Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
On March 01 2011 12:11 jazzbassmatt wrote: Hey question.
I have a gay friend who says that being "gay" isn't just about liking guys, it's about sharing a whole type of knowledge of certain people or things, so much so that he jokingly said he doesn't really feel completely gay because he hasn't ever been beaten up or abused because of his sexual preference.
What exactly does he mean? What things help to generally set apart the gay community aside from just sexual preference?
If you compare what being gay is today versus what being gay was 20 or 30 years ago, it would shed some light on what he said. Now, when a guy is going to come out of the closet, he's concerned with such things as: "will my friends still be my friends?", "will my family still love me?", "how will this reflect on me in school?". While these are pretty intense and heavy subjects to consider, they pale in comparison to what being gay was before: "If I come out of the closet, will i be committing career suicide?", "If anyone finds out i'm gay, where can i go to avoid serious harm/death?".
Gay communities exist today because we want to find other gay guys to hang out with [or sleep with], gay communities of yesterday existed to provide haven/sanctuary with sheer numbers, to avoid getting beat up or killed.
Your friend may be referring to this (as i did earlier in this thread). While i do feel like i 'know what's it's like to be gay', i've never had to be 'out' in circumstances i haven't wanted to be. I choose when i'm gay and when i'm straight.
You could think of it in this way: two black people live in a pure-white racist neighbourhood. One of them, at will, can appear to be a white person, and the other doesn't have a choice. I'm pretty certain that both of them would agree that the black guy with a 'white-switch' isn't getting the full experience of 'being black'.
Another thing: how do you see the relationship between gays and suicide?
I remember during pride week a couple months ago seeing a Facebook group titled: "In memory of all the gays who committed suicide"...and it kind of irritated me. I don't think people commit suicide because they are gay, or even that being gay has anything to do with the choice to take your own life. I do realize, however, that being gay can make life extremely difficult and cause a huge amount of internal trauma (as already discussed in this thread). Is being gay really a determining factor in why gay people commit suicide? Or is it generally something else? Just interested in your thoughts
I'm missing something. What other causes to suicide are there other than huge amounts of internal trauma and extreme living circumstances?
Yes, being gay can cause these things. I never considered suicide personally, but I know many, many, gays who did. It's less common (obviously) in liberal regions than conservative, but it still happens everywhere.
This is a particularly poignant video on said topic. (it's a little long, but extremely heart breaking and representative about how serious an issue it is.)
Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
On March 01 2011 12:39 humanimal wrote: Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
I'm with you there, bro - I call myself a Christian as well, and I'm sickened by all the "God hates fags" trash that goes on with the extremists. Anyone who "drives you away" because you claim to be gay is not following Christ's teachings and should not be thought of as a "Christian"; doing that just makes it easy for people to bash the idea of God and everything else associated with Him.
It's like saying that Joseph Stalin was an atheist and then saying, "Well, Stalin killed tons of innocent people, so atheists must be terrible, terrible people" - that's a flawed analogy because, even though Stalin WAS an atheist, he was an over-the-top extremist in many other ways. Just like "Christians" can be over-the-top extremists in many other ways. Pointing fingers at the extremists of the other camp is stupid and unprofitable; anyone with a basic sense of logic wouldn't resort to trash like that.
As for me: I think of homosexuality as a temptation that needs to be resisted, in the same way that you would resist the temptation to hurt/kill/steal/lie/cheat/etc. I wouldn't hate or try to hurt any homosexual I saw or knew, but I would definitely engage them in a discussion about why they hold the lifestyle they do, in the same way that I would discuss it with a child molester, thief, or murderer. Hurting/hating gets people nowhere.
I've heard people say "love the sinner hate the sin", is that sort of what you are getting at? I can sort of understand how a person could think that way, although as you both pointed out that sort of thinking while it sounds benign slides so easily in many cases into just regular garden-variety homophobia/hate, if of a slightly more insideous kind.
I am Christian myself, but I don't think of "gayness" as a lifestyle but rather an identity, and hence non-separable from the individual.
Can I ask, genuine question, what is the origin/primary reason for your belief that homosexuality is sinful? Is it for biblical-type reasons? Or do you believe that homosexual love qua homosexual love is inferior to hetersexual love (eg. you believe it's inherently casual or exploitative or "carnal"-rather-than-spiritual love or something of that kind)?
(For myself I believe that some samesex relationships are exploitative or insincere, as are some different-sex ones. Orientation of itself isn't a factor in judging the "Christian nature" or otherwise of a relationship, to my understanding.)
My choosing to be atheist has nothing to do with religions or their persecution of homosexuality.
The existence of mortality (ie: no life after death) makes sense to me, and more than that, makes life extremely beautiful. The thought of life being more than that is abhorrent to me (and slightly offensive). I completely the religious and their beliefs, as without my own life would be empty and despairing in comparison.
For a deeper explanation of this (and with hopes of not derailing the thread), you can read my blog on the subject.
On March 01 2011 12:39 humanimal wrote: Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
To be honest here mate, I still feel like you're being bigoted.
You obviously consider yourself to be a 'moderate' and clearly your views in this regard are far less extreme than many others. Yet you still consider homosexuality as a sin. Why?
You might not take the stance that homosexual's are a perversion to God's creation / responsible for the Christchurch earthquake or 9/11 and yet you still dismiss an entire group of people as being less than you, or in need of help and direction away from a life of sin.
I've had a number of flatmates over the years that have had a similar attitude to you. They're friendly, well intentioned people, who nonetheless see me and my gay friends as needing to be 'saved'. They might not have driven me away with pitchforks, but it doesn't change the fact that I was unable to have any meaningful relationship with them.
Its the same with anybody who doesn't accept me for simply who I am, be they well intentioned Christians or pretentious wankers.
On March 01 2011 12:39 humanimal wrote: Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
To be honest here mate, I still feel like you're being bigoted.
You obviously consider yourself to be a 'moderate' and clearly your views in this regard are far less extreme than many others. Yet you still consider homosexuality as a sin. Why?
You might not take the stance that homosexual's are a perversion to God's creation / responsible for the Christchurch earthquake or 9/11 and yet you still dismiss an entire group of people as being less than you, or in need of help and direction away from a life of sin.
I've had a number of flatmates over the years that have had a similar attitude to you. They're friendly, well intentioned people, who nonetheless see me and my gay friends as needing to be 'saved'. They might not have driven me away with pitchforks, but it doesn't change the fact that I was unable to have any meaningful relationship with them.
Its the same with anybody who doesn't accept me for simply who I am, be they well intentioned Christians or pretentious wankers.
While i appreciate your position on this, and can see the relevance being that you are gay and have had dealings with people like whom you've quoted, this subject is not the intention of the thread and will move it further away from staying on topic.
It is rare for a thread to remain on topic after 51 pages; i'm aiming to keep it this way.
edit - i appreciate that all further responses on this topic are going to occur in private messages.
On March 01 2011 12:39 humanimal wrote: Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
To be honest here mate, I still feel like you're being bigoted.
You obviously consider yourself to be a 'moderate' and clearly your views in this regard are far less extreme than many others. Yet you still consider homosexuality as a sin. Why?
You might not take the stance that homosexual's are a perversion to God's creation / responsible for the Christchurch earthquake or 9/11 and yet you still dismiss an entire group of people as being less than you, or in need of help and direction away from a life of sin.
I've had a number of flatmates over the years that have had a similar attitude to you. They're friendly, well intentioned people, who nonetheless see me and my gay friends as needing to be 'saved'. They might not have driven me away with pitchforks, but it doesn't change the fact that I was unable to have any meaningful relationship with them.
Its the same with anybody who doesn't accept me for simply who I am, be they well intentioned Christians or pretentious wankers.
While i appreciate your position on this, and can see the relevance being that you are gay and have had dealings with people like whom you've quoted, this subject is not the intention of the thread and will move it further away from staying on topic.
It is rare for a thread to remain on topic after 51 pages; i'm aiming to keep it this way.
Yeah I actually just took a quick look over the previous pages and saw that i'd probably gone off topic a little... as well as coming across overly aggressive.
A sudden grip of anger, but not at the person I was responding to.
My apologies, I'll edit the post out if you'd like?
On March 01 2011 13:05 chocopan wrote: Can I ask, genuine question, what is the origin/primary reason for your belief that homosexuality is sinful? Is it for biblical-type reasons? Or do you believe that homosexual love qua homosexual love is inferior to hetersexual love (eg. you believe it's inherently casual or exploitative or "carnal"-rather-than-spiritual love or something of that kind)?
I'm trying not to de-rail the thread too much, so I'll keep it short: there are several mentions of homosexuality in the Bible, namely by apostle Paul, that describe it as arising from excessive amounts of lust; i.e. your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex as sex objects/partners, etc. = "homosexuality."
From my own experience I can say that many homosexual men I've heard/read about were not actually homosexuals at all; they started out having sex with tons of girls and basically living the crazy life. Then when that wasn't enough, they turned to other guys.
On March 01 2011 13:05 chocopan wrote: Can I ask, genuine question, what is the origin/primary reason for your belief that homosexuality is sinful? Is it for biblical-type reasons? Or do you believe that homosexual love qua homosexual love is inferior to hetersexual love (eg. you believe it's inherently casual or exploitative or "carnal"-rather-than-spiritual love or something of that kind)?
I'm trying not to de-rail the thread too much, so I'll keep it short: there are several mentions of homosexuality in the Bible, namely by apostle Paul, that describe it as arising from excessive amounts of lust; i.e. your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex as sex objects/partners, etc. = "homosexuality."
This. Homosexually as a sin is Bibically founded, not a derivation of the human mind (if you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired at least).
On March 01 2011 12:39 humanimal wrote: Hmmm, it seems like this thread is getting a lot of attention (not that that's a bad thing!)
Anyways, I was reading through the first couple of pages of comments and I noticed you had a list of traits/characteristics of yourself. The first one (Fiercely Atheist?) caught my attention.
I just wanted to ask you why you believe that and if it has anything to do with persecution from various religious groups shoving their beliefs down your (or other people's) throats.
I, personally, am a Christian and it for a while, I had that "God hates fags" mentality. But the more I learned and grew, the more I realized that, people just took a more uncommon "sin" and tried to put more weight on it. And I think that's where all the hatred stems from. People always go off saying "You're going to hell because you're a perversion to God's creation" and stuff like that... Not going to say that that isn't true, but honestly, I don't think being homosexual is any worse (or any better) than other sins, most similarly lust.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a religious argument or something on bigotry, I just was wondering why you take the stance on "There is no god," and to apologize for the "Christians" who may have driven you away because of your sexual orientation. Having been one of those kinds of people (although I never actively did anything, just cringed away at the people) I regret not having shown Christ's love better.
To be honest here mate, I still feel like you're being bigoted.
You obviously consider yourself to be a 'moderate' and clearly your views in this regard are far less extreme than many others. Yet you still consider homosexuality as a sin. Why?
You might not take the stance that homosexual's are a perversion to God's creation / responsible for the Christchurch earthquake or 9/11 and yet you still dismiss an entire group of people as being less than you, or in need of help and direction away from a life of sin.
I've had a number of flatmates over the years that have had a similar attitude to you. They're friendly, well intentioned people, who nonetheless see me and my gay friends as needing to be 'saved'. They might not have driven me away with pitchforks, but it doesn't change the fact that I was unable to have any meaningful relationship with them.
Its the same with anybody who doesn't accept me for simply who I am, be they well intentioned Christians or pretentious wankers.
I would actually say that I am not moderate and that my views are not less extreme than others. But I would say that my view is far more focused on the main point of Christianity - God's love and redemption. Bear in mind that nominal American Christianity is in a world of its own. A lot of times, there is too much focus on love (and thereby forgoing the holiness and wrath of God) or there is hatred and bigotry with regards to specific sins instead of sin as a whole. I do believe that homosexuality is a perversion of creation, but bear in mind that I also believe lust and any other sin is a perversion of creation simply based on the fact that sin is deviation from God and His original intentions for creation. I don't think that earthquakes and 9/11 and other tragedies are the fault of homosexuality. I think it's a fault of sin. As for the acceptance issue, I just want to say that it's hard to find a balance and I myself still struggle with it. If you had a treasure you believed to be worth giving up everything for, and you could share this with a friend, would you not? The idea of evangelism for me personally is that if I have something that will save a friend or peer from eternal damnation, should I out of love not share that information?
Imagine a man burning on the side of the road. A bystander witnesses this, runs over and tackles the guy, putting out the fire but in the process, breaks his bones. Now, if someone criticized this act saying, "You broke his bones, where's the love in that?" we would likely disregard his comment, noticing that the bystander saved the burning man's life, even at the expense of his skeletal structure (something less important). Evangelism in the same sense should have the mindset of redefining a world (even at the cost of sounding bigoted when taken out of context) in hopes of preventing a worse fate from occurring (in this case hell).
Unfortunately, this leads to a selling-point mentality where people say "Let's get them to believe in God, go to church, read the Bible, etc. and then move onto the next needy person." When in fact, what the Bible preaches is to love first God (and as an expression, to follow his commandments) and to love your neighbors. While the end result is ultimately the same, having this slight difference in mindset leads to a whole different tone and has resulted in the Christian faith being viewed in a multitude of negative ways.
TL;DR: The public Christian belief has been skewed in so many different ways that it has become ineffective and in some ways false. I believe that God is a holy God and needs to deal with sin (whether it's sexual orientation, stealing, murder, or any of the numerous commandments) with justice in a large scale of things. The reason why people come off as "so-and-so needs to be save" is because, if we believe that sin is inherited, all people do need to be saved, so do not take it personally because you do/believe _________.
As a final note, when has disagreeing with someone's beliefs become synonymous with being bigoted? It bugs me when people use this as a defense against others. Being bigoted is being intolerant. Tolerance is not agreement, it's acceptance. Which I have tried to stress here.
Apologies to Mora, I just felt that this was relevant and needed to be posted here. I'll continue the rest of this discussion (if need be) in PMs.
EDIT (missed some questions):
On March 01 2011 13:05 chocopan wrote: I've heard people say "love the sinner hate the sin", is that sort of what you are getting at? I can sort of understand how a person could think that way, although as you both pointed out that sort of thinking while it sounds benign slides so easily in many cases into just regular garden-variety homophobia/hate, if of a slightly more insideous kind.
Kind of, although I dislike the saying "love the sinner hate the sin." God loves people, but remember that He hates sin and as sinners, He in a way did hate us. But because of his desire for well-deserved glory, He overcame darkness, sin, and alienation, to fix the broken relationship held between creation and the Creator. But my main point is not so much "love the sinner hate the sin" as so much as hatred for homosexuality (and those who practice it) simply because it is a sin is not a valid reason because that's nitpicking your sins. If a person hates homosexuality with such fervor, they ought to be fair in hating the rest of sin (including their own) with such fervor. Seek holiness all around, not just in less common sins. Therefore, all those who struggle with lust for the opposite gender... it's not any better than a different sexual orientation.
On March 01 2011 13:05 chocopan wrote: Can I ask, genuine question, what is the origin/primary reason for your belief that homosexuality is sinful? Is it for biblical-type reasons? Or do you believe that homosexual love qua homosexual love is inferior to hetersexual love (eg. you believe it's inherently casual or exploitative or "carnal"-rather-than-spiritual love or something of that kind)?
I'm trying not to de-rail the thread too much, so I'll keep it short: there are several mentions of homosexuality in the Bible, namely by apostle Paul, that describe it as arising from excessive amounts of lust; i.e. your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex as sex objects/partners, etc. = "homosexuality."
From my own experience I can say that many homosexual men I've heard/read about were not actually homosexuals at all; they started out having sex with tons of girls and basically living the crazy life. Then when that wasn't enough, they turned to other guys.
What you illustrate is the epitome of repressed old sheep who can't repress any longer, who can't live a facade and manufacture a life any more, coming out and then, through either their self loathing or social pressure, projecting and localizing their feelings to another group in order to escape the truth about who they are. The repression is the problem in the first place, and it ends with the realization that homosexuality is neither a sin nor something coming from excessive amounts of lust. You really do betray the truth about repression when you say "your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex" as a contrast to your controlled lust that perhaps you put onto a woman whom you don't even love. It ends now.
As for me: I think of homosexuality as a temptation that needs to be resisted, in the same way that you would resist the temptation to hurt/kill/steal/lie/cheat/etc. I wouldn't hate or try to hurt any homosexual I saw or knew, but I would definitely engage them in a discussion about why they hold the lifestyle they do, in the same way that I would discuss it with a child molester, thief, or murderer. Hurting/hating gets people nowhere.
That's really interesting. I'm a member of the LDS (mormon) church, and while the church gets a HUGE amount of criticism for its views on California prop. 8 and its views on homosexuality in general, I think, doctrinally speaking, the LDS church (perhaps with many other churches) shares your viewpoint. Of course, within the LDS church and its conservative culture, I'm sure there are many people who are very prejudiced and even hateful against gays, especially towards people they know (such as their children) who they find out are gay.
I think, though, that it is possible to see homosexuality as something wrong without necessarily discriminating against all gays. For example, in elementary school assemblies, I remember being encouraged to see the act of smoking as wrong, but not to see "smokers" as bad people.
Sure, plenty of people would strongly disagree, and say that calling homosexuality wrong inherently prejudices us against homosexuals (because it insults their lifestyle). And it's a much more difficult argument to make, because there's nothing really objectively wrong with homosexuality in the way there is something objectively wrong with smoking. (For example, in countries that are overpopulated, having a higher percentage of homosexuals may even be a good thing.) Because calling homosexuality wrong relies entirely depends on belief, it's much more open to prejudice. But given that, I think it is still okay to believe that homosexuality is wrong, as long as you don't see "homosexuals" as bad people.
Enough derailing already. We don't need christians coming in here telling us we're living sinful lives but they forgive us because they are so awesome and well-intentioned and loving and caring.
On March 01 2011 13:40 Roe wrote: What you illustrate is the epitome of repressed old sheep who can't repress any longer, who can't live a facade and manufacture a life any more, coming out and then, through either their self loathing or social pressure, projecting and localizing their feelings to another group in order to escape the truth about who they are. The repression is the problem in the first place, and it ends with the realization that homosexuality is neither a sin nor something coming from excessive amounts of lust. You really do betray the truth about repression when you say "your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex" as a contrast to your controlled lust that perhaps you put onto a woman whom you don't even love. It ends now.
I'm not sure which arbitrary philosophy you're using as your guiding light, but I'm going to guess it's some sort of pseudo-Freudian outlook on life, where every time you don't give in to some temptation or drive, you're "suppressing" yourself and "living behind a facade."
If you really look at life that way, then tell all the murderers, robbers, rapists, and cheaters that they can go right on killing, stealing, raping, and cheating - after all, if they don't, they're just "repressing" themselves like "old sheep", as you say, right?
I guess it doesn't occur to you that some of our drives and inner urges are actually destructive, harmful, and should be controlled and beaten back. I am also amused to see that you can't differentiate between animal lust and human love...I hope you live long enough to find out that there IS a difference.
Funny, you're the second person I've encountered on TL who thinks that suppressing drives and urges is a bad thing. I think that's a pretty blatant fallacy that you should consider thinking about if you don't want to be ignorant.
@humanimal I feel I understand where you're coming from now. We've probably reached the point where further discussion is pointless anyway. If I believed, like you, that a fiery hell existed, I would likely share exactly the same opinions and attitudes. It flows on logically. I don't however, and nothing you can say shall convince me otherwise, I would require direct evidence. You're likely in exactly the same position.
Back on topic, i've spent the last half hour reading through this thread. Partly as a sort of self imposed penance for the guilt I felt from taking it off topic. What a great thread! People calmly having often friendly discussions about all sorts of topics. Actually responding to each other!
I love this site, and over the years, am proud to have been a part of it.
That being said, I don't know if others have been feeling this, but lately on TL i've been feeling increasingly isolated. One posts something constructive, thoughtful or friendly (EDIT: though perhaps my ego is getting in the way here )... and it's immediately lost in five pages of vacuous comments.
MSN and battle.net aside, I'm struggling to recall the last time I truly interacted with somebody else on this forum. Though, I admit, I'm probably partly to blame for not getting as involved as I once was.
As such, I have a question to pose to people here: Leaving aside TL's utility as a source for information, what do you like most about it? And on a slightly different tack, do you feel (if you'll forgive the phrase), that the place is more 'gay friendly' than elsewhere?
On March 01 2011 14:06 Husnan wrote: Enough derailing already. We don't need christians coming in here telling us we're living sinful lives but they forgive us because they are so awesome and well-intentioned and loving and caring.
Yeah, I agree. Christians have a way of putting down everyone that isn't like them in the name of tolerance...and it really is irritating. But I guess I'm still not really convinced...for example, I see using illegal drugs as wrong, but I actually probably like spending time with drug users more than other people. And it's not because I'm trying to "fix" them or "show them the light of repentance"--I just have friends who use lots of drugs but who I also enjoy being with, as a friend, not as their personal moral therapist.
On March 01 2011 13:05 chocopan wrote: Can I ask, genuine question, what is the origin/primary reason for your belief that homosexuality is sinful? Is it for biblical-type reasons? Or do you believe that homosexual love qua homosexual love is inferior to hetersexual love (eg. you believe it's inherently casual or exploitative or "carnal"-rather-than-spiritual love or something of that kind)?
I'm trying not to de-rail the thread too much, so I'll keep it short: there are several mentions of homosexuality in the Bible, namely by apostle Paul, that describe it as arising from excessive amounts of lust; i.e. your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex as sex objects/partners, etc. = "homosexuality."
From my own experience I can say that many homosexual men I've heard/read about were not actually homosexuals at all; they started out having sex with tons of girls and basically living the crazy life. Then when that wasn't enough, they turned to other guys.
Hey asshole, i want you to explain something to me.
What was your thought process in posting this:
so I'll keep it short: there are several mentions of homosexuality in the Bible, namely by apostle Paul, that describe it as arising from excessive amounts of lust; i.e. your uncontrolled lust leads you to choose members of the same sex as sex objects/partners, etc. = "homosexuality."
From my own experience I can say that many homosexual men I've heard/read about were not actually homosexuals at all; they started out having sex with tons of girls and basically living the crazy life. Then when that wasn't enough, they turned to other guys.
On March 01 2011 14:12 Alethios wrote: As such, I have a question to pose to people here: Leaving aside TL's utility as a source for information, what do you like most about it? And on a slightly different tack, do you feel (if you'll forgive the phrase), that the place is more 'gay friendly' than elsewhere?
I love TL for many reasons (which i will save for responding in a "what do you love about tl.net thread") but to answer your question regarding "gay-friendly", I'd have to say yes -- TL.net was created and has always been maintained by open-minded tolerant individuals who do have tolerance for bigotry. This is as true today as it was when I met the crew 10 years ago.
Mora, I just want you to know that your a super awesome person(I'm sure you already know)
My question for this thread is when people say things like "I wouldn't mind homosexuals so much if they wouldn't be so flamboyant and in my face about being gay" which i hear a ton where I am from. how do you deal with those people who don't get the counter point of "I wouldn't mind heterosexuals so much if they wouldn't be so flamboyant and in my face about being straight". As in how do you deal with people that can't understand that your gay but won't just leave you alone about it.
EPT
)... and it's immediately lost in five pages of vacuous comments.
