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We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka |
On November 29 2011 06:47 Juanald wrote:
am i the only one to think this article was unfairly biased agianst EG.. so a couple players are in a slump on EG the writer uses that as an excuse to call for an end to their practice with starcraft titans idra machine axslave and puma... sounds more like jealousy then anything to me tbhimho. i remember a long time ago liquid tyler was in a slump and now look at him exceding expectations. let strifecrow spread hi wings ims sure hell turn a few heads next MLG.
Yes, you are the only one. You are also posting on the first page of the thread, and there have been no other replies discussing the EG section of the article. It's a good thing you pointed out this bias that no one else saw, otherwise we would not be able to have a discussion about it...
Seriously. You don't have to read every post. You can just skim here and there, and you would see that your point has already been articulated much better by other people. I'm not saying you shouldn't contribute, but starting off with "am I the only one" looks incredibly bad when you are posting on page 17 of a thread that has been having this discussion for the last 15 or so pages.
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On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote:I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs. - I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
- The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
- I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
- iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off. I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else. On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future. P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
This response doesn't address any of the relevant criticism to your original write-up. The issue isn't that you expressed your opinion or whether or not this is the appropriate forum to do so. Furthermore, there is no need to clarify your position, I don't think anyone found it ambiguous.
The problem with your write-up is that: (i) you are quite egregious with which facts you pick and choose. Over the last few months the number of positive results for EG far exceeds the negative, yet you only focus on the negative results. (ii) The criteria you establish for the EG house to be successful is so harsh that every Korean house would be judged a failure by this standard.
Furthermore, the original post contained a factual error (you referred to EG's performance at Orlando as a bad) and childish comments (claiming that EG "always manages to scrape together good PR" and telling EG that "they need to get their shit together"). I don't take offense with your opinion, only that you argued it in such a poor and immature fashion.
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On November 29 2011 03:17 fishuu wrote:
Meko's CSS stuff is still badass. Love the black and white photos too, Bomber is freaking adorable in those.
Good to see my photos finally got posted and that people like em!
Bomber was surprisingly more photogenic than I'd thought he'd be. I have to say I'm not nearly as proud of those club shots as I am of my other shots, though. The lighting in there was atrocious to deal with :X
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I respect your right to an opinion, I disagree with your opinion however.
The best run at MLG was vileIllusion, Haypro's run was amazing, but overhyped. Illusion deserves a lot more credit.
I think the EG House part is correct in some regards, but also a little harsh. I agree, the lesser players of EG need to be stepping it up, but that does not mean the house has not benefitted others. (or them for that matter)
Jinro's run at MLG will always be my favorite and Leenock's the most impressive , Naniwa's was 99% 4 gate and then a few decent series against good foreigners. Leenock did it against easily 3+ of the top 10 players in the world.
Some of your major upsets are incredibly incorrect, and you are missing some of the real upsets.
-my opinion
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On November 29 2011 01:01 MisterTea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 00:49 Grend wrote:On November 29 2011 00:41 Sphen5117 wrote:On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote:
pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf. This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check. How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training? Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant. Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp. The staff should be free to write what they want. Enough with the hurting esports posts.. If EG really wanted to maximise their players' potential the house would be in Korea imo. Idra and puma were both really good before the team house came into play, the point of the op's article about it was that the lower tier of players are not getting any better at all, i'd say they are getting worse. no need to get so anal about it it's true
That's the thing though. You're expecting solid change at the highest level to happen in only a couple of months. Be realistic. There's a reason sports dynasties happen, like the Cowboys or the Bulls of the 90's. Neither one of those came about because of a couple months of hard practice. SC2 as a sport isn't even in its infancy yet, it's soooo freaking new. How on EARTH could an environment tailored to improve your play be a bad decision? It's not about TL being able to post anything. That's fine. To have a true arbiter or voice in any community it has to be third party, and even though this site is affiliated with a team, certain pockets within it may reach that, sure. But that doesn't excuse ignorance, which is what that paragraph was.
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Holy shitstorm batman. I mean, seriously. They guy's not bashing. The guy's not hating. The bit about the EG house was tamer than any Live Report thread I've ever visited, not to mention the rampant player bashing that goes on on Reddit. It was a simple reflection on the results some of EG's players have been putting up. Which, quite frankly, have been rather dismal. I love iNcontrol, and Axslav, Strifeco, et al. are great players. But that the results haven't been there for them is a simple statement of fact. I could say the same for lots of players - Jinro and Tyler come to mind - but many of these seem to be in the process of addressing their practice regimen and improving once again. However, when you have these players, more than half of EG's team, who haven't been performing as well as they ought to be, given their talent, and who are all living at the team house, then either the teamhouse itself, or the way they're practicing within the teamhouse needs to be evaluated. If EG, or their players, weren't prepared to take these steps, then I'd say that they should thank Confusedcrib for bringing up the subject, because it will help their team to grow and achieve in the future.
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The elephant in the room for the EG house is that aside from Puma, Idra, HuK, and Demuslim their roster has a dearth of talent and potential. I don't view EG's inability to cultivate skill from the bottom tier of the roster as an inherent training problem, rather a reflection of the talent they are working with. This is not a knock on the players as humans, solely as sc2 professionals. I rather enjoy dropping by Machines stream and on occasion will watch Incontrol.
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Great write up CRIB. I agree with pretty much everything you said and pointed out. I have been waiting for someone to say what I and im sure tons of others have been thinking. Thank you!
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I agree. It will be unfortunate if TL has their internal meeting and decides to put on 'kid gloves' and have each future article hand out free digital flowers and rainbows.
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Loved MLG Providence.
Long live eSports!
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On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote:
i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Thank you, This is pretty much what i got out of it.
Not to mention Leenock only "really" went 2-1 with MMA. He beat DRG in a best of 7 after coming back from being down 0-2.
I guess you can look at the Naniwa series with Leenock going 2-1 with him in the first 3 games, but that's kinda a stretch in my mind, seeing as for the best of 7 he went 4 - 1.
The way the article talked about it made it seem like, Leenock was dropping games left and right to everybody and just lucked out. When in reality only 3 players took games off him.
Honestly though in some ways coming back, from an 0-2 deficit like that vs Drg makes his run even more epic.
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On November 29 2011 07:42 OpticalPhonon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote:I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs. - I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
- The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
- I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
- iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off. I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else. On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future. P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra. This response doesn't address any of the relevant criticism to your original write-up. The issue isn't that you expressed your opinion or whether or not this is the appropriate forum to do so. Furthermore, there is no need to clarify your position, I don't think anyone found it ambiguous. The problem with your write-up is that: (i) you are quite egregious with which facts you pick and choose. Over the last few months the number of positive results for EG far exceeds the negative, yet you only focus on the negative results. (ii) The criteria you establish for the EG house to be successful is so harsh that every Korean house would be judged a failure by this standard. Furthermore, the original post contained a factual error (you referred to EG's performance at Orlando as a bad) and childish comments (claiming that EG "always manages to scrape together good PR" and telling EG that "they need to get their shit together"). I don't take offense with your opinion, only that you argued it in such a poor and immature fashion.
This is an incredible post. Kudos!
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I really think there's a difference that needs to be established here. If this were an opinion piece like the "Elephant in the Room" piece a while back, with that sentence pasted everywhere about how "The opinions expressed in this article do not reflect the opinions of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or its team" we'd be handling a completely different situation.
Because looking at it from Incontrol's point of view, he just got shit on by the largest SC2 website around. He didn't just get shit on by confusedcrib. Confusedcrib just wrote it down, Teamliquid actually endorsed it by posting it without any qualifications. It even had "Teamliquid coverage" in the upper corner of the first image. The idea that it comes from Teamliquid then leads to this shitstorm, because it makes Teamliquid look hypocritical. Just because Ret, Sheth, Hero, and Haypro get back on somewhat of a role, they can start shitting on EG for subpar results? What?
I'd like to say that there just needed to be a beginning sentence about how TL doesn't support the opinion pieces, but we all know that wouldn't have worked. A beginning paragraph by anyone separate from the author saying "Hey, we don't necessarily agree." would have fixed this before it even happened.
If you guys are seriously looking at this internally, I'd say that's all you have to do. Don't put on kids gloves, let your opinion writers pull an Tastosis and call crappy play for what it is. But just be careful to make it perfectly clear that you don't necessarily support the position.
To get to the substance, though, at least the awards were playful. That whole piece on EG had rings of truth, and was in no way half as bad as the average post on the forums about the same issue, but come on. A piece on TL shitting on EG for a group of their lower rung players having subpar results? I understand that you set up the difference because EG has an American training house and TL doesn't, but it doesn't matter. EG has, objectively, gathered better results since the house opened up. Maybe not a win for every tournament, but Incontrol in particular has this different air to him. His run through the Open Bracket wasn't anything to shit on at all.
And if you want to get into it, what about every Korean house ever? They all have higher level players that outperform the rest by far and away. Are they failures? Or are they successful because they live in Korea?
I love TL loads. I have their team picture as one of the background pictures my laptop switches between. Tyler and Jinro are my favorites. I was as pumped as anyone to hear Haypro fucking legitimately beat Nestea. But you can't just turn a blind eye when shitting on a team that many have built into TL's rivals for poor results. It just doesn't look good for anyone involved.
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United States369 Posts
On November 29 2011 07:45 silverfire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:17 fishuu wrote:
Meko's CSS stuff is still badass. Love the black and white photos too, Bomber is freaking adorable in those. Good to see my photos finally got posted and that people like em! Bomber was surprisingly more photogenic than I'd thought he'd be. I have to say I'm not nearly as proud of those club shots as I am of my other shots, though. The lighting in there was atrocious to deal with :X
Those photos were seriously gorgeous! Thank you for taking them :D
I think Bomber's totally photogenic, but I'm probably biased 'cause he's my favorite ... so ... yeah :D;
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Katowice25012 Posts
After thought and discussion, I realize that section of the article was far too hasty. I've edited in a note to emphasize this is not the official opinion of TL, and that it is my fault as editor that it went out with a slant too heavy for a news piece. This should have been reviewed more carefully and been given a more fair look at the issue, this kind of cursory glance is certainly far from the kind of quality that I try to uphold when looking at events.
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"To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. "
Practice is important, but when are people going to realize, the rest of EG besides Puma, Idra and Huk just lack the talent and mechanics, they would have to put in more practice than anyone else.
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Leenock too young to drink, so they shove him with pizza
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The only beef I have with that section of the article is that it seems out of place. I would fully support it as an editorial. EG has done a lot in taking steps to becoming one of the most powerful foreign teams in SC2. They are setting a trend in what will hopefully become a norm with other foreign teams (establishing team houses, participating in all big tournaments, etc.).
When EG players have won big games in big tournaments, EG fans have given them praise and adoration for their accomplishments. I don't think it's unfair for fans to question the development of the less successful players on the team. When you put yourself out there as they have(signing big name players, house, etc.), you open yourself up to criticism (legitimate or not). Put these less successful players on a lesser known team, and no one would care about their "sub-par" performances.
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Loving those pictures. Gj on Article as well.
EG should be less butthurt. Unless they really step it up, I don't see anybody except the big 3 doing well next year. HuK and Puma aren't even part of the Teamhouse. So except for IdrA, what did this teamhouse do?
I think that close to everybody already talked with his friends about the poor performance these 4 players from EG have, probably laughing each time they bring up their 8-hours a day practice schedule in a teamhouse.
I hope they have a good time there, enjoy life and play SCII, but don't start claiming that the teamhouse has been a big factor on results, that would be pretty sad.
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Some people don't seem to understand the effects sitting next to your teammates has, even if all their are doing is ladder, (which I don't think is true). There is a huge difference in motivation that goes on by being physically near your teammates and seeing all the practicing they are doing. It is much much easier to slack off if you are on your own but if you are slacking off in a team house you know all those eyes are on you.
There is also a degree of motivation to put out results based on the investment into the house by your team so you don't want that investment to be wasted.
I also think some people are over emphasizing the benefit of a coach. They are essentially players, and not even the best players due to how little they can practice in comparison, who help other players. This is something that teammates can do to each other. Probably the main benefit to a coach is that it is their job to do that helping so the players can spend a bit more time practicing rather than playing mini coach. For the number of people who live in the EG house I don't think a coach is that necessary.
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EPT
