EPT[Champion] Ryze - Page 17
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 22 2011 14:50 Requizen wrote: Dominion Ryze: same build? I haven't played much Dominion really, but I like to scrap the Tear in favor of rushing the core Veil+Heart. You never really get much of a chance to farm it up. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 21 2011 00:33 Alzadar wrote: You'd be buying a Blasting Wand anyway at that point in the game because you need it for either an Archangel's Staff, a Void Staff or a Rod of Ages. I sure don't... tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart, start stacking mana with another catalyst, maybe get a WoTA . I delay the blasting wand as long as I possibly can, because it isn't that useful. I don't get the argument that you need the RoA completely charged to be worth it at all. You don't need a maxed out RoA to be worth it when you have 100+ armor and magic resist, and a decent chunk of health too already. Ryze is on a pretty steady power curve due to being dependent on his total mana pool for damage, the RoA is just a continuation of that process in my mind. Also, on the Warmog's comment- yeah, I'd be surprised if it finishes and gets charged up completely. Average minion kills in my ranked games are like 150-200ish. Games do not go much longer than 30 minutes for me, and a whole lot of that time is spent on team fights. If you get Warmogs as a third major item, you've spent 7585 gold on boots 2, tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart. Warmogs is another 3k gold, so you're at 10,585 gold minus plus pots and wards. My average gold per game as Ryze is around 10k (small sample size of 3), so you'd finish Warmogs right as the game was ending, unless you rush it (which you shouldn't). You need 100 extra minion kills to charge that sucker, minus whatever you get via champions. I don't know how your games go down, but end game is usually a crap ton of team fights where I'm not exactly farming minions for extended periods of time except after big battles. RoA charges up during team fights, without any sort of extra effort. I'd be pretty surprised if you could charge it before 45 minutes- unless you're sacrificing your mana pool significantly (or the enemy team is really, really sloppy or behind). As far as dominion Ryze goes, I go boots 1, catalyst, boots of mobility, Frozen Heart, Odyn's veil, then start stacking mana crystals/catalysts. Seems to work reasonably well. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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Attakijing
United States693 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 22 2011 15:13 zer0das wrote: I sure don't... tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart, start stacking mana with another catalyst, maybe get a WoTA . I delay the blasting wand as long as I possibly can, because it isn't that useful. I don't get the argument that you need the RoA completely charged to be worth it at all. You don't need a maxed out RoA to be worth it when you have 100+ armor and magic resist, and a decent chunk of health too already. Ryze is on a pretty steady power curve due to being dependent on his total mana pool for damage, the RoA is just a continuation of that process in my mind. Itemization is all about cost-effectiveness. It doesn't matter whether it's 10 minutes into the game, or 40 minutes into the game, if the item you're buying is not going to be cost-effective, there's no sense buying it. Buying Rod early at least has a CHANCE of being cost-effective, even though it puts a dent in your midgame effectiveness. Lategame Rod has almost no chance of being cost-effective before the game ends, so even though it hurts you less, there's no gain from buying it over items that are immediately good. On December 22 2011 15:13 zer0das wrote: Also, on the Warmog's comment- yeah, I'd be surprised if it finishes and gets charged up completely. Average minion kills in my ranked games are like 150-200ish. Games do not go much longer than 30 minutes for me, and a whole lot of that time is spent on team fights. If you get Warmogs as a third major item, you've spent 7585 gold on boots 2, tear, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart. Warmogs is another 3k gold, so you're at 10,585 gold minus plus pots and wards. My average gold per game as Ryze is around 10k (small sample size of 3), so you'd finish Warmogs right as the game was ending, unless you rush it (which you shouldn't). You need 100 extra minion kills to charge that sucker, minus whatever you get via champions. I don't know how your games go down, but end game is usually a crap ton of team fights where I'm not exactly farming minions for extended periods of time except after big battles. RoA charges up during team fights, without any sort of extra effort. I'd be pretty surprised if you could charge it before 45 minutes- unless you're sacrificing your mana pool significantly (or the enemy team is really, really sloppy or behind). You are aware that Warmog's gains charges from assists as well as kills, right? Even if you're not farming at all and just fighting teamfights, Mog's will charge extremely quickly because even in losing fights, you'll get 2-3 assists, which is 20-30 stacks. And if you win a fight, with 4-5 kills+assists, that instantly a half-stacked Warmog's. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
The cost effectiveness of stats for a RoA means diddly when you don't have the armor/resists to back it up. A mana crystal, health crystal, and AP tome are worth completely altering your build by themselves due to a perceived "cost effectiveness?" Seriously? How much Ryze do you play? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 26 2011 10:59 zer0das wrote: Cost effectiveness is not strictly about numbers. How do you quantify the ability to initiate fights without fear because of Banshee's Veil? Or how much easier it is to farm in lane because the AP caster on the other side can't bully you? Items are all about: Or the cooldown reduction on a Frozen Heart giving you rune prison just in time to pick up a kill and lead your team to an easy 5v4 teamfight? Yes, other items are better than RoA. We already established this. Now how does this make 4th item RoA (as you suggested) compelling at all? RoA is usually not worth buying over other items first. What makes it worth buying over other items as a 3rd or 4th item? Again, if you buy RoA, you're going all-in on it, because it's trash the moment you buy it. Uncharged RoA is a shit item, fully charged RoA is good. But buying at 40 minutes doesn't make it any LESS trash than it is at 15 minutes. The only difference at 40 minutes is that you're less likely to see that trash item finish charging into a worthwhile item. I don't think RoA is good 95% of the time. The 5% of the time I'd buy it though I'd buy it early. RoA is a trash item for Ryze the moment you buy it. If you buy it at 15 minutes, and somehow don't lose yourself the game over the next 10 minutes, you get to make use of it not being trash. But if you buy it late, it's usually gonna stay trash till the game is over. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On December 22 2011 14:50 Requizen wrote: Dominion Ryze: same build? I don't build tear if I don't go bot. start with catalyst then a fast glacial then finish those 2 items (frozen/banshee, depend on ad/ap heavy enemy) etc etc. I have mana runes anyways | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On January 15 2012 10:33 Kaneh wrote: someone tell me how to lane against ryze. once he gets cata any burst mage loses, once he gets tear everyone else loses too. and q range is rediculous and much better at trading than practically every otehr spell in the game. Ideally you just outrange him, zone him during his weak early game and deny him CS. Q is short compared to Brand/Cass/Xerath/Viktor, even Zilean and LB outrange him. Cata certainly doesn't counter ranged harass, its 250 health every level up, thats about 1-2 spells. Cass is very strong against him because even if he lands the snare and full combo, you can be comboing back at him the whole time for more damage. Zilean is absurdly annoying because ryzes lack of burst and slow projectiles make it easy to res yourself every time you would die, plus bombs everywhere. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead. I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game? My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible? | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:43 Alzadar wrote: I've heard a few times people say that Ryze counters Sion, but I just don't see it. Over time I've learned to overcome the match-ups I found difficult as Ryze (Morgana, Brand), but Sion remains a mystery to me. Early levels you have the choice of either trying to break his shield or ignoring him. If you ignore him of course he will try to stun + blow up, so either you get zoned out a bit or you fight. Fights will usually go something like: Sion runs at you with shield, you Q and root getting his shield to 1/2 or so, he stuns you and blows up, so you just took massive damage and he took none. You would have to chase after him through the minion wave to retaliate, so at best you're getting off a single Overload (~110 damage to the ~230 he did to you, and you spend three times as much mana). Breaking his shield will never be mana efficient (at level 3 it will take at least 220 mana to break his 80 mana shield), so even if you do manage it you'll run OOM quickly if it's before your first base. After you've based he's getting to a point where he can insta-clear and go gank, and you can either use your ult to clear the wave and follow him, a good 20 seconds behind at least, or stay and get the creeps. Either way he's ahead. I just don't see how Ryze is a good pick against Sion in any way except for the fact that he has a stronger lategame. Ryze snare outranges Sion stun though, you shouldn't ever get stunned. And a Ryze combo is not QW, it's QWEQ which should break his shield. You have to react really fast though if you smartcast like me, since as soon as you see your Q come out you need to root him so he can't get in stun range. If he clears the wave and leaves that's a problem, but if you go and pop his shield every time he wants to use it to clear the wave you'll be ok. It does leave you open to ganks though since you need to use your W on him and it still won't save you from a flash stun. I don't really know how to deal with Morgana still, she just pushes all day zzz On January 26 2012 14:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I have a few questions on ryze. How does he scale into late game considering he scales off mana and not ap? How do you get farm for late game? My spells are too single target to farm efficiently and my autoattacks suck. In teamfights I can ult and E for some aoe damage, but I can't ult every time I want to farm wraiths. Do you just get blue and spam as much as possible? He's probably the best scaling late game caster. You get farm the same way as everyone else, by killing creeps. Learn to use his autoattacks and save your spells to harass and to last hit at tower. Get blue early and charge your tear like mad. And you can use your ult to farm wraiths, it's on like a 30 second cooldown. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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HDream
Norway20 Posts
On January 26 2012 14:25 starfries wrote: I have a question too. For top do people level W over Q? I found level 1 W wasn't enough to keep Garen from silencing me but that was without a boots start. Obviously you should never follow guides down to the last item. They are entirely situational, and I believe you should just hang back and focus on farming. Treat it like a gp lane, which is to say; Devote your mana pool to q'ing garen if you feel you have to, to stay safe, and eventually use it to last hit if you can't get close, since the range is pretty high. This will keep you safe, and will keep him low enough so that he is unable to dive you in tower given that you can just w him if he comes under tower range. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On January 26 2012 16:16 HDream wrote: Obviously you should never follow guides down to the last item. They are entirely situational, and I believe you should just hang back and focus on farming. Treat it like a gp lane, which is to say; Devote your mana pool to q'ing garen if you feel you have to, to stay safe, and eventually use it to last hit if you can't get close, since the range is pretty high. This will keep you safe, and will keep him low enough so that he is unable to dive you in tower given that you can just w him if he comes under tower range. I feel like you probably haven't played Ryze vs Garen because it's very different from a GP lane. those bushes are terror | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On January 26 2012 14:18 starfries wrote: Ryze snare outranges Sion stun though, you shouldn't ever get stunned. And a Ryze combo is not QW, it's QWEQ which should break his shield. You have to react really fast though if you smartcast like me, since as soon as you see your Q come out you need to root him so he can't get in stun range. If he clears the wave and leaves that's a problem, but if you go and pop his shield every time he wants to use it to clear the wave you'll be ok. It does leave you open to ganks though since you need to use your W on him and it still won't save you from a flash stun. I don't really know how to deal with Morgana still, she just pushes all day zzz He's probably the best scaling late game caster. You get farm the same way as everyone else, by killing creeps. Learn to use his autoattacks and save your spells to harass and to last hit at tower. Get blue early and charge your tear like mad. And you can use your ult to farm wraiths, it's on like a 30 second cooldown. Again, I don't see how you can come out ahead using 280 mana to break his 90 mana shield. Sooner or later you'll run too low, and then you're really screwed. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On January 26 2012 22:20 Alzadar wrote: Again, I don't see how you can come out ahead using 280 mana to break his 90 mana shield. Sooner or later you'll run too low, and then you're really screwed. Once you have your tear and blue mana isn't really an issue. You want to back pretty early anyways so that you have more time to charge your tear. If you don't get that blue at 7 minutes it's a lot more painful, but you can always root him and run away to avoid damage. It just means you'll be pushed to tower and he might start roaming. edit: if you pm me your ign we could just play Ryze vs Sion instead of theorycrafting. unless you're way better than me (very possible because I'm pretty bad) | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
 I was mid against Morgana and I felt like I had to conserve mana to save cs from tower instead of harass because she pushed so damn hard. Then when she pushed the wave into tower she'd hang back and do whatever the hell she wanted, be it taking blue buff, backing for items, ganking top or bot, or just sitting out of line of sight to keep me in the dark. Once I got Catalyst I felt like I could spend a few E's and Q-balls to harass/keep the lane from pushing, but up until then it was a pain in the ass. | ||
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