EPTNot as much AP as dcap, with dcap final build gives around 396 AP compared to 322 if you go AA but you have 1400 more mana with AA. Your Q, which is your bread and butter skill, will hit for approximately 80 more damage if you go AA instead of dcap. And I realize no one builds dcap on Ryze, just illustrating that for raw damage getting sixth item AA is going to yield a ton more damage than selling tear for Rylai's or a tank item.
[Champion] Ryze - Page 19
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Not as much AP as dcap, with dcap final build gives around 396 AP compared to 322 if you go AA but you have 1400 more mana with AA. Your Q, which is your bread and butter skill, will hit for approximately 80 more damage if you go AA instead of dcap. And I realize no one builds dcap on Ryze, just illustrating that for raw damage getting sixth item AA is going to yield a ton more damage than selling tear for Rylai's or a tank item. | ||
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
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jtype
England2167 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On March 01 2012 07:09 overt wrote: Am I just reading wrong or are people not getting AA super late game? Like obviously things like WotA/Bveil/Frozen Heart and probably even void staff take precedence but with the insane amount of mana you're going to have, and the fact that we've established that nine times out of ten you're probably gonna keep Tear, turning Tear into AA for your sixth item will yield more AP than just about anything (possibly even more AP than deathcap considering runes and your item build). Not as much AP as dcap, with dcap final build gives around 396 AP compared to 322 if you go AA but you have 1400 more mana with AA. Your Q, which is your bread and butter skill, will hit for approximately 80 more damage if you go AA instead of dcap. And I realize no one builds dcap on Ryze, just illustrating that for raw damage getting sixth item AA is going to yield a ton more damage than selling tear for Rylai's or a tank item. Well of course you buy the Archangel's when you're loaded and have nothing left to buy. Depending on the enemy MR it will sometimes be a better purchase than Void Staff. Nobody is advocating selling Tear (except the guy who thought you kept the bonus mana, which isn't the case). On the topic of Warmog's vs WotA vs Rod of Ages vs Rylai's, I've played extensively will all of them and none feel as strong as Warmog's. The problem with WotA is that if you get stunned and focuses you'll die before you get a chance to vamp. Usually you can keep yourself safe from this by standing back, but that means you can't poke well. With the other 3 options you can go balls deep without fear. The only problem with Rod is that you'd be getting it at 40 minutes, not really worth it. Rylai's vs Warmog's comes down to utility vs power. Is a 35% slow on your Overloads worth a loss of 800 health? Situational. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On March 17 2012 21:23 RouaF wrote: isn't op like really old ? what is the standard nowadays for ryze ? runes ? masteries ? Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it. For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel. For runes: Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there. For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells. | ||
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
You have a choice with your last item between Void, Rylai's, Warmogs, and GA. Your other 5 items should be Banshee Veil, Tear (built into AA after your 5th big item), Boots (Mercs/Sorcs), WotA, Frozen Heart. Ryze gets massive benefit from WotA because of how spammy he is and how most of his damage comes from single target spells (and therefore gets the full value of spell vamp). Base your final item choice on how the game has actually progressed, not based on an arbitrary guide. If GA helps you outlive a burst team and come out the other side with an ace, so be it. If Void gives you the extra damage you need to seal the deal, grab it. If Warmogs lets you be super aggressive and not have to back down, fantastic. Rylai's slow and extra bit of hp/damage can also be a fight changer. Permaslow is nothing to scoff at with a champ like Ryze. If you find yourself not dipping low in HP because of your ult, consider skipping WotA altogether. Point is, there's no one right answer. | ||
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Sven Stryker
United States423 Posts
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
Nobody is advocating selling Tear (except the guy who thought you kept the bonus mana, which isn't the case). errr It definitely was the case last patch. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 18 2012 16:35 APurpleCow wrote: errr It definitely was the case last patch. no, it wasn't. selling tear always made you lose the +1000 mana bonus. the mana bonus is tear's unique passive. | ||
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
On March 18 2012 11:59 BlasiuS wrote: Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it. For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel. For runes: Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there. For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells. thank you good sir. altho I feel like taking mp5 seals is kind of a waste... you'll have so much mana later on, I guess I have to try by myself. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On March 18 2012 19:30 RouaF wrote: thank you good sir. altho I feel like taking mp5 seals is kind of a waste... you'll have so much mana later on, I guess I have to try by myself. It's not for later on, it's for early laning (which is why I take flat mp5) Ryze has terrible mana issues early on. | ||
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Agnosthar
631 Posts
If I follow them then I'm going to consistently lose cs, and my understanding of Ryze is that you really need excellent cs early and mid to be useful later on. Also with items like Catalyst and a low stack Tear, can Ryze really compete with the damage of a lot of these AP champs in an early counter gank/teamfight situation? If I stay in lane cs'ing, then I find it's almost rolling the dice since I'm relying on bot lane not to get double killed, which more often that not they seem to do even with ss/pings going down. Even if my team-mates don't get killed, they definately go on tilt afterwards, since 100% of the time so far I've been flamed for not ganking as much as a Brand etc. What I'm trying to say is that whenever I come across an AP that can majorly outpush me I feel like whatever I do I will come out behind. I'd like some advice on whether you guys have a solution, or how I should play in such situations, or whether I need to pick Champions that can match my opponents pushing power rather than opting to play Ryze. | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On March 18 2012 23:12 Agnosthar wrote: How do you guys deal with AP's like Brand who push really hard and then go ganking lanes/jungle post 6. If I follow them then I'm going to consistently lose cs, and my understanding of Ryze is that you really need excellent cs early and mid to be useful later on. Also with items like Catalyst and a low stack Tear, can Ryze really compete with the damage of a lot of these AP champs in an early counter gank/teamfight situation? If I stay in lane cs'ing, then I find it's almost rolling the dice since I'm relying on bot lane not to get double killed, which more often that not they seem to do even with ss/pings going down. Even if my team-mates don't get killed, they definately go on tilt afterwards, since 100% of the time so far I've been flamed for not ganking as much as a Brand etc. What I'm trying to say is that whenever I come across an AP that can majorly outpush me I feel like whatever I do I will come out behind. I'd like some advice on whether you guys have a solution, or how I should play in such situations, or whether I need to pick Champions that can match my opponents pushing power rather than opting to play Ryze. Don't be afraid to use ult to shove your lane back, then follow the other mid. The cd is really low (especially when you consider his passive) and should come back up during any prolonged engagement. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups? I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult. Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen? I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried. (Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.) | ||
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Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:38 bmn wrote: I'm new to Ryze, but don't like to first-pick him because he's countered by common choices, e.g. Cassiopeia. Would anyone mind giving a list of particularly good (and, perhaps, particularly bad) matchups? I don't expect anything comprehensive. In the interest of brevity, let's focus on lanes that are both a) rather hard to beat in general b) rather easy to beat with Ryze An example: Ahri is strong against many common mid picks. I noticed that I did well Ryze vs Ahri. Start with boots; Q her when she misses her own Q/W, and your W prevents her from dashing in and out with her ult. Any other examples? Is he a good choice against the generally un-counterable Kennen? I'm thinking of mid lane, but if people still pick him for top, that works too. I'd theorycraft that he's good against Riven and Rumble, but haven't tried. (Note to self: Ryze vs Olaf is not fun. Not at all.) Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever. Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him. | ||
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SMD
Canada627 Posts
On March 18 2012 11:59 BlasiuS wrote: Core items are pretty much sorc boots/tear of the goddess/banshee's veil/frozen heart. The order you get these depends on who you're laning against and how well it's going. Tear always becomes Archangel's Staff, but only after your build is completed, to maximize the amount of AP you get from it. For the 5th and 6th item, it's mostly situational, my personal preference is WotA/Void Staff, although if you're getting focused down hard in every single team fight you will want a guardian angel. For runes: Marks: MPen, standard for all AP mage champs. Seals: a few good choices here, the mp5 seal is the best mp5 rune, so if you want regen for more early-game Q usage then use seals, MPL to maximize late-game mana/damage, or flat mana to help his early game mana/damage as much as possible. Most guides I see use MP5 to ensure that he can stay in the lane without running out of mana long enough to be able to have tear + boots after his 1st trip back to base. Glyphs: CDR is very important for Ryze to be able to maximize his damage. 10% comes from level 5 Overload, 20% comes from Frozen Heart/blue buff. The remaining 10% must be done through runes + masteries. Using the suggested masteries below gives 6%. The remaining 4% can be done using 3 CDR/lvl glyphs, and 2 flat CDR glyphs. The other 4 can be your preference, although it's recommended to go MR since glyphs are the best runes for MR and MR is important to help reduce early-game damage from the AP champ you'll most likely be laning against in mid. Of course if you're not concerned with capping your CDR, you can just use all MR glyphs, and rely on blue buff/blue elixir for getting to 40%. Quintessences: Movement speed is pretty much standard, being a tanky caster means that positioning is important for ryze, and in addition ryze recalls quite a bit since he depends heavily on getting his tear/catalyst ASAP, so the extra movement speed is important there. For masteries: From what I've read and used, the best distribution is 9/0/21. 9/0/21 is pretty much the optimal distribution for Ryze, since it maxes out Strength of Spirit, which Ryze takes takes advantage of more than any other champion, and also gives him the most CDR while doing so. The utility tree also helps out his mana regen for the early game, gives him longer blue buff, and maxing out swiftness helps his movement speed along with the MS quints. The Spell Vamp is also useful since once Ryze gets tear/catalyst he is constantly casting spells. Looking at mp5/lvl v flat mp5, the mp5/lvl is better at level 7, but at a certain point mp5 is usueless to ryze, so i guess my question would be, is it viable to go a 5/4 mp5/lvl and flat mp5 or shold i pick one or the other. Maybe i just need to play a few more games with ryze, or pay attention to when mana issues end to figure this out myself. I used to use armor seals, but realized that late game i have an abundence of armor from frozen heart, that they were just a waste of money. Edit: I've also seen different ways to spec 9/0/21... I know some people get the gold bonus, to start mana crystal +3pots, to get a quicker tear. Also some people take the crd over the health regen. Im not really sure what's better, but just thought i'd throw it out there that thers some customization available. Also, instead of the 3 AP, ive been putting 2 into extra minion dmg and a couple into AD, It actually really helps ryze last hit early game, more than 3 ap will help him. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On March 20 2012 04:09 SMD wrote: Also, instead of the 3 AP, ive been putting 2 into extra minion dmg and a couple into AD, It actually really helps ryze last hit early game, more than 3 ap will help him. I do this with every mage I play (well, I don't play Annie nor Veigar) since I find it so much more useful than 3 meek AP. | ||
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:57 Neon_Monkey wrote: Ryze loses against cass and can struggle against swain if he gets a small lead early. Aside from cass I don't know of any AP that shuts him down mid, although maybe some unplayed long range champs like xerath might be able to do so. I always ban cass so I feel free to first pick ryze whenever. Ryze destroys vlad, although you may struggle a little before tear just because your mana pool is not enough to kill him through 3 health pots and Q sustain. Kennen is generally weak to champions with direct target spells and high burst; I've found ryze and annie to be the two best counters to him. Kennen also can't really beat an AP in lane unless he is able to 100-0 someone with his ult, which banshee veil prevents. Same goes for ahri, although ahri can farm/push at such a long range that it will probably be hard to deny her without getting ganked. I believe ryze is a good counterpick to rammus because ramm can't initiate with powerball if you just rune prison him. Although he isn't played so much anymore, Zilean does very well versus Ryze because of the large range differential in their Qs. | ||
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SMD
Canada627 Posts
Severly limit him early game? Even in games where i've start 0/3 and behind in cs at a certain point i just become dominating. | ||
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