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Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits. |
moral, definitely. If you want to eat healthy you only need to eat healthy food, not necessarily stop eating meat altogether.
Personaly im a 'normal' vegetarian : no meat no fish no gelatine, i however eat milk and eggs.
On a random note you also have pollo-vegetarians. Which eat no meat except for chicken *.*
made me lol when i first heard about it :D
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On April 18 2011 02:17 Deja Thoris wrote:
Red kidney bean hotpot (Didn't check if its been posted before but I find this delicious and nutritious) It's kind of a "red" theme
You need, 2 shallots (red onions), 2 tins red kidney beans, garlic, 2 red peppers. 2 cans of tomatos, a packet of mushrooms, garlic and some form of thickener such as maize paste.
Prepare the veggies by slicing, dicing etc and then pan fry the onions in a little water. Then add the peppers and fry for just a minute or two to soften a little. Add all other ingredients except the mushrooms and thickener, dont forget to add the tomato juice!
Add some water (less than a soup or stew but enough to cook in) and leave to cook for about 15 minutes, add the mushrooms. Leave to cook for another 5 minutes and add thickener to the juice. Serve and enjoy (yeah I did it from *poor* memory) but I always fins this really tasty, especially at winter time.
Sounds really good! Rather hot, I suppose?
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[QUOTE]On April 18 2011 04:48 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 12 2011 03:44 Torte de Lini wrote:
On a random note you also have pollo-vegetarians. Which eat no meat except for chicken *.*
made me lol when i first heard about it :D
[/QUOTE]
yeh same as pescetarians and similar bs...
vegan greetings from austria 
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On April 18 2011 04:34 VIB wrote:
Turns out, just like you said, it was actually much easier than I thought to make sure you're eating all your daily needs. At least compared to what I usually already eat.
Yes, the reason you can't readily find is is a), it's not needed and b) it is not easy to calculate.
Best site I found is this one:
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre00health.html
It has a sample of essential amino acids in some foods.
Note that no vegetable is deficient in an essential amino acid. They are just limited. Now I don't know if this can be overcome by just eating a whole lot. Digestion can be a bit of a complex process.
As a vegetarian you still have dairy. But for a vegan it probably is reason to eat more beans/legumes than you normally want, if you don't have a liking for them, just because you know this may be one of the first potential weak point in your diet.
If you read wikipedia you see that researchers actually had to create special food for their test subjects to get them to suffer amino acid deficiency. It seems it is not easy to get it.
The whole protein 'myth' comes from when people knew that individual vegetables were limited in some amino acids and they thought you had to ate two meals, that were incomplete in protein within powers, within a few hours for them to be able to overlap. If they were say 8 or 12 hours apart, the body would no longer be able to use the protein from both meals together, the theory said.
Now after more research we know this isn't really a problem for several reasons and the person originally proposing this idea has changed her mind.
If you are a vegan you would be more worried about B12.
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So right now I have stopped eating meat but I still eat fish (semi-veggie?). Meat used to be some really quick energy, one steak and potatoes and then I was full. Almost the same with fish, a piece of fish with potatoes and I'm full. But I have more problems making dinners for my 190cm (6"2) body when trying to be completely veggie. A can of beans is Way to few calories for a dinner for me. Which makes me just increasing the carbs a lot, but I don't want to go in that direction and just tons of carbs.
Those of you in this thread who have a high need of calories, what proteins do you usually eat?
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I really suggest those that are getting into the whole vegetarian/vegan thing do alot of research. There are some vitamins that are normally derived from meat consumption that you need to be able to get on your new way of eating.
The challenge is to replace the fat/protein you would have gotten with nutrient dense equivalents. Bread/rice/beans/pasta are loaded with starch and you can't just eat more of that and expect to be healthier - you need to eat stuff with just as much nutrients per calorie. Leafy veggies, and low sugar fruits (berries). Sugar/starches = insulin response = fat/metabolic syndrome/heart disease.
Replacing your typical bagel with a root vegetable (beets/sweet potatoes) that has more nutrients would be a great idea too.
I work with a vegetarian and I've seen him wreck his body. Okay so no meat - lets depend on soda/candy/chocolate for sustenance instead O_o.
I follow a low carbohydrate diet (and feel great!) but I eat my leafy veggies and like them too. To each their own but I do want to note that the moral "lets save the world" justification for vegetarianism is overblown. Conventional mono-culture agriculture is just as environmentally destructive (if not more so) than animal husbandry. The juicy strawberries you see in the market place were grown on a piece of land that was smothered with plastic (to prevent weeds) and hosed down with pesticides. Grass fed beef is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture and is being used to reverse desertification in Africa.
If you want to make a difference, support a local organic farmer. The meat and/or vegetables you get from them will be far superior in nutrients and will have the lowest carbon impact.
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On April 16 2011 22:04 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 16:09 RawVeganYes wrote:
If by luxury lifesyle you mean cheaper than eating meat? Ya it is. Last time I checked an apple was cheaper than a piece of meat. Hell a bunch of bananas is cheaper than meat. Someone made a comment on a different vegan thread be4 it got closed about how poor countries would laugh at the thought of being vegan and that it is a luxury. That comment made me want to face palm. Eating Vegan is far less expensive than eating a meat diet. Fruits and veggies are found in every part of every country. Refraining from eating meat only takes willpower and the awareness to stop. A small amount. Vietnam and India among other countries have a good amount of veggie/vegan population.
Supplements are not required with very minimal research. Idk why your calling a vitamin a pill like its crack or something. It's just silly.
For reference I am a 10 year vegan. 9 years of which have been raw vegan. Doctors and tests says I could not be much healthier. Am I superman? No. Humans are born plant eaters. The diet and lifestyle requires some amount planning. Like any diet should. By "a luxury lifestyle" I mean a lifestyle you can only live in our overly rich western countries. Try living a vegan lifestyle in eastern Europe, central Asia or Africa and you'll die of malnutrition before long. I've absolutely got nothing against a vegetarian lifestyle, a lot of people throughout the world live that way. I'm not a vegetarian myself but I love my vegetables. Veganism, on the other hand, is comparable to islamism or orthodox christianity: a small group of people with rather extreme and unhealthy ideas. If you need to resort to pills and vitamins to keep your diet healthy, you know you're doing something wrong. Pills nowadays are generally a solution to the symptom, not to the problem.
Please read again. Vietnam and India among other countries have a good size veggie/vegan population. Some of the poorist people from the poorist countries in the world are veggie cuz of religion. Again fruits and veggies costs less than meat. Stop spreading lies. It's not a luxury lifestyle. As I said in a previous post I am dirt poor and I am RAW VEGAN. It is as simple as doing minimal research and then eating. Fruits and veggies grow all over the world. You are in denial.
On April 18 2011 05:31 rayout wrote:
I really suggest those that are getting into the whole vegetarian/vegan thing do alot of research. There are some vitamins that are normally derived from meat consumption that you need to be able to get on your new way of eating.
The challenge is to replace the fat/protein you would have gotten with nutrient dense equivalents. Bread/rice/beans/pasta are loaded with starch and you can't just eat more of that and expect to be healthier - you need to eat stuff with just as much nutrients per calorie. Leafy veggies, and low sugar fruits (berries). Sugar/starches = insulin response = fat/metabolic syndrome/heart disease.
Replacing your typical bagel with a root vegetable (beets/sweet potatoes) that has more nutrients would be a great idea too.
I work with a vegetarian and I've seen him wreck his body. Okay so no meat - lets depend on soda/candy/chocolate for sustenance instead O_o.
For the 16th time. A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem.
Also I can't believe there are people here still trying to argue that factory farming animals does not hurt the environment and it's people. If you want to eat meat fine, thats your choice. But stop denying the impact it has on the earth. Obviously with the "im only 1 person what can i do mentality" nothing is going to get done. Fine. Then get out of the way of the people who are actually doing something for this earth.
Factory farmed animimals consume a huge portion of the worlds main crops (soy, corn, wheat, cereal), are the #1 polluter of clean lakes and rivers, contribute to green house gasses, the #1 cause of deforistation, on and on etc etc the list goes on. Please people its common sense. We feed these animals a huge portion of the worlds plant matter and then murder eat the animals. As i repeated several times before this is the "middle man syndrome" We do not need to feed factory farmed animals plant matter, and then eat the animals.
Someone comparing factory farmed animals to farmed veggies is insane. As stated before the factory farmed animals require exponentially more resources, land, and harmful effetcs than fruits and veggies. This is not debatable. It's a fact.
To get that cow you eat, you need to feed it an insane amount of plant matter.
We can simple eat the plant matter and water ourselves.
The harmful effects and wasted resources of the "middle man" are not needed.
If someone cant see this logic. You are either in denial or need to sign up for a logic 101 course.
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Grass fed beef is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture and is being used to reverse desertification in Africa.
Really? I thought this was responsible for like infinite deforestation in South america. Maybe in some climates it is sustainable, but especially where water is scarce I am not sure. And with the weight ratio of feed/beef being like 20/1, it is not efficient at all. I think small scale animal husbandry is obviously normal and fine, but once you take it to an insane macro level it is environmentally damaging. But I agree that today's industrialized veggie production is a nightmare too. Have any of you seen the documentary "our daily bread"? There are no words, simply video of the fields and factories where our food is produced. it is pretty amazing/troubling. I think organic food is very important, but sadly not so easy to find. Small scale farmers are virtually extinct in the western world now 
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On April 18 2011 05:31 rayout wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I really suggest those that are getting into the whole vegetarian/vegan thing do alot of research. There are some vitamins that are normally derived from meat consumption that you need to be able to get on your new way of eating.
The challenge is to replace the fat/protein you would have gotten with nutrient dense equivalents. Bread/rice/beans/pasta are loaded with starch and you can't just eat more of that and expect to be healthier - you need to eat stuff with just as much nutrients per calorie. Leafy veggies, and low sugar fruits (berries). Sugar/starches = insulin response = fat/metabolic syndrome/heart disease.
Replacing your typical bagel with a root vegetable (beets/sweet potatoes) that has more nutrients would be a great idea too.
I work with a vegetarian and I've seen him wreck his body. Okay so no meat - lets depend on soda/candy/chocolate for sustenance instead O_o.
I follow a low carbohydrate diet (and feel great!) but I eat my leafy veggies and like them too. To each their own but I do want to note that the moral "lets save the world" justification for vegetarianism is overblown. Conventional mono-culture agriculture is just as environmentally destructive (if not more so) than animal husbandry. The juicy strawberries you see in the market place were grown on a piece of land that was smothered with plastic (to prevent weeds) and hosed down with pesticides. Grass fed beef is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture and is being used to reverse desertification in Africa.
If you want to make a difference, support a local organic farmer. The meat and/or vegetables you get from them will be far superior in nutrients and will have the lowest carbon impact.
That post was pointless. It just repeats arguments that were already brought up by others in this thread. Additionally, all arguments are wrong and misinformed.
First of all, there really is no need to do a lot of research if you just do a Mediterranean, Indian or Japanese diet. This is all stuff that has been proven in practice to be okay food that does not make you die, and has been consumed for a far longer time than the current diets of mass produced meat every day.
While Japanese and Indian cooking may use exotic ingredients, which you will not find in Western supermarkets, all stuff for Italian cooking should be available.
About the heart disease conclusion: the Mediterranean diet was looked at in scientific research in the first place because it is what the people with the least amount of diseases on Earth have used.
The vegetarian you work with does not really sound like a vegetarian to me. Chances are the candy he eats actually has ingredients out of dead animals in it (btw: in the Mediterranean diet, sweets are stuff that should only be consumed once a week).
Monoculture is the most uninvolved way to produce stuff because problems are fixed through chemicals, and giant monoculture farms get the most out of big machines. This causes the cheapest price for grains with that method, and that means that the cheapest meat will also be produced with crops from that and will not be from grass fed cattle.
The thing is, feeding a vegetarian needs only a fraction of the land that is needed for someone that wants steaks or meat-balls at lunch every day (fraction = about one fifth the land). So if you are criticizing monoculture farming you are actually not producing an argument for meat.
The strawberries you mention are the ones sold in winter. 
Grass fed cattle is cool in my book, but it is not enough for the current average meat consumption per person (in the Mediterranean diet, which is from a time before meat was mass produced, meat comes up once a month).
The local organic farmer should of course get your money, if you have enough.
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On April 18 2011 06:20 Rishinz wrote:Show nested quote +Grass fed beef is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture and is being used to reverse desertification in Africa. Really? I thought this was responsible for like infinite deforestation in South america. Maybe in some climates it is sustainable, but especially where water is scarce I am not sure. And with the weight ratio of feed/beef being like 20/1, it is not efficient at all. I think small scale animal husbandry is obviously normal and fine, but once you take it to an insane macro level it is environmentally damaging. But I agree that today's industrialized veggie production is a nightmare too. Have any of you seen the documentary "our daily bread"? There are no words, simply video of the fields and factories where our food is produced. it is pretty amazing/troubling. I think organic food is very important, but sadly not so easy to find. Small scale farmers are virtually extinct in the western world now
Of course raising the wrong species in the wrong environment would be detrimental. For the Midwest and African grassland however, ruminant species play a key role in the environment. Operation Hope won the Buckminster Fuller Prize in 2010 for using cattle as a means of sustenance for the local people and as a way to restore the environment by acting as a surrogate for the greatly reduced populations of other ruminants (water buffalo, antelope, etc.): http://challenge.bfi.org/winner_2010
Actually most cattle are raised on open grassland. This is very sustainable and there isn't an issue about "feed efficiency". The cattle eat grass and poop - this poop happens to be very good for growing new grass. The problem arises with conventionally raised cattle is that the last month or so of their lives they get shoved into a "CAFO"s (concentrated animal feeding operation) which consists of them standing in their own feces eating grain and agricultural waste products (cotton, corn husks, expired candy...yeah). This causes them to put on the pounds for slaughter. It is a miserable existence. The environmental challenge this poses is the fact that there is a bunch of concentrated manure that cannot be handled by the environment. It becomes a contaminant.
Also can we stop with the feed efficiency issue? Animals are predominantly fed the by-products of other agricultural products. This includes corn stalks, cotton mill waste, etc. Pigs are fed just about anything actually...I remember seeing a pig farm outside Las Vegas that got fed left overs from all the buffets. They really liked the left over ice cream if I remember correctly No one is growing strawberries and tomatoes for animal feed.
As far as sustainable options, farmer's markets are popping up in most suburbs. Also try eatwild.com - this is a great repository for eating organic. I'll be getting a quarter share of grass finished cattle this fall.
My grandfather (before his hip fracture) pretty much survived on food he grew (big garden!) and caught (fish). He's someone I definitely want to emulate. Hunting and fishing are probably the best way to ensure that your meat had almost no carbon foot print. The money you pay for your licenses supports preservation and conservation programs. Hunters probably care more for the environment and animals than any other subset (except the hardcore PETA crowd). They demand that more land is conserved for hunting and that species be maintained - I don't know what more you can ask for.
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On April 18 2011 06:20 Rishinz wrote:Show nested quote +Grass fed beef is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture and is being used to reverse desertification in Africa. Really? I thought this was responsible for like infinite deforestation in South america. Maybe in some climates it is sustainable, but especially where water is scarce I am not sure. And with the weight ratio of feed/beef being like 20/1, it is not efficient at all. I think small scale animal husbandry is obviously normal and fine, but once you take it to an insane macro level it is environmentally damaging. But I agree that today's industrialized veggie production is a nightmare too. Have any of you seen the documentary "our daily bread"? There are no words, simply video of the fields and factories where our food is produced. it is pretty amazing/troubling. I think organic food is very important, but sadly not so easy to find. Small scale farmers are virtually extinct in the western world now
It may be responsible for the deforestation in the Amazon Rainforest, but I don't know if that has anything to do with meat consumption in NA or Europe. The only meat I see in the supermarket is from European butcheries, frozen Argentinian steak and NZ lamb, though I do not know if sick stuff like shipping the cattle alive to Europe is done.
Traditionally, meat was only something special that was eaten perhaps once a week or so, and crappy parts of the animal used for broth, so I guess that would be the most that can be produced without today's methods.
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My friend is a 'vegetarian' but eats chicken and fish: how can I convince her she's not a vegetarian? She seems to think she has a moral monopoly over me because I like steak, and it pisses me off because she is - infact - no better. >.>
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On April 18 2011 06:47 Ropid wrote:That post was pointless. It just repeats arguments that were already brought up by others in this thread. Additionally, all arguments are wrong and misinformed. First of all, there really is no need to do a lot of research if you just do a Mediterranean, Indian or Japanese diet. This is all stuff that has been proven in practice to be okay food that does not make you die, and has been consumed for a far longer time than the current diets of mass produced meat every day. While Japanese and Indian cooking may use exotic ingredients, which you will not find in Western supermarkets, all stuff for Italian cooking should be available. About the heart disease conclusion: the Mediterranean diet was looked at in scientific research in the first place because it is what the people with the least amount of diseases on Earth have used. The vegetarian you work with does not really sound like a vegetarian to me. Chances are the candy he eats actually has ingredients out of dead animals in it (btw: in the Mediterranean diet, sweets are stuff that should only be consumed once a week). Monoculture is the most uninvolved way to produce stuff because problems are fixed through chemicals, and giant monoculture farms get the most out of big machines. This causes the cheapest price for grains with that method, and that means that the cheapest meat will also be produced with crops from that and will not be from grass fed cattle. The thing is, feeding a vegetarian needs only a fraction of the land that is needed for someone that wants steaks or meat-balls at lunch every day (fraction = about one fifth the land). So if you are criticizing monoculture farming you are actually not producing an argument for meat. The strawberries you mention are the ones sold in winter. Grass fed cattle is cool in my book, but it is not enough for the current average meat consumption per person (in the Mediterranean diet, which is from a time before meat was mass produced, meat comes up once a month). The local organic farmer should of course get your money, if you have enough.
The diets you cite also are exemplary in their low sugar consumption which may be a princpial reason they have less heart disease. Gary Taubes' recent NY Times article hits a bit on this but you can learn more in his books like Good Calories, Bad Calories.
We should note that grass land is not exactly the best place to grow tomatoes. We should take into consideration the quality of land in question. I think we all agree that the current US agricultural system makes absolutely no sense - why the heck are people growing corn in the middle of a desert in Arizona?
Some climates are conducive to animal husbandry. Others are more suited to agriculture, others for aqua-culture. That is why native diets vary from the nearly 100% carnivore in Inuit diet to a more vegetarian Indian diet (and I think it is amazing that the human body can handle this variety). Tropical environments are incredibly conducive to high yield plants and fruit trees so it makes sense there for suer. I think folks are turning a blind eye to this fact. Sometimes it is more environmentally friendly to have cows feed on a grassland than to kill all the grass that is there and then build a water well to irrigate corn.
Grass finished meat is about twice the price of grain finished meat. I say finished because most cattle is grass fed then finished in feeding operations designed to fatten them for market. Much of the price difference accounts for the amount of fat the animals put on eating grain. Grain and other starchy carbohydrates are fattening - I just want to emphasize for the folks that want to go vegetarian to be aware of this fact - what makes cows fat will make you fat too :D
Also there is nothing to stop you from growing your own food. I really buy into the whole urban homesteader movement - I think anyone can grow at least some of what they will be eating. Some vegetables are pretty darn hardy and easy to grow. Plant some mint and watch it fight with your lawn. Garlic is a great option too - very few disease or pests will go after it.
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Hey, Iwas quite suprised to see this thread...german vegan reporting in =)
btw I'm searching for some ppl to play SC2 with me, since none of my friends want to...they can't stop playin WoW-.-
I'm silver on EU Server right now...but still not winning much games so I need some training buddies and ppl to whine about toss op together. since I'm 28 yo, I would prefer ppl around that age =) and if u are vegan or vegetarian that would be even better...no requirement though.
just pm me or write me ingame "Franticore".
thx for reading, have a nice day =)
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On April 18 2011 07:02 Cranberries wrote:
My friend is a 'vegetarian' but eats chicken and fish: how can I convince her she's not a vegetarian? She seems to think she has a moral monopoly over me because I like steak, and it pisses me off because she is - infact - no better. >.>
Well, when I was little, my mother sometimes bought a chicken that still had organs inside. If she would see the work involved in cooking with that as raw material, rummaging inside the carcass to rip out the organs, it would convince her, I bet.
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On April 18 2011 07:01 Ropid wrote:
It may be responsible for the deforestation in the Amazon Rainforest, but I don't know if that has anything to do with meat consumption in NA or Europe. The only meat I see in the supermarket is from European butcheries, frozen Argentinian steak and NZ lamb, though I do not know if sick stuff like shipping the cattle alive to Europe is done.
Traditionally, meat was only something special that was eaten perhaps once a week or so, and crappy parts of the animal used for broth, so I guess that would be the most that can be produced without today's methods.
The "crappy" parts were definitely eaten - they are why sausages are so delicious :D
I am really saddened by the squeemishness of most people here in America in trying organ meats or other foods made from them. Unfortunately the foodie epidemic and the growth of minority populations that know how to prepare and eat offal has still raised prices
Organ meats are extremely rich sources of vitamins and nutrients. If someone was going a 100% carnivore diet they would need to eat these other bits to survive.
The desire for protein is always present - your body needs it to survive. Whether this was accomplished from fishing from the river or milking the cow depended on what culture you happened to live in.
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On April 18 2011 07:15 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:02 Cranberries wrote:
My friend is a 'vegetarian' but eats chicken and fish: how can I convince her she's not a vegetarian? She seems to think she has a moral monopoly over me because I like steak, and it pisses me off because she is - infact - no better. >.> Well, when I was little, my mother sometimes bought a chicken that still had organs inside. If she would see the work involved in cooking with that as raw material, rummaging inside the carcass to rip out the organs, it would convince her, I bet.
There is nothing gross about meat. It is delicious and so are all the parts inside - this is purely a social indoctrination thing. I find it reminiscent of the whole "untouchable" cast in India.
There is no dirty food. Durian is the stinkiest fruit and I love it. Same goes for stinky tofu.
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Becoming vegan was the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'd recommend it to anyone.
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On April 18 2011 07:02 Cranberries wrote:
My friend is a 'vegetarian' but eats chicken and fish: how can I convince her she's not a vegetarian? She seems to think she has a moral monopoly over me because I like steak, and it pisses me off because she is - infact - no better. >.>
Don't try to convince her. If she heard the logic you probably already told her and still thinks she is morally better, don't argue with logic again. This is more a relationship issue - you have to tell her how you FEEL when she judges you like this. Not the logic/reasoning side.
On another note, I refuse to read anything on the debates here. I keep opening this thread upon updates hoping to see some interesting stories, tasty recipes, etc. but instead it's so full of arguing :/
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I have been a vegetarian my whole life - (22 years) and have never had any serious diet-related health issues. I eat mainly indian and italian cuisine and love it. There is an incredible variety of tastes and styles, I have learned how to use an absolute arsenal of spices and herbs, and I have never felt in any way that I missed something by not eating meat. Food and cooking are a big part of my life since I am a part time cook. I often cook for 50-60 people.
I suppose I am vegetarian for a huge list of reasons - religious, moral, ecological, health-related, and the lifestyle I was raised in, but its not like I am really that conscious of all these factors. the bottom line is that vegetarian food, when done right, can be absolutely delicious. If you take some time to learn to actually cook - not just heat up store bought meals - there are literally hundreds of dishes you can make. from what I have heard, plain meat is just as bland as as plain veges, most of the taste is added. And there is no doubt in my mind that a vegetarian diet is much healthier. to people who ask about protein I always say "Look at elephants/gorillas/bulls etc. Do you think a vegetarian diet makes them weak and malnourished?" I know that you cant exactly compare their requirements with ours, but it is a great point. And there is nothing in meat that has not come from plants.
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