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On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote:
I disagree with the removal of the losses and I 100% disagree with the reason offered.
It's pretty clear to me the reason was 100% designed to make the ladder less "scary"
The reason offered of "well, W/L can be misleading" is complete bunk.
the total # of wins is just as misleading but it remains, why is that?
Achievement points are about the most worthless and meaningless thing, but when I log on I see them displayed on the front page, largely and prominently.
Division points are meaningless because they are a mix of real points (earned from wins) and fake welfare points, yet that's what the whole ladder is based around.
The only number with any real meaning is the MMR but that's not shown anyway.
So Blizz's reason "oh it was misleading" is basically a lie. They have to say that because they know they'll get torn to shreds if they just come out and say "We want a fake ladder designed to make people feel good and keep playing" when it's pretty clear that's what they've wanted the whole time.
TL;DR Cliff Notes
Fake ladder is fake.
pretty much on point
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On April 08 2011 02:31 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:28 Zaqwert wrote:
A ladder by it's very nature is competitive, this whole "we're going to have a ladder system that caters to everyone" is just not workable.
Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against.
The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob"
People play becaue they just enjoy playing.
SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games.
You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game.
No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues?
get rid of ALL THE divisions. have ladder like wc3 where its just ladder points and a corresponding rank for your realm. Sure ill be around rank #1,000 instead of #5 in my division but ID RATHER HAVE THAT. I can work on laddering to stay top 1,000; i feel it's more of an accomplishment that being rank #5 in my division which means NOTHING to me. let the bronze players have fun from going rank 12,000 to 11,000 with just a few wins. they can think "i jumped up 1,000 ranks!" i want to see my REAL RANK, why do i have to go to sc2 ranks for this WTF BLIZZ?
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On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth.
Why does SC2 have so few stats?
Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to.
Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race"
How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same.
Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves.
It's insulting and dishonest IMO.
when i played wc3, i went to the wc3 bnet site multiple times DAILY. I would see whose on the front page of the top 20, check my statistics (some of the best/most interesting statistics ever ie. win % vs time duration, win% for each type of hero, win% for each matchup and map, etc)
i've gone to the sc2 bnet site maybe once to vote for implementation of LAN. LOL. blizz u failed.
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On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote:
So Blizz's reason "oh it was misleading" is basically a lie. They have to say that because they know they'll get torn to shreds if they just come out and say "We want a fake ladder designed to make people feel good and keep playing" when it's pretty clear that's what they've wanted the whole time.
TL;DR Cliff Notes
Fake ladder is fake.
"We want a ladder that will make people feel good and keep playing"
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable and respectable goal for a game company?
If you are decent player and only care about getting better and improving, removing the loss counter doesn't really affect your improvement. Since you are all about self improvement and not the results of individual games, you shouldn't have cared about W/L anyways If you are improving a lot, rapidly, you are quickly going to hit really good players and get stomped a few times because of how the matchmaking works, invalidating W/L anyway. W/L is a pretty terrible way of "evaluating your improvement."
It seems more likely to me that there a bunch of plat/diamond players who had +.500 W/L and now they can't point at everyone who has a worse ratio then them and claim they are better, which was never a valid mechanism anyway.
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On April 08 2011 03:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth.
Why does SC2 have so few stats?
Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to.
Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race"
How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same.
Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves.
It's insulting and dishonest IMO. Well it didn't help that the Bnet SC2 web team was like 2 people (based on what I've heard), and the main guy who pulled all those awesome War3 stats is doing something else now. They still want to add detailed stats but they're going to want to pick and choose what is most relevant. Something like "TvZ win %" or "TvZ win % on Shakuras" would be relevant, so maybe that's an example of something they'll eventually update the website to accommodate.
Wow, if this is still the case with the BNET web team, then that's really telling of Blizzard's priorities/perspective. For one thing, there hasn't been any major improvements to the sc2 site since launch even if the team is composed of just 2 people. Moreover, I find it surprising that Blizzard can't hire one more guy to add a bunch of statistics to the sc2 site.
There is a real possibility that what you're hearing from Blizzard is the "PR" answer to devoted fans - "more stats coming soon".
To clarify, I don't think Blizzard is under the influence of activion mentality, i.e. it's not that they are being lazy/cheap about providing proper support for their product. I think they're interested in keeping their MMR formula secret while trying to balance what information they provide to keep new players engaged. Unfortunately their efforts have led to a slew of largely meaningless statistics on ladder and no real metric of skill other than league.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 08 2011 04:19 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 03:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth.
Why does SC2 have so few stats?
Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to.
Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race"
How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same.
Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves.
It's insulting and dishonest IMO. Well it didn't help that the Bnet SC2 web team was like 2 people (based on what I've heard), and the main guy who pulled all those awesome War3 stats is doing something else now. They still want to add detailed stats but they're going to want to pick and choose what is most relevant. Something like "TvZ win %" or "TvZ win % on Shakuras" would be relevant, so maybe that's an example of something they'll eventually update the website to accommodate. Wow, if this is still the case with the BNET web team, then that's really telling of Blizzard's priorities/perspective. For one thing, there hasn't been any major improvements to the sc2 site since launch even if the team is composed of just 2 people. Moreover, I find it surprising that Blizzard can't hire one more guy to add a bunch of statistics to the sc2 site. There is a real possibility that what you're hearing from Blizzard is the "PR" answer to devoted fans - "more stats coming soon". To clarify, I don't think Blizzard is under the influence of activion mentality, i.e. it's not that they are being lazy/cheap about providing proper support for their product. I think they're interested in keeping their MMR formula secret while trying to balance what information they provide to keep new players engaged. Unfortunately their efforts have led to a slew of largely meaningless statistics on ladder and no real metric of skill other than league.
Naw, I know more detailed stats are in the pipeline, I have that on pretty good authority. As far as what those will actually be, that's a guess. I also don't know whether they've allocated more people to the SC2 web/tools side.
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On April 08 2011 04:07 Mr. Daisy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 00:54 Zaqwert wrote:
So Blizz's reason "oh it was misleading" is basically a lie. They have to say that because they know they'll get torn to shreds if they just come out and say "We want a fake ladder designed to make people feel good and keep playing" when it's pretty clear that's what they've wanted the whole time.
TL;DR Cliff Notes
Fake ladder is fake. "We want a ladder that will make people feel good and keep playing" That sounds like a perfectly reasonable and respectable goal for a game company? If you are decent player and only care about getting better and improving, removing the loss counter doesn't really affect your improvement. Since you are all about self improvement and not the results of individual games, you shouldn't have cared about W/L anyways If you are improving a lot, rapidly, you are quickly going to hit really good players and get stomped a few times because of how the matchmaking works, invalidating W/L anyway. W/L is a pretty terrible way of "evaluating your improvement." It seems more likely to me that there a bunch of plat/diamond players who had +.500 W/L and now they can't point at everyone who has a worse ratio then them and claim they are better, which was never a valid mechanism anyway.
No, it is more of a complete disagreement with the "Everyone is a winner" Philosophy. As a parent I completely resent that they are teaching this garbage to our kids. Sorry but everyone is not a winner, the person who came in second..Lost along with everyone else who wasn't in first. Seeing this philosophy creep into the one refuge I had from this garbage (games) has been a constant sore point with me for years.
For that matter and to be perfectly clear, I hate the achievement system as well. I am utterly and completely opposed to systems that reward mediocrity like it is some kind of accomplishment. We don't need to shelter people from everything. Some of the best memories I have as a gamer are games that kicked my ass long hard and unmercifully until I surmounted it. Why was SC so wildly successful? Well it certainly wasn't because it had all this "don't feel bad, everyone is a winner" garbage in it.
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If I'm laddering up I want to see if the guy I beat was 25-10 or 296-287. It tells a much different story that is now taken away from me.
What Blizzard should have done is removed losses, but allow us to view them via an option we can enable on battle.net.
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On April 08 2011 03:58 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:31 PJA wrote:On April 08 2011 02:28 Zaqwert wrote:
A ladder by it's very nature is competitive, this whole "we're going to have a ladder system that caters to everyone" is just not workable.
Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against.
The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob"
People play becaue they just enjoy playing.
SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games.
You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game.
No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues? get rid of ALL THE divisions. have ladder like wc3 where its just ladder points and a corresponding rank for your realm. Sure ill be around rank #1,000 instead of #5 in my division but ID RATHER HAVE THAT. I can work on laddering to stay top 1,000; i feel it's more of an accomplishment that being rank #5 in my division which means NOTHING to me. let the bronze players have fun from going rank 12,000 to 11,000 with just a few wins. they can think "i jumped up 1,000 ranks!" i want to see my REAL RANK, why do i have to go to sc2 ranks for this WTF BLIZZ?
No, you see the smaller leagues are intended to make you think your marginal trip from mid-silver to high-silver is actually improvement rather than the result of you winning a few games more then normal or just spending your bonus pool if you have one (and almost all players have a bonus pool). If you've managed to spend your bonus pool and still aren't in a league where that's the case with the majority of players (so anything below masters, likely) then your rank isn't even comparable to most of the rest of your league.
The ladder was very carefully designed to look as though you were always improving so long as you played a few games. This is true all the way up to top masters as anyone who hasn't entirely spent their bonus pool doesn't even have an "accurate" position on the ladder. Bonus pool is a self-perpetuating tool, as it's set well above the bell-curve in terms of amount of games the average person plays. Hiding losses just tried to close another possibly "negative" thing the ladder could say about you.
Blizzard is trying to make the ladder a legitimate way to practice for top level players. That's why masters devision gets to actually see their losses. It's crap however, because the ladder is a terrible practice device as only half it's maps are seen in large tournaments at this point.
TL:DR
- Your ladder ranking is effectively worthless. MMR is what determines match ups on the ladder and that's kept from view for no reason.
- Bonus pool allows you to have something like a 25% winrate and still maintain a ladder position. Hiding games lost prevents you from figuring out you have a 25% winrate unless you track your match history manually.
- Bonus pool + MMR matching means you always maintain about a 50% winrate against similar players, showing improvement when there actually isn't any.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 08 2011 06:12 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 03:58 Bluerain wrote:On April 08 2011 02:31 PJA wrote:On April 08 2011 02:28 Zaqwert wrote:
A ladder by it's very nature is competitive, this whole "we're going to have a ladder system that caters to everyone" is just not workable.
Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against.
The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob"
People play becaue they just enjoy playing.
SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games.
You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game.
No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues? get rid of ALL THE divisions. have ladder like wc3 where its just ladder points and a corresponding rank for your realm. Sure ill be around rank #1,000 instead of #5 in my division but ID RATHER HAVE THAT. I can work on laddering to stay top 1,000; i feel it's more of an accomplishment that being rank #5 in my division which means NOTHING to me. let the bronze players have fun from going rank 12,000 to 11,000 with just a few wins. they can think "i jumped up 1,000 ranks!" i want to see my REAL RANK, why do i have to go to sc2 ranks for this WTF BLIZZ? No, you see the smaller leagues are intended to make you think your marginal trip from mid-silver to high-silver is actually improvement rather than the result of you winning a few games more then normal or just spending your bonus pool if you have you (and almost all players have a bonus pool). If you've managed to spend your bonus pool and still aren't in a league where that's the case with the majority of players (so anything below masters, likely) then your rank isn't even comparable to most of the rest of your league. The ladder was very carefully designed to look as though you were always improving so long as you played a few games. This is true all the way up to top masters as anyone who hasn't entirely spent their bonus pool doesn't even have an "accurate" position on the ladder. Bonus pool is a self-perpetuating tool, as it's set well above the bell-curve in terms of amount of games the average person plays. Hiding losses just tried to close another possibly "negative" thing the ladder could say about you. TL:DR - Your ladder ranking is effectively worthless. MMR is what determines match ups on the ladder and that's kept from view for no reason. - Bonus pool allows you to have something like a 25% winrate and still maintain a ladder position. Hiding games lost prevents you from figuring out you have a 25% winrate unless you track your match history manually. - Bonus pool + MMR matching means you always maintain about a 50% winrate against similar players, showing improvement when there actually isn't any.
33%. Against even opponents, 2 losses offset one win.
The part about showing improvement where there isn't any is an interesting one. It causes some confusion because people will post threads like "I was rank 6 in my division and I've been winning more than I'm losing lately and I got demoted wtf" not realizing that a) the 94 people below him just aren't playing at all which keeps their points low, and b) he's probably only been winning against people in lower leagues and it's probably been that way for a while. It's a little unfortunate that you have to read between the lines and understand how the ladder operates on a deeper level than is presented in order to figure out why things like promotions and demotions happen, but that's the way the ladder is (for now).
I still don't think psychology was the main reason for removing losses. It may have been a secondary reason, but the official explanation of "it doesn't really have much relevance" has merit.
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It makes total sense from a business perspective, but I hate it. I'd much rather have full match up stats. Big ladder or divisions doesn't matter, but I at least want that
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I agree with what you're saying, but there should still be an option to allow you to see YOUR OWN w/l ratio. Fine if it's not public, but I HATE not knowing my w/l ratio. It's stupid to hide it from literally everyone.
I also personally think it's babying for Blizzard to hide losses because Jimmy is influenced by silly little numbers. "Oh no if i lose one more game i'll go down to a 55% w/l ratio! D:"
Personally I feel that people like that need to just suck it up, but that's a little irrelevant.
Tbh, my only complaint is that we can't see our MMR, the TRUE value of our skill, but that's a whole other topic.
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On April 08 2011 06:21 genius_man16 wrote:
I agree with what you're saying, but there should still be an option to allow you to see YOUR OWN w/l ratio. Fine if it's not public, but I HATE not knowing my w/l ratio. It's stupid to hide it from literally everyone.
I also personally think it's babying for Blizzard to hide losses because Jimmy is influenced by silly little numbers. "Oh no if i lose one more game i'll go down to a 55% w/l ratio! D:"
Personally I feel that people like that need to just suck it up, but that's a little irrelevant.
Tbh, my only complaint is that we can't see our MMR, the TRUE value of our skill, but that's a whole other topic.
You can still see your win ratio if you save all your replays, there's some cool tools (SC2Gears is the best, imo) floating around these boards that'll extract all that information, plus some other neat stuff. But I agree that we shouldn't need a workaround to do that.
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On April 08 2011 06:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:12 Offhand wrote:On April 08 2011 03:58 Bluerain wrote:On April 08 2011 02:31 PJA wrote:On April 08 2011 02:28 Zaqwert wrote:
A ladder by it's very nature is competitive, this whole "we're going to have a ladder system that caters to everyone" is just not workable.
Trying to rig a ladder to trick everyone into thinking they are actively competing for something just wrong. Lying to people, no matter how well intentioned, is something I'm just against.
The idea that a bronze player really cares whether or not they are 1st in their division or 90th is laughable. The first thing anybody says to him is "HAHA, bronze noob"
People play becaue they just enjoy playing.
SC1 had no match making and a ladder that as completely worthless (due to no match making and win trading and bots and that sort of crap) but people still played tons of games.
You don't need a carebear ladder system to get casuals to play, they don't care about the ladder, they just hit "Find Match" and play the game.
No sense in polluting the ladder with a bunch of non-sense to appeal to people who don't care about it. Even bronze players enjoy moving up the ladder, have you ever actually talked to any people in lower leagues? get rid of ALL THE divisions. have ladder like wc3 where its just ladder points and a corresponding rank for your realm. Sure ill be around rank #1,000 instead of #5 in my division but ID RATHER HAVE THAT. I can work on laddering to stay top 1,000; i feel it's more of an accomplishment that being rank #5 in my division which means NOTHING to me. let the bronze players have fun from going rank 12,000 to 11,000 with just a few wins. they can think "i jumped up 1,000 ranks!" i want to see my REAL RANK, why do i have to go to sc2 ranks for this WTF BLIZZ? No, you see the smaller leagues are intended to make you think your marginal trip from mid-silver to high-silver is actually improvement rather than the result of you winning a few games more then normal or just spending your bonus pool if you have you (and almost all players have a bonus pool). If you've managed to spend your bonus pool and still aren't in a league where that's the case with the majority of players (so anything below masters, likely) then your rank isn't even comparable to most of the rest of your league. The ladder was very carefully designed to look as though you were always improving so long as you played a few games. This is true all the way up to top masters as anyone who hasn't entirely spent their bonus pool doesn't even have an "accurate" position on the ladder. Bonus pool is a self-perpetuating tool, as it's set well above the bell-curve in terms of amount of games the average person plays. Hiding losses just tried to close another possibly "negative" thing the ladder could say about you. TL:DR - Your ladder ranking is effectively worthless. MMR is what determines match ups on the ladder and that's kept from view for no reason. - Bonus pool allows you to have something like a 25% winrate and still maintain a ladder position. Hiding games lost prevents you from figuring out you have a 25% winrate unless you track your match history manually. - Bonus pool + MMR matching means you always maintain about a 50% winrate against similar players, showing improvement when there actually isn't any. I still don't think psychology was the main reason for removing losses. It may have been a secondary reason, but the official explanation of "it doesn't really have much relevance" has merit.
I can think of numbers in other Blizzard games that have no meaning but completely dominate what would be considered the "casual" aspect of the game. Just sayin'
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On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth. From meaningless truth. To know that you got place 51.642 in your region is just a big number. It gives you no real goal. You feel like a raindrop in an ocean.
Getting one or even ten places up? What does it man? "Hey man, last week I was rank 51.642 but I laddered so hard this weekend and managed to get 51.632". Through the constant up and down movements of your ladder neighbors your rank would also widely go up and down without you doing anything. But many guys would still credit or blame themselves for the wrong reasons.
Having a division of just 100 guys you are ranked against gives you a goal you can reach for. Just 31 points needed to move up one position? (Falsely perceived as 1% improvement since you have 100 guys in the division) – hit the search-game-button at use the bonus pool climb that ladder!
There is no problem in hiding truth like using the division modifier. People who are playing really competitive and ranked Master anyway. Master divisions have no modifier.
Humans are not very good handling group with sizes greater than 100 or 150. 200 guys in the grand master league are already over the top. This is of course the only really prestigious place in the ladder. It will be prominently featured.
TL;DR If you want the truth not to be hidden from you, get in Master and use Sc2ranks.com. You don't need to tell everyone else at the login screen "YOU SUCK! Your rank has no meaning, noob! YOU SUCK!"
On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves. As this proves, there are more guys liking it instead of hating it.
Starcraft is just published by ActivionBlizzard. It is made by Blizzard only.
On April 08 2011 03:52 Bluerain wrote:
pretty much on point So you are another one who still not understood that win ratio has no meaning from bronze up to diamond. Win ratio should be 50% regardless. To show it gives you the wrong mindset of trying to avoid losses. It also concerns you with wrong thoughts when a deviation from 50% is just pure random noise.
On April 08 2011 03:49 GiftPflanZe wrote:
I see the point in removing w/l,but why cant I just see my own and no one else?Im not master in every leauge,and I would like to see my 2v2 stats. You cannot see your losses because your losses have no meaning because if you keep playing, the system will get you to 50% anyways.
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On April 08 2011 19:19 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth. From meaningless truth. To know that you got place 51.642 in your region is just a big number. It gives you no real goal. You feel like a raindrop in an ocean. Getting one or even ten places up? What does it man? "Hey man, last week I was rank 51.642 but I laddered so hard this weekend and managed to get 51.632". Having a division of just 100 guys you are ranked against gives you a goal you can reach for. Just 31 points needed to move up one position? (Falsely perceived as 1% improvement since you have 100 guys in the division) – hit the search-game-button at use the bonus pool climb that ladder! There is no problem in hiding truth like using the division modifier. People who are playing really competitive and ranked Master anyway. Master divisions have no modifier.
Personally I would prefer the 51642 or whatever system, showing overall ranks. Since it feels more meaningful than the rank within your own division.
The division idea is only good if you consistently play against those in your division. People care about the relative skill level of those they play against. And that is hard to measure currently unless they come from the same division.
At the moment it's just a reasonably arbitrary set of 100 people above or below you, doesn't really give you a sense of scale, or how anyone is actually doing.
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On April 08 2011 04:42 Dekoth wrote:
For that matter and to be perfectly clear, I hate the achievement system as well. I am utterly and completely opposed to systems that reward mediocrity like it is some kind of accomplishment. We don't need to shelter people from everything. Some of the best memories I have as a gamer are games that kicked my ass long hard and unmercifully until I surmounted it. Why was SC so wildly successful? Why is SC2 even more successful?
Why would you "hate" achievements? If you don't care about them, don't care about getting them, but please let other people have fun in their achievement hunting.
SC2 offers something for everyone. The largest userbase is mediocre by the very definition of that word. They have to have fun to keep the game on and rolling. The pros can try to get a shot for GSL Code-B or participate in a western online tournament to proof their worth.
SC2 awards even the nubbiest casual weekend sunshine happy-go-lucky zeroskill gamers with portraits, decals and an achievement showroom. If you don't like it, you can keep the Kachinsky portrait like many GSL pros do.
Starcraft 2 is not just about competition. It is an online gaming platform with a great soloplayer campaign and countless quality funmaps already. The new Blizzard funmaps even have their own sets of achievements. Time to play some Left2Die again!
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On April 08 2011 06:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:
It may have been a secondary reason, but the official explanation of "it doesn't really have much relevance" has merit.
Just on that. While this is true, this would've justified not implementing it...but actively taking it away can't be explained by a lack of relevance. Why not keep it in, nobody would've gotten hurt by having an "irrelevant" number in the game. Just my 2 cents.
Also we have Division-rankings, which are irrelevant by definition. [/sarcasm]
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On April 08 2011 05:27 bruteMax wrote:
If I'm laddering up I want to see if the guy I beat was 25-10 or 296-287. It tells a much different story that is now taken away from me. You can still see the wins of your opponent. While you cannot see his losses, this removes no real information. If he has very few wins yet he could have very few losses or many losses, you don't know. But you also don't need to know because with few games played, the win ratio is affected by much random noise anyway. With a larger number of games won you can assume that his loss count will be close to the number of games won. (Exceptions for lowest tier bronze because you can intentionally throw games.)
On April 08 2011 05:27 bruteMax wrote:
What Blizzard should have done is removed losses, but allow us to view them via an option we can enable on battle.net. Blizzard only removed a misleading piece of information.
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On April 08 2011 04:04 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:46 Zaqwert wrote:
The problem is Blizz's philosophy of protecting people from the ugly truth.
Why does SC2 have so few stats?
Look at a WC3 player's profile. You see a very detailed statistical break down, W/L record with reach race against each race. Furthermore you can see it broken down by individual map if you want to.
Look at SC2 stats... wait there are none, no stats whatsoever. All you have is total number of wins and "most played race"
How ridiculous is that? If a guy has 1000 wins I don't know if he has 1000 wins as a Terran or 501 as Terran and 499 as Protoss, it appears the same.
Post WoW/Activision Blizz has adopted the philosophy that they know best and giving players information is bad, it's up to them to decide what sort of information is best to give to protect people from themselves.
It's insulting and dishonest IMO. when i played wc3, i went to the wc3 bnet site multiple times DAILY. I would see whose on the front page of the top 20, check my statistics (some of the best/most interesting statistics ever ie. win % vs time duration, win% for each type of hero, win% for each matchup and map, etc) i've gone to the sc2 bnet site maybe once to vote for implementation of LAN. LOL. blizz u failed.
lol omg......
I just realized I forgot there even was a starcraft 2 community site,
brb to see if it has even changed from release....
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EPT
