EPTPvZ InControl Coaching Session - Page 11
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On January 17 2011 02:52 2GRe-Play- wrote: + Show Spoiler + hi, i have been watching TLOpen and i ear Chill said that 4 colo are the magic number why? is this the safe number to move out? few days ago i ear that 9 sentries PvZ are the magic number why? is this the safe number to not be overrun? Can someone tell me this? sorry to bump it | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 17 2011 20:18 Snaphoo wrote: Thanks very much to the OP for posting; I've been helped alot by watching this coaching session. I've gone from feeling helpless at executing anything but void ray all-ins at PvZ to settling into what I feel is a much more stable 3 warpgate opening. Incontrol's build seems very solid. However, I've felt kind of naked at points with regard to roaming around in "shark mode" while executing this strategy. If any of you saw the Metalopolis or LT games tonight between NesTea and choyafou in the GSL RO8, NesTea busted out some speedlord doom drops in the main with hydralisks that viciously punished Choya for not having enough units (stargate opening). I realize that good scouting is key, but this seems like it would absolutely cripple a Protoss who does have units but whose army is outside the base engaging in "shark mode," or else initiate a base trade, which is pretty unstable. Choya tried to use FFs to block his ramp, but of course, force fields have little effect on a doom drop, so those sentries suddenly become little more than moderate damage-dealing snowglobes. Have any of you had this type of Zerg play attempted against you while trying this style or have and/or have a replay of it? If you are constantly moving around and in "shark mode" wouldn't you notice his entire army being picked up in overlords? The answer is YES, yes you would. Shark Mode uniquely gives you a better chance at countering this style. It isn't like you can tell me the alternative is a better play style over all... sitting at home and waiting for drop style? No. Actively pursuing your opponent and pressuring them ALSO makes them feel a doom drop is less productive but even if they get there with their decision making you should pick up on it asap. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
But no I haven't seen it on the NA server much. I find baneling drops on your army/mineral lines to be a better tactic for the zerg and harder to execute. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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terran151
Canada103 Posts
I was wondering if anyone thought that high templar tech would be a good transition after blink stalkers. I would need to make a robo bay for observers so i dont know if going collosis would be better. I kinda find based on the games i have been playing that sticking with blink stalkers and upgrading them alot has been winning me games. Could that be a solid good option too? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 19 2011 02:19 terran151 wrote: Hey i have been doing this 3 gate expand and getting blink stalkers from twilight councel first before robotics bay. Being able to bling stalkers allows for much more aggression in the beginning of midgame. I was wondering if anyone thought that high templar tech would be a good transition after blink stalkers. I would need to make a robo bay for observers so i dont know if going collosis would be better. I kinda find based on the games i have been playing that sticking with blink stalkers and upgrading them alot has been winning me games. Could that be a solid good option too? this isn't a bad way to play at all. however, if you don't get a robo down quickly and instead opt for council/ht tech, you don't really have a strong answer to roaches. blink is extremely effective against a player opening spire or even roach/hydra if you don't fall too far behind in macro and are quite adept at blink micro. Roaches can get pretty obnoxious if you don't have a robo backbone to your army.. even if you have enough sentries to ff them indefinitely.. you just.. can't.. kill them O_O There are some players that essentially do what you are doing but they use their robo for immortals as well to deal with roaches and storm hydra/muta. I don't really have a lot of experience using this style, however so I can't offer you too much help with that. That would be something like a zealot/sentry/immortal/ht army instead of a stalker/sentry/colo army. I prefer the latter style but am sure the other has its strengths as well | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers? Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army | ||
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Gleve
United States206 Posts
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers? Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army I'm have lost a couple times today to this, and after looking at it i'm not at all sure how to stop it. Maybe a sneaky probe could have scouted it, i don't know. Maybe another cannon at the main? Maybe instead of a 4th gate after your nexus, you drop a robo and get an obs out so you can see what he's doing, and you may have time to get an immortal out before their first push? | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On January 19 2011 05:00 Jayrod wrote: This question is specifically for incontrol, but I understand if you don't have time to answer or this threads been exhausted How true is it that when you're in "shark mode" theyre actually building units and not drones? How about when they've built all the drones they're going to build? I find that some of the good zergs I play against have a really good feel for whether or not an attack is actually coming and I notice them still droning and maybe making just 1 or 2 units and 4 drones for instance when I feint pressure. Do I just assume they're droning up? Am I focused more on the army they show when I poke forward or the actual drone count itself? On a map like XnC am I pushing all the way up to their natural to see what army they have or do I assume theyre making the army when they see me running around picking off OL's and taking towers? Quite Ironically, I'm having the opposite trouble with this build... its that I end up with 40 + probes and find out later he stopped droning at 25 and just roach/ling all-ins me. I'm guessing thats just scouting error to not see him massing up an army My solution to this is to get hallucination and scout with that. Once you scout the roach allin, throw up cannons and a robo with your 3 gateways. Also, don't take all 4 of your gas immediately, as you need minerals for cannons. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On January 20 2011 09:39 4kmonk wrote: My solution to this is to get hallucination and scout with that. Once you scout the roach allin, throw up cannons and a robo with your 3 gateways. Also, don't take all 4 of your gas immediately, as you need minerals for cannons. Sounds like a decent plan. At what point do you get hallucinate? Before robo I assume or you could just use an obs ( though they move much slower than hallucinated phoenix ) | ||
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hobo1
8 Posts
Have you encountered a build similar / do you know how you would counter this if it occurred with the sentry heavy early build? Also, I apologize that I don't have the video but it hasn't been uploaded to tyler's stream yet, when it is I will link to it. /Edit Unlike the previous post this wasn't a doom drop style play. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On January 20 2011 11:26 Khaladas wrote: Sounds like a decent plan. At what point do you get hallucinate? Before robo I assume or you could just use an obs ( though they move much slower than hallucinated phoenix ) After my 6th sentry. I only build a robo if my pokes indicate roach/hydra or my pheonix scout those units or those corresponding buildings. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On January 20 2011 13:02 hobo1 wrote: Khaladas, thanks very much for sharing this video I found it very helpful. I do have one question though. One problem, I have with the build is that it is very reliant on sentries for defense. Today on Tyler's stream he played a zerg who attacked him head on on Xelnaga with mass zerglings early on. The sentries allowed for an initial defense with force fields however, the Zerg drew back and then immediately afterwards dropped onto the main of Tyler forcing the gg. This occurred significantly before "shark mode" would have kicked in. Have you encountered a build similar / do you know how you would counter this if it occurred with the sentry heavy early build? Also, I apologize that I don't have the video but it hasn't been uploaded to tyler's stream yet, when it is I will link to it. /Edit Unlike the previous post this wasn't a doom drop style play. I am going to play around with researching hallucinate and get some really solid scouting information before dropping my nexus. I think that would probably give you the info you need to defend properly. I'm actually thinking of doing this in all 3 matchups since scouting so important at around the 6-10 minute mark, yet extremely difficult to pull off with just a probe. I find myself making a lot of incorrect assumptions by just using a probe to scout since the info is often very incomplete. Is anyone else finding this to be the case or are you just better than I am at predicting what the opponent is doing with probe scouting? | ||
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RationalGaze
United Kingdom121 Posts
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GiygaS
Canada1043 Posts
I did, but it's in pieces, and I can't find somewhere to upload it. If someone could upload it for me, I would ask InControl and put it together. BTW, it's a 2 hour lesson (cut off at the end cause my comp was spazzing out), focusing on PvT. I'm a plat protoss playing diamond players, and I USED to 4 gate against Terrans, cause I didn't understand the matchup at all. It was basically focusing on expansion timing, unit composition, and when to attack, defend, etc. It was a very similar thing to this lesson actually. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On January 23 2011 05:43 L1F3 wrote: I did, but it's in pieces, and I can't find somewhere to upload it. If someone could upload it for me, I would ask InControl and put it together. BTW, it's a 2 hour lesson (cut off at the end cause my comp was spazzing out), focusing on PvT. I'm a plat protoss playing diamond players, and I USED to 4 gate against Terrans, cause I didn't understand the matchup at all. It was basically focusing on expansion timing, unit composition, and when to attack, defend, etc. It was a very similar thing to this lesson actually. I'd be happy to piece it together for you and upload it, but we need to find some way to get me the files. A couple options, you can sign up for Dropbox, with that I think you get 1GB free, whilch should be plenty of space. www.easyshare.com gives you 5gb, though it's a bit obnoxious with ads, at least you could get the files to me. I use mediafire, but they only allow 200mb for the free version, if you are willing to pay $9 a month you can get like 500gb or something crazy ( thats what I did ). PM me if you want and I can help put it together. | ||
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