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On August 23 2011 01:59 Dayrlan wrote:
If Destiny was as unmarketable as you suggest, then Complexity wouldn't have picked him up in the first place.
And speaking of, Destiny leaving Complexity had nothing to do with marketability. It had to do with Destiny and Complexity not being a good fit for one another. Building the right relationship plays extremely strongly into this, and there's no reason why one couldn't be built with Destiny by a prospective team.
The reason Destiny isn't marketable is because he's not willing to. He won't cast for Complexity's "The V". He probably doesn't like training with the team (as opposed to his other training partners, some of who are pretty good). He probably would prefer making a lot of dough streaming and coaching rather than in team meetings, or show up on a lot of these shows for the simple sake of representing Complexity.
He could be very marketable if he changed his attitude, but it's his own personal decision, and if he likes what he does, no need to. But that does mean it's hard for a team to market him.
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For those who are appalled at the public posting of EGalex's thoughts originally sent in a private message, I have sent him another message asking if he wishes the thread to be taken down. If so, that'll be done, but no response yet.
To those who say Destiny thinks of the thread as 'retarded' or anything of the sort, I would say to you: it doesn't really matter. The thread itself is just about your opinions on some of the questions, and your supporting argument, baseless assertions and flame run rampant and I suppose if Destiny is super opposed to this threads existence then also he need only pm me and I'll take it down.
Also, the OP is lacking both on successes and failures as has been noted by many commenters, If you have an addition that is from recent weeks/months to either successes or failures please italicize it in your post henceforth and it will be added to the OP.
Stop taking this as a fanboy v. hater with people who don't care sitting watching. Just take a deep breath if you are offended by something someone (including myself in the OP) has said, and respond intelligently, and if you don't care, don't post!
It's far to heavy an atmosphere, just lighten up a little! Enjoy some lively discussion about a well known player, if you like him, if you don't, just say it with a reasonable degree of coherence and everything will go much more efficiently.
Thanks Gentlemen and Ladies!
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Destiny and Sheth are the only Streamer i watch (being a zerg of course). Here is why i love watching Destiny whenever time allows me to do so:
He is one of the nicest guys ever, same goes for Sheth of course; also he is a really honest guy. Whenever you watch him teach one of his students, he is so gentle and patient with them. He tries so hard to teach his student (and me hehe) how in his opinion the matchups work, how to take fights etc. Even though the builds and tactics he teaches might require too much micro to be good builds to teach a "bad" player, he still works hard. After watching a lot of his streaming i don't even think he is that bad-mouthed as many ppl call him to be. Just occasionally he uses some stronger expressions by accident.
About his "skills":
He is more aware of the potential of the infestor than most other zergs. That does not make him one-dimensional, neither does it make him a bad player if there was no infestor. Sure if there was no infestor he might not beat pros that often, but if there were no infestors i would start seeing pink protoss deathballs in my dreams again. I see the infestor as a much needed equalizer in many matchups (for example, large groups of thors + tanks and hellion support and scvs for repair were REALLY scary until ppl figured out that NP on the thors lets the zerg beat this army without having to lose 3 times the ressources terran loses.)
I also think of his wins listed in the first post most often as a result of people not used to infestor harass. Protoss are so used to the get-out-of-fail-button (also called warp ins) that deters most minor harassments (lings, roaches, even mutalisks; of course depending on available warpgates) but not to 32 infested marines that don't even cost anything if you manage to retreat your infestors. Therefore if a player would play Destiny a lot i expect his win ratio against that pro player to drop by 10-20%. However, knowing that Hellions will be dropped does not guarantee you a safe defense, same goes of course for infestors.
So to sum it up, he profits from the underuse of infestors by other zerg players. Still, he has awesome micro with said unit, tries to play safe with them (you see top koreans running in all infestors into a sieged army along with the rest, they seem like not even giving infestors an extra hotkey and lose them time and time again etc). So if i subtract the inexperience of other player in dealing with heavy infestor play, i would still give him a 6/10 (where 5/10 would be high master in my scaling and 10/10 would be nestea level)
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So now you put him in a position where if the thread is taken down its because he wanted it? It should have never been up originally. And once again all you do is create a separation between business and the community. How would this in any way help motivate a person like AG to respond to PM's in the future about more private matters, before it was pretty accessible and now he'll have to be wary that a thread will just create more hatred towards his work and his company.
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The way EGalex worded his response, I am very sure he knew it would not stay a private message and would be posted somewhere. A whole lot of drama about nothing in my opinion.
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why don't people make these threads about every player
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One of the reason i dislike this guy is he's doing nothing to improve E-sports or help grow the SC2 scene. He's funny and creative but he's far from a team player and should stay teamless until he changes his egocentric attitude.
Skillwise, i think he's bad but entertaining.
But with his popularity and such, he's marketable for sure but far away of Huk's value.
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I think the only disingenuous part of the OP is the idea that any factor is comparable to LAN/big tourney results when determining the value of a player. Almost all of the exceptions to this rule are a result of rampant SC1/WC3 nepotism.
Destiny is a good player and anybody who denies that is just being unreasonable. That being said, Destiny will not have community wide respect until he gets a significant finish in a major tournament. At that point nothing else will matter.
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On August 23 2011 02:58 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:59 Dayrlan wrote:
If Destiny was as unmarketable as you suggest, then Complexity wouldn't have picked him up in the first place.
And speaking of, Destiny leaving Complexity had nothing to do with marketability. It had to do with Destiny and Complexity not being a good fit for one another. Building the right relationship plays extremely strongly into this, and there's no reason why one couldn't be built with Destiny by a prospective team. The reason Destiny isn't marketable is because he's not willing to. He won't cast for Complexity's "The V". He probably doesn't like training with the team (as opposed to his other training partners, some of who are pretty good). He probably would prefer making a lot of dough streaming and coaching rather than in team meetings, or show up on a lot of these shows for the simple sake of representing Complexity. He could be very marketable if he changed his attitude, but it's his own personal decision, and if he likes what he does, no need to. But that does mean it's hard for a team to market him.
I'm sure theres plenty of players that simply don't like casting, and Destiny is probably one of them. Casting a tournament shouldn't really have to fit into marketability when your being signed as a player. Training with the team is something destiny did fairly often in Root, so i don't see why he wouldnt have done it in complexity as well. And as for the streaming thing, its his main source of revenue and he has a kid, unless a team offered him enough compensation, he kinda has to do it.
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I think the only disingenuous part of the OP is the idea that any factor is comparable to LAN/big tourney results when determining the value of a player. Almost all of the exceptions to this rule are a result of rampant SC1/WC3 nepotism.
Destiny is a good player and anybody who denies that is just being unreasonable. That being said, Destiny will not have community wide respect until he gets a significant finish in a major tournament. At that point nothing else will matter.
This is a fair assessment, I do believe that community wide respect will only be garnered when/if he wins any big tournaments. Would he receive it even then though? I mean would a team pick him up (considering all the other confounding variables) if he placed very highly in an MLG or something of that nature?
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At first he didn't impress me. NOt at all. I got confused when he was on root. AS watching him on stream and finding results from him He impressed me. He impressed me as a player and creating new tatics. But there is a difference between Ladder results and tourment. ALot of companys like EG and ETC. Want players who everyknow knows. Like huk for exsample. We all know he went to korea and some success in code A which not many players can say they have done. THey want to be able to say Hey DO you know EGhuk. Yes isn't he the player that was from liquid and went to code A and ETC. Yes with whatever happened with Root and COL and Destiny WE will never know TRuely we know what we are given. As far as i understand Destiny Is interested to be on a team. Thats his choice. WHen hes ready for a team. I think he will get offers.. But for someone to look at him he needs to win something or get close. BEcause thats what Teams look at it at the end of the day. You could be number 1 GM and lose every tourment and probably no team would touch him unless he/she. as the fan base to sell there product and feel that can get there player over the tourment Getters. Thank you for reading have a wonderful day.
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On August 23 2011 01:49 bech wrote:
You know what I find funny though? I never see Destiny BM'ing people unless they're being dicks to him. Then he'll give them a shitstorm, sure, but he never really starts it himself - not from my viewing experience anyway.. I wonder if people who dislike him actually know that.
But then again, I for one fucking hate the whole manner-thing. Come on, this is a competitive sport - and competition without emotion is nothing. You can win with grace, sure, but everyone spamming "BM" at the sight of a quirky remark is so fucking ridiculous.
Destiny is really mannered in my experience. It's just that he sometimes uses "bad words" while commentating or coaching. He doesn't actually offend anyone he just uses some words that apparently are offensive no matter what. There was a huge thread about this a while back and some discussion on I believe SotG. Since then he is labeled as "problematic".
btw. Why would you make a topic based on a PRIVATE message? Did Alex say you could go ahead and post the contents of his pm? If you didn't ask for permission before posting I would consider it very rude to do so.
Edit: My view on this is:
1. Destiny is a good player.
2. Destiny could very well be a valuable member to a team in terms of skill (there are worse players on a pro team imo)
3. Destiny isn't attractive for teams because he hasn't won anything big.
4. Destiny doesn't want to join a team because he doesn't want to do concessions for sponsors (doesn't want to change his language on his stream) and he doesn't feel it's necessary for him to be on a team.
In short: teams aren't interested in Destiny because of lack of results and Destiny doesn't want to join a team. If Destiny would go to a few pro teams and offer to join them I'm sure there will be teams that would accept if Destiny would conform to their "rules" on how to behave in public (for sponsors etc.)
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On August 23 2011 03:26 Zlasher wrote:
So now you put him in a position where if the thread is taken down its because he wanted it? It should have never been up originally. And once again all you do is create a separation between business and the community. How would this in any way help motivate a person like AG to respond to PM's in the future about more private matters, before it was pretty accessible and now he'll have to be wary that a thread will just create more hatred towards his work and his company.
So now that we've all heaped a series of posts on the thread saying that it's inappropriate that information from a PM was posted publicly, what else would you have the OP do? He's obviously interested in doing what he can to make it right. Even if that's impossible at this point (understandably), is there really a point in continuing to shit on him even when he's looking for a way to help you out?
Temper, temper, mon capitaine.
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On August 23 2011 01:24 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:10 MisterFred wrote:
Destiny is caustic and turns a lot of people off. In addition to just not wanting to be associated with his philosphy, many teams will have a legitimate concern about anti-fans. I, for one, root for complexity more often for not putting up with Destiny's rude language and casual insults. Are you a prude? Through streaming, we get a direct view at mainly adolescent and maturing individuals in the comfort of their own space. If we had athletes of other sports with home video type material, I can assure you that there might be some pretty offensive stuff to some people contained within. Not to mention that of on-field, on-ice, on-court verbal exchanges from professional games, many of such occurrences would be abhorring to many people. In fact, ask a lot of people who have been to sports events and had the ability to be within earshot of the athletes, and they'll tell you the kind of stuff that goes on during a game. Now contrast that with our sport, and whatever may be contained on streams or eSports shows, there is very little true BM that extends into live events and most players handle their matches, dealings with players and interviews quite well; Destiny included. I think we as a society/community are a little more sensitive to some things, and less towards others, and it's because we as a community have direct access to those that are quasi-"celebrities." It doesn't put those players at any less of a standpoint as other sports and their athletes however. To be honest, if there were some organizations and companies that would discredit a person over their ability to express themselves, I'd certainly like to know.
Standard apologist fair. I remember watching Gordon Hayward the first night he streamed. One of his friends said something like, "YO NIGGA!". Hayward, if you watched him closely, was mortified. You could read the terror on his face. "Oh shit, what if this gets posted to ESPN." He told his friend to "calm down" and "quit that" (I might be paraphrasing). Hayward is the same age as Destiny. The difference between the two? Hayward understands the furor that could have potentially been created had it gotten out that a room full of white 20-somethings were shouting "NIGGA!" to each other.
Destiny peddles his wares to the lowest common denominator because he realizes that is where he makes his money. He has yet to make it through the open bracket at MLG. As far as competitive StarCraft 2 goes he is a non-factor.
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On August 22 2011 13:43 viralintruder wrote:
Who would EG consider a 10/10 or even a 7/10?
No one on eg is a 10/10 that is sure. Going by that harsh a rating scale huk is prob the only one close to 7/10 as idra has many of the same faults they point out in destiny just with better results.
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On August 23 2011 04:15 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:43 viralintruder wrote:
Who would EG consider a 10/10 or even a 7/10? No one on eg is a 10/10 that is sure. Going by that harsh a rating scale huk is prob the only one close to 7/10 as idra has many of the same faults they point out in destiny just with better results.
Yea I was gonna say it's sort of sick that they would say Destiny is not marketable when they are sponsoring Idra who makes himself like an idiot at just about every tournament he attends.
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To the retards saying he's not helping E-Sports, he's coaching kids to get better that will one day be the face of E-sports...
User was warned for this post
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On August 23 2011 04:13 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:24 divito wrote:On August 23 2011 01:10 MisterFred wrote:
Destiny is caustic and turns a lot of people off. In addition to just not wanting to be associated with his philosphy, many teams will have a legitimate concern about anti-fans. I, for one, root for complexity more often for not putting up with Destiny's rude language and casual insults. Are you a prude? Through streaming, we get a direct view at mainly adolescent and maturing individuals in the comfort of their own space. If we had athletes of other sports with home video type material, I can assure you that there might be some pretty offensive stuff to some people contained within. Not to mention that of on-field, on-ice, on-court verbal exchanges from professional games, many of such occurrences would be abhorring to many people. In fact, ask a lot of people who have been to sports events and had the ability to be within earshot of the athletes, and they'll tell you the kind of stuff that goes on during a game. Now contrast that with our sport, and whatever may be contained on streams or eSports shows, there is very little true BM that extends into live events and most players handle their matches, dealings with players and interviews quite well; Destiny included. I think we as a society/community are a little more sensitive to some things, and less towards others, and it's because we as a community have direct access to those that are quasi-"celebrities." It doesn't put those players at any less of a standpoint as other sports and their athletes however. To be honest, if there were some organizations and companies that would discredit a person over their ability to express themselves, I'd certainly like to know. Standard apologist fair. I remember watching Gordon Hayward the first night he streamed. One of his friends said something like, "YO NIGGA!". Hayward, if you watched him closely, was mortified. You could read the terror on his face. "Oh shit, what if this gets posted to ESPN." He told his friend to "calm down" and "quit that" (I might be paraphrasing). Hayward is the same age as Destiny. The difference between the two? Hayward understands the furor that could have potentially been created had it gotten out that a room full of white 20-somethings were shouting "NIGGA!" to each other. Destiny peddles his wares to the lowest common denominator because he realizes that is where he makes his money. He has yet to make it through the open bracket at MLG. As far as competitive StarCraft 2 goes he is a non-factor.
Destiny also understand the reactions he could get from him saying YO NIGGA! on stream (which is much less than than in the case of Gordon Hayward btw.). He understands it and he thinks it's the dumbest thing ever so even tho he understands he doesn't change because you don't stop with what you're doing just because people around you are dumb.
He doesn't feel he offends anyone with what he says so when people complain about his language he reacts by saying you shouldn't be so dumb and just listen to what he says instead of listening to the words he uses.
I agree btw.
Also beating Rain, Puzzle, Ace, TT1 and Incontrol (just to name a few) in Bo5's and Bo3's is hardly a non factor in Esports. Incontrol is consistently placing high in MLG because of past results but at the moment you could make a strong case for him being a non-factor in Esports. A stronger case than for Destiny imo.
btw. I'm not saying Incontrol is bad, I respect the guy and he's a good player. Just saying that in comparison Destiny is just playing better at the moment.
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On August 23 2011 03:29 Destiny wrote:
why don't people make these threads about every player
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Because, none of them are as interesting and outspoken as you (which is a good thing btw). Your like the realest player out there. ...... but beware keeping it real can go wrong sometimes as Dave Chappelle has shown us.
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It is pretty rich coming from EG about the results side of things. Aside from Idra, Puma and Huk none of their players have done much. Axslav, Incontrol, Machine and LZGamer have never placed well in any tournament to my knowledge.
If EG have such high standards they should see about removing their bad players before they start calling out other people about their results.
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EPT
