On May 04 2012 21:48 shannn wrote: Robin van Persie, 28 years old, Arsenal. Forward striker of Holland and recently crowned Player of the year in the EPL. Not our strongest striker in the team but the better player overall for Holland. He's fast, has strong shots, good passes, strong on the ball, agile too much to name tbh His weak point? Well the only weak point I would say is that he doesn't score much for Holland :/ He is not our best striker for Holland and hopefully he can repeat what he did for Arsenal at the Euro Cup.
Robin van Persie was absolutely useless in the World Cup, I hope we will use Huntelaar instead, although Persie has performed well at Arsenal he just did nothing at all for us at the World Cup pretty much, Shann is right, while Persie is good at Arsenal, he performs subpar for Holland.
Our defense sucks, for real, the only thing we have going for us is that we have a worthy successor to Van der Sar basically, Stekelenburg saved our asses multiple times.
I am not estimating our chances high against Germany, if we advance, its 2nd in the group and not first. As for Portugal, it will be a match filled with fouls and maybe even
On May 08 2012 20:59 Kipsate wrote: Robin van Persie was absolutely useless in the World Cup, I hope we will use Huntelaar instead, although Persie has performed well at Arsenal he just did nothing at all for us at the World Cup pretty much, Shann is right, while Persie is good at Arsenal, he performs subpar for Holland.
Our defense sucks, for real, the only thing we have going for us is that we have a worthy successor to Van der Sar basically, Stekelenburg saved our asses multiple times.
I am not estimating our chances high against Germany, if we advance, its 2nd in the group and not first. As for Portugal, it will be a match filled with fouls and maybe even
I didn't mind the fouls in the game back in 2006, I just didn't enjoy the Dutch players trying to hurt Ronaldo as a way to stop him.
A good player is a good player no matter what team he plays in. A bunch of good players don't make a good team. It was v.Marwijk's fault for speculating 100% on individual qualities of Snijder and Robben. There was no position play or organized midfield. The 2 defending midfielders had to stay behind the ball always. And we also didn't have wingers as Kuyt and vdVaart and whoever he positioned there couldn't make it. Sneijder had to cover the whole midfield himself. When he got the ball he could only give it to Robben. Only way for v.Persie to get involved in the play was to drop out of the striker position and play on no.10. But when he does that, Sneijder gets mad since he wants the no.10 himself.
Maybe v.Persie doesn't know how to play in a 4-3-3 system. Maybe he does. But the way the Netherlands played on the WC will kill any striker. No matter if he is Huntelaar, vPersie, or a past times Kluivert or v.Nistelrooy. You either need a distance covering midfielders that walk a lot without the ball to close the distance on the midfield and that gets near the striker position. Or you need two win players that will actually cross the ball to v.Persie/Huntelaar and give them the oppertunity to score. The Netherlands currently has neither.
When there is a turnover, v Bommel and de Jong will keep haning right before the defensive center, thinking about what could happen when they lose possession again. Sure, they do a fine job at capturing the ball and giving it to Sneijder. Sneijder will move into the ball and claim it for himself when the defense captures the ball. Then we have a huge huge cap between our striker and the rest of our team and one true winger. They play with only 2 full attacking players and 6 purely defensive field players. It will kill any striker.
Huntelaar has done quite well stats wise in the national team though. But he clearly isn't doing better because he is a better player. V.Marwijk has to change his ways and fix his past mistakes. But he is too stubborn to admit he made mistakes. He thinks that because he beat Slovenia, an unusually weak and poor playing Brasil and Uruguay he had the team playing excellent. But on the WC they would have struggled against England and Argentinia and they would have lost vs Germany and theye did lose vs Spain. Only Spain has better players than the Netherlands. So I don't think v.Marwijk is getting anywhere near the potential he has looking at the skills of the players.
I also beleive that if they didn't have de Jong suspended vs Uruguay and if de Zeeuw didnt get injured, v.Marwijk could have lost with his 2 super defensive midfielders. He had to bring vdVaart on the pitch and that won the game. Otherwise, the Netherlands might have lost vs football dwarf Uruguay who missed many of their best players.
@Miyo Yeah but we only have those 2 defensive blocks because of our defense. It would be suicide if we didn't have them. Our defense is at it's weakest since generations if you look at the past names that stood there. Offense has never been our problem but last few years our defense is becoming the biggest obstacle. It's going to be a miracle for us defending against any of the top countries and basically any other average offensive against our defense.
On May 08 2012 21:25 Miyoshino wrote: A good player is a good player no matter what team he plays in. A bunch of good players don't make a good team. It was v.Marwijk's fault for speculating 100% on individual qualities of Snijder and Robben. There was no position play or organized midfield. The 2 defending midfielders had to stay behind the ball always. And we also didn't have wingers as Kuyt and vdVaart and whoever he positioned there couldn't make it. Sneijder had to cover the whole midfield himself. When he got the ball he could only give it to Robben. Only way for v.Persie to get involved in the play was to drop out of the striker position and play on no.10. But when he does that, Sneijder gets mad since he wants the no.10 himself.
Maybe v.Persie doesn't know how to play in a 4-3-3 system. Maybe he does. But the way the Netherlands played on the WC will kill any striker. No matter if he is Huntelaar, vPersie, or a past times Kluivert or v.Nistelrooy. You either need a distance covering midfielders that walk a lot without the ball to close the distance on the midfield and that gets near the striker position. Or you need two win players that will actually cross the ball to v.Persie/Huntelaar and give them the oppertunity to score. The Netherlands currently has neither.
When there is a turnover, v Bommel and de Jong will keep haning right before the defensive center, thinking about what could happen when they lose possession again. Sure, they do a fine job at capturing the ball and giving it to Sneijder. Sneijder will move into the ball and claim it for himself when the defense captures the ball. Then we have a huge huge cap between our striker and the rest of our team and one true winger. They play with only 2 full attacking players and 6 purely defensive field players. It will kill any striker.
Huntelaar has done quite well stats wise in the national team though. But he clearly isn't doing better because he is a better player. V.Marwijk has to change his ways and fix his past mistakes. But he is too stubborn to admit he made mistakes. He thinks that because he beat Slovenia, an unusually weak and poor playing Brasil and Uruguay he had the team playing excellent. But on the WC they would have struggled against England and Argentinia and they would have lost vs Germany and theye did lose vs Spain. Only Spain has better players than the Netherlands. So I don't think v.Marwijk is getting anywhere near the potential he has looking at the skills of the players.
I also beleive that if they didn't have de Jong suspended vs Uruguay and if de Zeeuw didnt get injured, v.Marwijk could have lost with his 2 super defensive midfielders. He had to bring vdVaart on the pitch and that won the game. Otherwise, the Netherlands might have lost vs football dwarf Uruguay who missed many of their best players.
Arsenal have played a 4-3-3 the whole season, but the way arsenal plays involves RvP a LOT in the play. I'm not sure you can get that kind of play going in a national team (unless you're team spain aka barcelona).
On May 08 2012 22:03 shannn wrote: @Miyo Yeah but we only have those 2 defensive blocks because of our defense. It would be suicide if we didn't have them. Our defense is at it's weakest since generations if you look at the past names that stood there. Offense has never been our problem but last few years our defense is becoming the biggest obstacle. It's going to be a miracle for us defending against any of the top countries and basically any other average offensive against our defense.
How are Matthijssen and Heitinga so much worse than what other teams field? Is Puyol really that good? And Lucio? Is Pepe that good? Is Mertesacker that good? I really like Pique though. And those are some big names. What did England play next to Terry last WC? Upson? And sure Terry in his prine was really good. But is he still that good right now? There are a ton of strong teams that don't play with 2 defensive players. They all have better central defenders?
A lot of central defenders are just very big, fast an athletic. Their actual football skills are often very limited. One can only say that Matthijssen and Heitinga aren't very complimentary in that respect.
And it's not just playing with a backward v on the midfield that is the problem. The problem is that they play old fashioned static midfield. In modern football you need box to box midfielders. Both the defending midfielders actually have the skill to join the attacking line. But they aren't allowed to do so. Look at Germany's midfield the last WC. Their central defenders were arguably a bit worse. Look at how modern their midfield played. It completely dominated both Argentinia and England. Yet the Dutch squad struggled every match at the WC vs easier opponents. The Germans played without a purely defensive midfielder. It doesn't matter if they are a V or reserve V on paper. When there is space to go attack, all 3 midfielders need to take the oppertunity and use the space when it is given to them. That's a modern dynamic midfield.
V.Marwijk plays with 2 defensive midfielders even vs San Marino. It really has nothing to do with defense being weak.
In the finals they made basically nothing happen. Yes, they almost scored and won because of Robben and because of Puyol's mistake. But they didn't. I guess Spain also needs to play with 2 super conservative vacuum cleaners. They almost lost becaus they didn't, right?
Barcelona played with Mascherano large parts of the season. He isn't even a central defender. And Puyol is slow. They also don't have any length in their entire team except for Pique. Doesn't seem to be a problem for them. And sometimes they play without Busquets.
Now maybe the problem is that Sneijder just refuses to defend. On a modern midfield you need to both defend and attack with all midfielders. V.Marwijk doesn't seem to be the person that can convince Sneijder that he needs to do that. Fine. Then he just has to play with inferior tactics. Then their play will be less attractive and they will be less succesful. Maybe he should bench Sneijder like how v.Basten benched v.Bommel. Seems to have sovled the problem with v.Bommel completely, to put it in understatements.
On May 08 2012 22:03 shannn wrote: @Miyo Yeah but we only have those 2 defensive blocks because of our defense. It would be suicide if we didn't have them. Our defense is at it's weakest since generations if you look at the past names that stood there. Offense has never been our problem but last few years our defense is becoming the biggest obstacle. It's going to be a miracle for us defending against any of the top countries and basically any other average offensive against our defense.
How are Matthijssen and Heitinga so much worse than what other team fields? Is Puyol really that good? And Lucio? Is Pepe that good? Is Mertesacker that good? I really like Pique though. And those are some big names. What did England play next to Terry last WC? Upson? And sure Terry in his prine was really good. But is he still that good right now? There are a ton of strong teams that don't play with 2 defensive players. They all have better central defenders?
Ferdinand would've played next to Terry, but was injured last time iirc, and Englands back 4 looks stronger than ever even if Terry gets banned due to the scandals. Lescott, Cahill, Smalling, Jones, Jagielka and then Terry+Ferdinand is a crazy good depth of central defenders.
@miyo From all the ones you mentioned, yes they are better. They're faster and stronger and their football skills aren't that limited and are atleast on par with Hollands defenders. So what do we have then? A defense that's slower, weaker with equal football skills.
I'd agree that playing with 2 defensive static midfielders is really going overboard and old fashioned. I was merely giving such a statement because of our defense. He's basically making a block for insurance so he doesn't have to worry much about them which is stupid against tbh.
I'd definitely want to see Holland play more modern with a dynamic midfield. Yes v. Bommel and de Jong can play offensive but like you said. Sneijder either refuses to defend (probably) or can't defend and either way we still end up with the problem of the 2 static defensive midfielders. Benching Sneijder will never happen by v. Marwijk.
My preference is to put VDV on 10 because at least he defends but doesn't have the stamina to keep up whole game. And he's been playing more than Sneijder has for Inter.
Puyol and Terry can't play with space behind them and they are slow. Lucio and Mertesacker have limited football skills. Pepe is crazy and you never know when he will get a red card. The Netherlands certainly hasn't got the best defenders. But it is mostly lack of depth.
None of them have the pass Heitinga has. He can cross as well as F. de Boer.
On May 09 2012 00:03 Miyoshino wrote: Puyol and Terry can't play with space behind them and they are slow. Lucio and Mertesacker have limited football skills. Pepe is crazy and you never know when he will get a red card. The Netherlands certainly hasn't got the best defenders. But it is mostly lack of depth.
None of them have the pass Heitinga has. He can cross as well as F. de Boer.
The thing with some of the worlds best defenders is that they don't actually need the speed. They have perfect game sense and positioning to make up for that. Terry plays fine with a lot of space behind him in what might be the quickest league in the world.
Netherlands or Germany to take it all is my prediction, the german team in the last WC was very young but oh boy did they play well before they completely botched it v s Spain, no idea what they were doing that game. Because before it they played some insane and enjoyable games.
Sweden, in my heart though has per usual no chance to win it all. But i think we stand a decent chance to get out of our group atleast. Ukraine should be a win, France aswell and England we normally do well against so, one can hope! I have a far far faaar expectation of maybe a bronze! One can dream:D It all boils down to if Ibrahimovic plays well or not, per the usual hes pretty bad in the national team, but he has his moments. Only cause i can think of is that the team is never tailored around him like it should be(very swedish to not focus on any one individual) and that the rest of the team is just too bad to play well with him, he never gets the balls he should etc.
Any swede that is updated on our team? Is Anders Svensson STILL playing over Källström? That has to be the biggest error our team has made championship after championship. A world class player on the bench and the one in his place on the field has some subpar years in a low ranked PL club as his biggest accomplishment.
On May 08 2012 20:59 Kipsate wrote: Robin van Persie was absolutely useless in the World Cup, I hope we will use Huntelaar instead, although Persie has performed well at Arsenal he just did nothing at all for us at the World Cup pretty much, Shann is right, while Persie is good at Arsenal, he performs subpar for Holland.
Our defense sucks, for real, the only thing we have going for us is that we have a worthy successor to Van der Sar basically, Stekelenburg saved our asses multiple times.
I am not estimating our chances high against Germany, if we advance, its 2nd in the group and not first. As for Portugal, it will be a match filled with fouls and maybe even
as i remember during world cup, he just returned from a lengthy injury. In fact, he has never played the entire season for Arsenal without injury which fortunately is this year. Thus, the obvious choice for the Dutch is to play him up front.
This is also assuming that somebody is gonna pass the ball to him, not taking it by himself all the way like Robben being too selfish at times. Putting Kuyt in will help v.persie a lot from the previous international games
And of course go Netherlands! Squad i would say slighlty weaker compare to the world cup squad but still has the potential to win it
as for winning, i like to back holland or germany. if i do it on vc i get my money back if spain wins it and everyone else is too fucking terrible to do so
EPT
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