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On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations.
Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right?
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On September 20 2011 01:53 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:40 sekritzzz wrote:On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed. Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own. Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment. If you believe that playing a macro game = sitting in your base building units and doing nothing else, then I'm sorry that your race is so terrible, you literally can't move out on the map without being crushed. 'Macro' Terrans started off by doing a push, build up, push, build up, push style against Zerg, which is terrible. Nowadays, Terrans don't do this at all, they are teching, expanding, doing drops, whilst clearing the creep poking the front whilst being safe vs counter aggession. Is this because Terran is so much better than Protoss that Protoss can't at least try and emulate this? Maybe, but I haven't seen many Protosses besides Hero attempt to move out of the 1a Deathball syndrome/2 base all in syndrome. Protoss players have to relearn what a macro game is and if it turns out, they HAVE to stay in their base in order to macro, then fine P is weak. At least try before you say that though.
lol - to paraphrase Jay-Z do you even watch games or do you just skim through them?
Plenty of Protoss have tried and failed to find another way.
They need to keep trying because the game needs a 3rd race but the deck is currently stacked against them.
People seem to think that Zerg was whining for a while then "magically" tried "other ways" and got out of a slump.
In fact, what actually happened: 1) they got buffs (infestor), 2) races got nerfs and 3) maps got bigger with more expos + attack paths, allowing them to utilize their racial advantages much more effectively (flanking, speed, mass expanding).
TLDR:
Zerg players didn't "find new ways" they benefited from balance changes and map changes.
Expecting Protoss do the same without structural changes is unlikely.
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On September 20 2011 02:03 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations. Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right?
So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^
Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me.
I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches).
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Good read, my hopes actually are on Puzzle for now. Think he's great. puzzle or Sage
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On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:
So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^
Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me.
I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches).
I would say pleasing everyone is impossible. Assuming that every MU is balanced; if there is a player of one race who absolutely dominating others regardless of races (like Flash), some people would still whine about that race imbalance.
I won't argue that Protoss is weak right now but to blame everything on the imbalance would not really help.
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On September 20 2011 02:15 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:
So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^
Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me.
I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches). I would say pleasing everyone is impossible. Assuming that every MU is balanced; if there is a player of one race who absolutely dominating others regardless of races (like Flash), some people would still whine about that race imbalance. I won't argue that Protoss is weak right now but to blame everything on the imbalance would not really help.
That's kind of what I'm trying to say. 
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Why are you even arguing if there is or isn't imbalance. It's clear that there is some imbalance. Maybe you don't realize it, but Code S/A is really close. Like "anyone can beat anyone on any given day" close. Maybe some guys (MMA/Nestea/MVP) are slightly better but rest of the players are incredibly close with skill level. That's a fact imho. And now look at the results.
Results for GSL Code S August; GSL Code A August; GSL Up n Downs August; GSTL (starting from week 6, which is first week of august afaik):
104 of T/ZvP games were played. 80 matches (considering Bo1 as a "match"). Out of this, T/Z won 68 games, while P won 36. This means, T/Z won about 65% (65.3841.....%) of all games versus Protoss, leaving P with slightly less than 35%. And that's too low of a number to even consider this game to be balanced atm.
+ Show Spoiler +Code S + A + upndwn + gstl:
T/ZvP
games 68:36
matches: 52:28
Bo1: 64 - 40:24
Bo3: 14 - 10:4
Bo5: 2 - 2:0
Also, interestingly enough, Protosses are really struggling more against zergs than against terrans. Against terrans it's like 40% winratio, against Zergs less than 30%.
Also, imho, ghosts just shouldn't be that big of a deal for HTs. MC already showed us how to do it, stuck them in the warp prism and then they cannot be sniped and cannot be emped at least before they unleash the storms.
About early game harass, I like what SaSe was doing on his stream - warp prism, 1-2 sentry + zealots, load out in mineral line, FF workers so they can't run, warp in zealots, kill entire mineral line (I think it's worth losing few zealots + sentry). Wish more pros would try it.
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On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:03 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations. Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right? So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^ Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me. I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches).
No i just want an enjoyable and competitive game at least from the perspective of a Protoss player. I want to actually have a shred of hope that a protoss player can take down a competent zerg or terran. Not be in a constant state of depression on these forums because I have to see MC play a PvZ on a freaking map like Dual Sight.
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making balance changes based on 1 player would be stupid so i guess your right
it should be clear that mc gets worse when he goes abroad every 2 weeks
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Feels it's the same few guys here calling the end of the world over and over again. It's not easy for protoss atm but this is way overdone imo. MC lost to Puma in a close series just two months ago, and it's mostly been 1-1-1 that's really fucked over protoss the last month or so.
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On September 20 2011 02:24 imperator-xy wrote:
making balance changes based on 1 player would be stupid so i guess your right
it should be clear that mc gets worse when he goes abroad every 2 weeks
Yeah not like the whole race is a joke or anything. It's just MC!!
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Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we have some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they are in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant
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On September 20 2011 02:25 karpo wrote:
Feels it's the same few guys here calling the end of the world over and over again. It's not easy for protoss atm but this is way overdone imo. MC lost to Puma in a close series just two months ago, and it's mostly been 1-1-1 that's really fucked over protoss the last month or so.
How convenient that you ignore when they next met Puma demolished MC with 1-1-1 and other all-ins.
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Nice write up  I hate to see protoss losing so much it really makes me want to switch to terran but I will stick with it and I think players like HerO can pull us through! Judging on his game in dreamhack valencia against IdrA his multi-tasking and use of multiple warp prism's was insane! PROTOSS FIGHTING!
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On September 20 2011 02:21 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:08 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 02:03 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 01:52 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:On September 20 2011 01:31 Talin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:16 Yaotzin wrote:
1) BW was never this bad.
2) You're assuming it's a period, and by the time you realise you're wrong the game will be dead.
Don't understand you people who insist on waiting forever for some massive metagame change that probably will never happen, while people just stop watching because a 2-race Starcraft is just boring. 1) It absolutely was (and arguably is, save for one fluke player). 2) You're assuming it's not. By the time you realize that you can't keep patching previous patches that were patches to problems caused by other patches, SC2 will lose any legitimacy as a competitive game. Every time a game is patched, it's basically reset and completely messed up. A month later somebody will finally come up with refined ways of abusing the changes and another race will need a patch. Rinse and repeat. It never ends, and it certainly never ends well. Why is it sooo inconceivable to people like you that the game might require another patch or two to improve the balance? Is such a concept so absurd that it cannot even be considered? Why didn't we have this 'no more patching attitude' before the KA and warpgate nerfs? Why couldn't we have stopped patching and let the metagame sort it out before those major nerfs? It's kind of absurd, given that every patch is pretty much a gamble. Nobody can possibly conceive all the consequences of a balance change immediately, and it could (and usually does) just as easily create additional problems in various matchups later on. With that attitude, you'll never stop patching, which is just absurd because then you're effectively determining all the results by patching. We already have patches on average each 2 months, and they never seem to fix anything long term. It's just going back and forth. You act as if patches solve something, but they don't - they only change things. I thought the game was perfectly playable after Terrans could no longer build Barracks before Depots btw. -_- On September 20 2011 01:46 tomatriedes wrote:
Do you really know so much more than all the top Korean protoss players (and even one terran player) and experts like Gisado who are claiming a problem? No, I'm saying that they don't know everything. Obviously I know even less, but until you've got the game crunched down to the last detail, you can't conclusively claim it's imbalanced. And since knowing everything in a game of such complexity is not humanly possible, all balance complaints are really based on arbitrary and incomplete observations. Well if balance is so unattainable might as well give Protoss a chance to win something right? So you would have another 33% (or 66%) of SC2 users whine instead of you, what's the difference? ^_^ Balance whining annoys me no matter where it comes from, and as for games on my level I win when I'm better than my opponent and lose when I'm worse. It's all the same to me. I wouldn't mind a Protoss-favored patch obviously, but I know it'll really change little in terms of how good overall game balance is and it will eventually just be counter-patched again (especially if the trend continues and people keep demanding and expecting patches). No i just want an enjoyable and competitive game at least from the perspective of a Protoss player. I want to actually have a shred of hope that a protoss player can take down a competent zerg or terran. Not be in a constant state of depression on these forums because I have to see MC play a PvZ on a freaking map like Dual Sight.
That's what the depressed Zergs wanted as well, so they got super buffed on multiple fronts and apparently that's why you now can't have what you want, and so on and so forth.
Among people who think balance is the be-all, end-all reason for players of certain race doing badly while a game is evolving very rapidly, then out of all of you, one third at least will always be unhappy and depressed. And the rest of us will have to swim through oceans of tears EVERYWHERE on forums. -_-
What can I tell you... just don't get depressed.
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The hope and enthusiasm are great, but I don't agree with your evaluations. People have already pointed out the players who are doing better but were left out. Also, several of the players you mention show a very hit or miss style. They can be impressive in their games but can just as easily take an embarrassing loss. I think the difficulty is that a lot of the impressive, unique protoss styles we've seen recently have been very fragile. Sometimes they are just risky and lose to certain build orders. Other times they absolutely rely on perfect control and timing just to get into the mid game relatively even. Puzzle and Hero exemplify this in my opinion. Their micro and multitask abilities allow them to pull off some amazing aggressive builds, but the slightest mistake on their part or superb defense by their opponent shuts it down hard.
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On September 20 2011 02:27 Severus_ wrote:
Because the GSL code S format is a joke and its pretty bad you see the game in a wrong way guys even Artosis said it because there is no salarys for the players they want to keep the old "famous ones" in the game that way it can get a stable scene and keeps the viewers BUT i think its a double edge sword because now we had some Code B players in Code S which made this wrong impression that P is UP. There is no new blood filled in Code S , I mean groups of 4 and 1 dude gets in the up&down rly ?
This way there is no way to see how awesome ppl like Smart,Puzzle,Younghwa,Sage,Hero are with the new maps and more safe bases,buffs from the new patch,new smart and awesome play and some of them geting into code A,code S you will see how those players will start to own it up and even the non-krs like HuK,Nani,Sase. The reason every toss in the code s or those who were "famous" are failing to do something is not because of balance its because they were bad in the first place. They just exploited some things that weren't figured out and because of the dumb format they can't drop out of code s and you see those joke-like games where you think well if the "GOD-like" MC can't stop this push it must be imba htf i'm gonna stop it in ladder. People like Alicia whine in their twitters how 1/1/1 is unstoppable while their chinese fellow xiaOt who sits down and practices all day like a boss and doesn't do some retard exploits in the metagame who rolled ppl even when Grrr was playing just stops it like that, like walking in the park. If people like sAviOr had mindset like Alica they would have quited the game and won nothing. So this brings one thing :
You need to change your mindset to win.
Those guys who you watched in previous gsl are nothing they made the game in this state with their gimmicky play and exploiting retards. They couldn't compete in BW they can't compete now their mindset is wrong their play is wrong. Now you maybe thinking " Well Nestea was bad in BW and now he is the best zerg in the SC2 scene it must be the race" but you forget Nestea had pretty bad nerve issues in BW days but still he was a good 2v2 player and got a zerg coach spot in KT which is pretty big deal if you ask me he had to coach ppl like Luxury,Hoejja,Firefist who were pretty decent back in the days.
My point is that those idols you had they are nothing they are bad take a look at Naniwa for example he was this cheesy player but look at him now he has a mind of champion and he tries to improve every day by playing rock solid. Now look what MC or Hongun or Inca have done nothing they still relay on on silly gimicky play since their glory days their mindset is bad so this is why they in code B or will drop from Code S soon. Don't follow blindly and idolize those players just because they win.The game is so new analyze their games learn why they win, and why they win and you will see how fast you will improve and you will not be crying in the forums how your race is UP.
/rant
None of those protoss players were good in BW and they have no success in Korea either. They have never done any better than MC or hongun. Your rant is just absolutely silly and incomprehensible. All those guys have 50 percent winrates and are on losing streaks, and Hero can't even beat foreigners. Alot of good their mindset does them, eh?
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On September 20 2011 02:07 RinconH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 01:53 Micket wrote:On September 20 2011 01:40 sekritzzz wrote:On September 20 2011 01:32 Whitewing wrote:On September 20 2011 01:27 Yaotzin wrote:On September 20 2011 01:18 Micket wrote:
I think Protoss players should SERIOUSLY try macro play as standard rather than 2 base all ins vs Zerg and try and not play deathball style. Terrans used to do this 2 base push, build up, push, build up, push, style which was just terrible. Terran adapted, they used pressures while expanding and teching and dropping, knowing Zerg was being very risky if they commited without enough units. However, 1/1/1 is clearly imbalanced and that must be nerfed, but Protoss overall, are playing the game wrong vs Zerg and more needs to be explored vs T (PvT may be imba because of Ghosts). People do allins because infestors and ghosts are ridiculously difficult to stop. Give us our caster power back (not as amulet that was stupid, something else to return Templar to their former glory) and we'll macro all day. Well, protoss mostly do all-ins because it's almost impossible to secure a third base as protoss quickly enough to not be way behind. Zerg drones way faster than protoss, and can expand quicker and easier (yay fast units!). Terran has MULES, so equal base situations favor the terran. Not to mention terran units are just plain more efficient before end-game tech. So yeah, playing a macro game as protoss is folly, because protoss is always behind when it gets to the late game unless they do decisive damage early on. Problem is, protoss units suck unless they're in a big ball working together (which is why it's so hard to secure a third, your whole army has to be together to not suck and all the enemy has to do is hit two places at once), and our early game pressure got nerfed to hell. Protoss was over nerfed. Yea thank you for this. A protoss player trying to out-macro an equally skilled zerg is stupid. Everyone knows a full macro zerg is far superior to any other race in terms of how fast they can get income. Not to mention the options it leaves open for zerg is a strategy game to easily shut down a protoss 3rd while keeping their own. Idra telling protoss players to sit on their ass and out-macro zerg is not enough proof for me that it works(because this seems to be the FOTM, to tell protoss to macro). Either he needs to prove it or i'll take it as another "morrow is a gold player" type comment. If you believe that playing a macro game = sitting in your base building units and doing nothing else, then I'm sorry that your race is so terrible, you literally can't move out on the map without being crushed. 'Macro' Terrans started off by doing a push, build up, push, build up, push style against Zerg, which is terrible. Nowadays, Terrans don't do this at all, they are teching, expanding, doing drops, whilst clearing the creep poking the front whilst being safe vs counter aggession. Is this because Terran is so much better than Protoss that Protoss can't at least try and emulate this? Maybe, but I haven't seen many Protosses besides Hero attempt to move out of the 1a Deathball syndrome/2 base all in syndrome. Protoss players have to relearn what a macro game is and if it turns out, they HAVE to stay in their base in order to macro, then fine P is weak. At least try before you say that though. lol - to paraphrase Jay-Z do you even watch games or do you just skim through them? Plenty of Protoss have tried and failed to find another way. They need to keep trying because the game needs a 3rd race but the deck is currently stacked against them. People seem to think that Zerg was whining for a while then "magically" tried "other ways" and got out of a slump. In fact, what actually happened: 1) they got buffs (infestor), 2) races got nerfs and 3) maps got bigger with more expos + attack paths, allowing them to utilize their racial advantages much more effectively (flanking, speed, mass expanding). TLDR: Zerg players didn't "find new ways" they benefited from balance changes and map changes. Expecting Protoss do the same without structural changes is unlikely.
You are wrong. Take away infestors for Zerg, how would Zerg play? NOT Roach Hydra Corrupter. I am talking Spring 2011 where PvZ was at its worst, big maps were hurting Zerg more than ever against Protoss and everyone was doing things wrong. Losing 3rds to voidrays, dying to 6 gates, staying 2 base vs 2 base for a long time, going Hydra vs Robo, thinking roaches are good vs blink stalkers. Builds such as 3 hatch 1 gas and losira timing introduced good Zerg openings which gave them an edge vs FFE and 3 gate fe respectively, and Zerg was favoured ever since WITHOUT infestors. For fuck sake, DRG beat Naniwa with ling bling only, most Korean zergs don't use the stuff that actually was buffed.
If every Protoss thought like you and said 'everything is explored, Protoss is simply weak, we HAVE to do 2 base all ins because WE CANNOT BEAT ZERGS OTHERWISE,' then innovation simply wouldn't exist. 1/1/1 is imba, but PvZ probably is not. If you keep telling yourself Zerg cannot be defeated if Protoss decides to take a third base, then I'm sorry for your loss.
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On September 20 2011 01:40 hai2u wrote:
really, Protoss in GSL has always sucked, ever since the first GSL. Only MC has had success and besides him only freaking Inca has made it past Ro4. Is that because all protoss players are bad or because of shitty game design, who knows there seems to be alot of debate about that.
IMO it has always been that way. There was a lot of discussion on the b.net protoss forums about the lack representation of protoss players in the GSL. This was just before GSL Open Season 3 and during that season MC won his first championship and put some doubt onto the thought that "protoss sucks."
On September 20 2011 02:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:
No love for HongUn? Two semifinals, two quarterfinals, and has been in Code S since the beginning, plus taking out Taeja, Boxer and Ganzi in the GSTL. HongUn and Killer have done more than all of your "heroes" combined. And Genius, Puzzle and Huk are stuck with honorable mention? Come on, this thing you've written is silly.
Anyway, has anyone compiled a list of all the actual nerfs to Protoss that have been patched in so far?
His win rate is worse than most protoss in GSL. He just managed to win his first round matches more often to cling to his spot. He's a very good toss no doubt though. He's like the Korean Socke.
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heh, awesome article, glad you spotlighted JYP, he's so good,
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EPT
