your liking I don't care if you post 50 links in 2 minutes. If they're all trash (which appears to be what you've come to admit), I'll remain unimpressed. | ||
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RawVeganYes
29 Posts
There are almost 0 links in this thread showing the positive benefits of eating meat and HOW IT IS GOOD FOR THE EARTH. So why dont you show me. What does meat do for the earth? You did not respond to the links I posted about factory farming, the resources it uses, what it does to the earth etc. I'll assume you realize that it is horrbile? | ||
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RosaParksStoleMySeat
Japan926 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:03 RawVeganYes wrote: So you debunked 20 links with about 1 paragraph or words? I wrote 430 words in that post. I could have probably done it in a single sentence if I wanted to, but I decided to give each link individual attention. For fun, here is that single sentence: Veganism is based on backless claims about the alleged negative effects of saturated fats and speculated positive effects of grains and soy, and is a lifestyle whose most zealous practitioners cannot even link one reasonable source to the health benefits and necessity of this diet which they always present. There are almost 0 links in this thread showing the positive benefits of eating meat and HOW IT IS GOOD FOR THE EARTH. So why dont you show me. What does meat do for the earth? You did not respond to the links I posted about factory farming, the resources it uses, what it does to the earth etc. I'll assume you realize that it is horrbile? Wait what? When exactly did I say that eating meat is good for the earth? I never accused you of promoting the farming practices that make all vegetables available 365 days a year and contribute significantly to global warming, so don't accuse me of trashing the earth alone. Also, I did respond to the link about factory farming. I said that those links themselves concluded we need more efficient farming practices and better technology--not a universal vegan diet. Honestly, with the world's population right now, we have plenty of problems with food, economy, and environment all clashing. I would love to think of reasonable options for how we can solve these problems that don't reduce to extreme and unhealthy lifestyle changes for people everywhere. | ||
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x-Catalyst
United States921 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23440 Posts
I don’t think anyone is a carnivore and in the purist meaning of it extremely few if not none are “vegan/vegetarian”. We all fall somewhere in the middle. The most important thing about the “vegan/vegetarian/organic/free range/raw food” movements is that its gotten some people to actually think about our diets and their effects on us and the environment. No one has a monopoly on the truth. There is no question that particularly in the USA that we need to take a serious look at everything we eat fruits, veggies and supplements included and keep an open mind that just because someone eats meat/animal products it doesn’t mean they are any less caring, knowledgable, or good than one who does not. All sides should refrain from the "holier than thou” type rhetoric in order to facilitate an honest discussion IMHumbleO | ||
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dANiELcanuck
Canada217 Posts
I'm curious what the vegetarian viewpoint is on all the plants and animals that are killed every time the farmers spray their crops? You can keep a blind eye turned when it benefits you I guess. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:15 dANiELcanuck wrote: I'm curious what the vegetarian viewpoint is on all the plants and animals that are killed every time the farmers spray their crops? You can keep a blind eye turned when it benefits you I guess. You have an error in reasoning here. To get beef you need to feed the cattle. And the crops used for feed are sprayed just the same. | ||
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frogurt
Australia907 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:15 dANiELcanuck wrote: I was hoping to get good information out of this thread and am sorely disappointed, not because I'm a vegetarian or thinking about converting in the slightest (I'm a meat eater and would live off of meat 100% if it was possible). I just want to understand the concept behind it, I don't want to hear lame excuses of saving animals and the like. I'm even a nature lover, I hate seeing animal habitat destroyed to make room for more human consumption, but I do love me some <insert animal here> on the BBQ. People have been eating meat since the dawn of time and I have no intention of changing that. It's true that everyone is different and depending on blood type you may not have sufficient enzymes to break meat down properly, but it's as simple as drinking something acidic to help break the meat down. Enough rambling from me. I'm curious what the vegetarian viewpoint is on all the plants and animals that are killed every time the farmers spray their crops? You can keep a blind eye turned when it benefits you I guess. For me that is the concept behind it, the liquidation of the milk and dairy industry will have positive ramifications for the enviroment and therefore animals. So you can't eat meat and be an animal lover because you are supporting an industry which exploits animals and has negative ramifications on the enviroment, or habitat as you put it. My personal experience is that it is also healthier but some people are on a quest to prove me wrong so i won't add that in there. And please don't judge all veganism on this convoluted discussion (by both sides), like you shouldn't judge any concept on internet arguements. | ||
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RawVeganYes
29 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:15 dANiELcanuck wrote: I was hoping to get good information out of this thread and am sorely disappointed, not because I'm a vegetarian or thinking about converting in the slightest (I'm a meat eater and would live off of meat 100% if it was possible). I just want to understand the concept behind it, I don't want to hear lame excuses of saving animals and the like. I'm even a nature lover, I hate seeing animal habitat destroyed to make room for more human consumption, but I do love me some <insert animal here> on the BBQ. People have been eating meat since the dawn of time and I have no intention of changing that. It's true that everyone is different and depending on blood type you may not have sufficient enzymes to break meat down properly, but it's as simple as drinking something acidic to help break the meat down. Enough rambling from me. I'm curious what the vegetarian viewpoint is on all the plants and animals that are killed every time the farmers spray their crops? You can keep a blind eye turned when it benefits you I guess. Local and organic? Raw? the fruits and veggies i eat are not sprayed with what your talking about. Maybe if you buy some mass produced dole bananas. But i have visited the farms where i get my food. And i have a local co op garden. None of that is going on. The difference between farmed veggies and farmed meat was covered a few pages back anyways. The farmed animals requires the farmed plant matter. For the 10th time. This is the middle man syndrome. We dont need to farm the animals. We can simply eat the plant matter ourselves lol. On April 16 2011 17:25 Ropid wrote: You have an error in reasoning here. To get beef you need to feed the cattle. And the crops used for feed are sprayed just the same. what this guy said. That about summed up what was said a few pages back. P.S. for anyone curious. I'm eating my RAW Vegan dinner right now. 1) 2 Raw vegan tacos (avacado for taco, lettuce for shell) spiced up with things the way i like it 2) 1 Tomato with a dash of raw sea salt 3) a small amount of raw jungle peanutes 4) some raw dried "nacho" kale chips 5) water soooo yummy. PPS for those thinking that going vegan or raw vegan costs money. I'm poor. This dinner is about $4. | ||
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dANiELcanuck
Canada217 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:25 Ropid wrote: You have an error in reasoning here. To get beef you need to feed the cattle. And the crops used for feed are sprayed just the same. I don't care about the animals and plants dying though, that's the difference. The land has already been clearcut and monocropped, it's already dead and unless everyone on the planet starts being a producer instead of a consumer we're never going to get rid of that problem. I grew up on a farm and live in a city now so I obviously don't have the land to support my family. You can grow some food aquaponically using sunlight through your windows, and I suggest it to anyone. This thread isn't about educating people on how to grow their own food, so I won't go any further on that subject. To the guy who said he buys his food locally, that's awesome and I respect you for that, it's how I was raised and I plan on returning to that lifestyle except I'll be eating local animals as well. | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On April 16 2011 17:37 dANiELcanuck wrote: I don't care about the animals and plants dying though, that's the difference. The land has already been clearcut and monocropped, it's already dead and unless everyone on the planet starts being a producer instead of a consumer we're never going to get rid of that problem. I grew up on a farm and live in a city now so I obviously don't have the land to support my family. You can grow some food aquaponically using sunlight through your windows, and I suggest it to anyone. This thread isn't about educating people on how to grow their own food, so I won't go any further on that subject. To the guy who said he buys his food locally, that's awesome and I respect you for that, it's how I was raised and I plan on returning to that lifestyle except I'll be eating local animals as well. Somewhere in this thread an article about a scientific report was linked about what the most efficient use of land would be (they looked at the land in New York state, the state their university is in). http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/oct07/diets.ag.footprint.sl.html This would be a vegetarian diet with dairy products and a little bit of meat. Basically, it would only be the amount of dairy and meat you could produce with the grass that grows on the farmers' crop fields in the years they have to let their field rest. The land use of the most carnivorous lifestyle they looked at was five times higher than what a vegetarian diet would use. | ||
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bahl sofs tiil
United States233 Posts
On April 16 2011 15:17 CorporationsRule wrote: People shrank in areas where the agricultural revolution took hold. You know those moments when you realize public school has failed you once again? Because this stupid bastard is right: cavemen were just as big as we are today. So, I decide to read and find out why. Apparently, "small scale agriculturalists" see the same benefits (page 121) Plus, there's evidence that the paleolithic man ate grains in parts of the world. The secret to health appears to be fresh, non-processed foods and exercise. Not much of a secret. Also, this: On April 16 2011 05:44 CorporationsRule wrote: Part of the evolutionary diet perspective is to admit that we can never fully understand anything in science because the world is infinitely complex, so to be able to say "after analyzing milk I think it has everything you need" even though it is not what we evolved eating (after being weened from our mother's breast milk of course) is not something that can ever be completely proven. is still the dumbest, most head-in-the-sand rationalization. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
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nepeta
1872 Posts
On April 12 2011 03:10 frogurt wrote: Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. -- Albert Einstein If I had to choose, I'd go with the nuclear physics stuff he invented, a-bombs are a whole of a lot quicker than converting the world population into veggies. Who cares if we'd get 12 billion vegetarians instead of 7 billions mostly meat-eaters, they'd still want i-pads and priuses to heave their vegetarian oil-asses around :p | ||
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