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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On October 28 2012 02:59 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 02:37 JeeJee wrote:All this talk about how very high / high etc mmr works.. can we see some sources? I know it's not the first time I'm asking, but I'm interested  As far as I see in my own experience, the high/very high/medium is just a broad way of categorizing the pages on which matches appear, which are a way of ordering the games based on the mmr of the players within. Not once have I been in a low numbered game that later turned out to be high or medium skilled. And the players there are definitely better than players at the 50+ page mark. I don't think how the actual game goes has any relation to whether it gets classified as high or not.. since the pages are determined before the game starts which appear to me to also determine the skill of the game. I could be wrong of course, I don't have any sources..these are just my observations. That's why I'd like some sources for your claims! Of course if you don't have any, it'd be important to preface your posts with that so I know whether I'm wasting my time! You'll have to ask Valve for those. The only things that have been confirmed, through various interviews and "blue posts" is that the mmr is dynamic (meaning, no brackets). And that the viewing brackets should largely be ignored by yourself as a player, as its only meant as a suggestion on what you should watch. What the exact factors deciding what bracket a game goes into, no one knows. We only get small bits of pieces of hints here and there, like the teams being balanced around the players with highest mmr instead of average, I remember reading about only a few days ago. The rest is based on logic and other systems (like sc2's). If someone have any more info, I'd love to hear them too. But people should stop thinking themselves a "very high" player, just because they've had matches in the very high bracket, because they're not. This is the only thing we know for sure 100%.Hopefully we'll be able to figure out more when team matchmaking starts up, as we'll have some actual numbers to look at.
How do we know this 100% again?
Seems to fly contrary to my observations -- if you are queueing and you're always in very high games, your mmr is pretty good. Of course if you're mostly medium/high and on a couple of occasions (due to waiting a long time for a match for example) you ended up in a very high game, that's different, but that's common sense.
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On October 28 2012 03:03 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 02:59 Excludos wrote:On October 28 2012 02:37 JeeJee wrote:All this talk about how very high / high etc mmr works.. can we see some sources? I know it's not the first time I'm asking, but I'm interested As far as I see in my own experience, the high/very high/medium is just a broad way of categorizing the pages on which matches appear, which are a way of ordering the games based on the mmr of the players within. Not once have I been in a low numbered game that later turned out to be high or medium skilled. And the players there are definitely better than players at the 50+ page mark. I don't think how the actual game goes has any relation to whether it gets classified as high or not.. since the pages are determined before the game starts which appear to me to also determine the skill of the game. I could be wrong of course, I don't have any sources..these are just my observations. That's why I'd like some sources for your claims! Of course if you don't have any, it'd be important to preface your posts with that so I know whether I'm wasting my time! You'll have to ask Valve for those. The only things that have been confirmed, through various interviews and "blue posts" is that the mmr is dynamic (meaning, no brackets). And that the viewing brackets should largely be ignored by yourself as a player, as its only meant as a suggestion on what you should watch. What the exact factors deciding what bracket a game goes into, no one knows. We only get small bits of pieces of hints here and there, like the teams being balanced around the players with highest mmr instead of average, I remember reading about only a few days ago. The rest is based on logic and other systems (like sc2's). If someone have any more info, I'd love to hear them too. But people should stop thinking themselves a "very high" player, just because they've had matches in the very high bracket, because they're not. This is the only thing we know for sure 100%.Hopefully we'll be able to figure out more when team matchmaking starts up, as we'll have some actual numbers to look at. How do we know this 100% again? Seems to fly contrary to my observations -- if you are queueing and you're always in very high games, your mmr is pretty good. Of course if you're mostly medium/high and on a couple of occasions (due to waiting a long time for a match for example) you ended up in a very high game, that's different, but that's common sense.
Well, the system needs to place the game in a bracket somehow, so mmr is going to be a factor. There was also this 2 hour game with complete noobs that ended up in that bracket, so presumably game length is another. The game also rates your performance with the hero you're playing, so that could be a potential third factor.
All this adds up. And like you said, if all your games are in the very high bracket, then your mmr is most likely about to touch the moon. But just because you -have- games in the very high bracket, doesn't actually need to mean anything. This last point is where most people are confused about (I have a game in the very high bracket, thus my mmr must be "very high"!). Common sense does not apply in dota2 
edit: I've been trying to find an interview about this with Valve, where they talked about this exact topic. But I can't for the life of me find it 
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i'm pretty sure bracket is only dependent on mmr
that's how every other game works, and that's the only thing that makes sense anyway
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On October 28 2012 04:35 Dead9 wrote:
i'm pretty sure bracket is only dependent on mmr
that's how every other game works, and that's the only thing that makes sense anyway
its also a lot more expensive on the servers if it wasnt.
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edit2: nvm. I can't find the interview. No point to continue arguing.
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@Excludos: I think your point is completely incorrect. Do you really believe that the brackets have absolutely no meaning at all? Riddle me this: progamers with 500+ games on their account, better than 99.9% of the playing population, will have 33% games appearing in normal bracket?
Proof: I took a name I saw on page 1 of the live games list: aL S0ny (so you can search him up yourself). In the last month, all but 4 of his games appeared in the very high bracket. These 4 were in the high bracket, none were in the normal bracket. I can do this with a random dude somewhere between normal/high brackets: Shikyo. 37 games in normal, 20 in high, zero in very high.
I would like to think that aL S0ny is better than Shikyo. The brackets prove it.
You do you actually think that these brackets are bullshit?
E: Sorry Shikyo, your name was the first one I could think of.
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On October 28 2012 09:36 Heh_ wrote:
@Excludos: I think your point is completely incorrect. Do you really believe that the brackets have absolutely no meaning at all? Riddle me this: progamers with 500+ games on their account, better than 99.9% of the playing population, will have 33% games appearing in normal bracket?
Proof: I took a name I saw on page 1 of the live games list: aL S0ny (so you can search him up yourself). In the last month, all but 4 of his games appeared in the very high bracket. These 4 were in the high bracket, none were in the normal bracket. I can do this with a random dude somewhere between normal/high brackets: Shikyo. 37 games in normal, 20 in high, zero in very high.
I would like to think that aL S0ny is better than Shikyo. The brackets prove it.
You do you actually think that these brackets are bullshit?
E: Sorry Shikyo, your name was the first one I could think of.
I've already answered this earlier. Infact, on this very page.
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United States1201 Posts
A friend was in a game with a TA.
She refused to gank at all, just sat in mid farming for an upwards of 28 minutes.
8 kills by the end of the game.
TA is not a hard carry.
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You haven't answered anything, you are seriously starting to be annoying with your "brackets don't tell anything". They actually do, stop making silly theories about game lenght or similar affecting em and please do not use term dynamic MMR couse i'm quite sure you have no idea what does that even mean. In Valve interview they actually compared it to scale of 1-100 from what i remember, so if 9 players in game sits at lets say 90 game appears in very high. Yes, i made this number couse no one knows exact values. Now can we go back to QQ?
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On October 28 2012 10:30 Narw wrote:
You haven't answered anything, you are seriously starting to be annoying with your "brackets don't tell anything". They actually do, stop making silly theories about game lenght or similar affecting em and please do not use term dynamic MMR couse i'm quite sure you have no idea what does that even mean. In Valve interview they actually compared it to scale of 1-100 from what i remember, so if 9 players in game sits at lets say 90 game appears in very high. Yes, i made this number couse no one knows exact values. Now can we go back to QQ?
He had a question, and I've answered it on this very page. So yes, I did answer "anything". I've also stated several times that mmr DO factor in the bracket thingie, but also the fact that you have games in the "very high" bracket does NOT mean that you now are in a bracket called "very high", which is contradictory to popular belief. There is no bracket system in dota 2 that works like sc2 where you can tell people "hey, I'm in gold league". But if all your games are in "very high" bracket viewing option, then your mmr is likely to be very high.
Its not rocket science.
but I agree with one thing. This has gone off topic too long. Lets get back to QQ'ing.
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On October 28 2012 10:37 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 10:30 Narw wrote:
You haven't answered anything, you are seriously starting to be annoying with your "brackets don't tell anything". They actually do, stop making silly theories about game lenght or similar affecting em and please do not use term dynamic MMR couse i'm quite sure you have no idea what does that even mean. In Valve interview they actually compared it to scale of 1-100 from what i remember, so if 9 players in game sits at lets say 90 game appears in very high. Yes, i made this number couse no one knows exact values. Now can we go back to QQ? He had a question, and I've answered it on this very page. So yes, I did answer "anything". I've also stated several times that mmr DO factor in the bracket thingie, but also the fact that you have games in the "very high" bracket does NOT mean that you now are in a bracket called "very high", which is contradictory to popular belief. There is no bracket system in dota 2 that works like sc2 where you can tell people "hey, I'm in gold league". But if all your games are in "very high" bracket viewing option, then your mmr is likely to be very high.Its not rocket science. but I agree with one thing. This has gone off topic too long. Lets get back to QQ'ing.
Wat.
On October 27 2012 21:29 Excludos wrote:
And no, it does not work like the brakcets in sc2. Just get this through your head: There is very little correlation between your mmr and what your game might be labeled as. If you go around and tell people "Dude, I'm like in the very high bracket", which many are, you are telling them exactly nothing.
No shit Sherlock, contradictory to your belief, we never said brackets are fixed. Just because MMR is not directly indicated like SC2 leagues, doesn't mean that brackets have absolutely no meaning.
Geez, I wonder who's the uninformed person who went off-topic in the first place.
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On October 28 2012 10:37 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 10:30 Narw wrote:
You haven't answered anything, you are seriously starting to be annoying with your "brackets don't tell anything". They actually do, stop making silly theories about game lenght or similar affecting em and please do not use term dynamic MMR couse i'm quite sure you have no idea what does that even mean. In Valve interview they actually compared it to scale of 1-100 from what i remember, so if 9 players in game sits at lets say 90 game appears in very high. Yes, i made this number couse no one knows exact values. Now can we go back to QQ? He had a question, and I've answered it on this very page. So yes, I did answer "anything". I've also stated several times that mmr DO factor in the bracket thingie, but also the fact that you have games in the "very high" bracket does NOT mean that you now are in a bracket called "very high", which is contradictory to popular belief. There is no bracket system in dota 2 that works like sc2 where you can tell people "hey, I'm in gold league". But if all your games are in "very high" bracket viewing option, then your mmr is likely to be very high. Its not rocket science. but I agree with one thing. This has gone off topic too long. Lets get back to QQ'ing.
I think it's very much like starcraft actually. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't play sc2 but -- just because you're in gold league doesn't mean you only get matched against gold people. I believe you can easily be in gold and playing against silvers or diamonds or whatever. So in that sense there isn't really "brackets" in sc2 either by your definition -- which, let's face it, is a silly definition.
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When you search game, it's based on MMR, but the finished games that you see are not strictly based on MMR.
When you click search game, the game will use your MMR as the starting range to search the game (remember the range that gets wider with time?), the longer you have to wait, the bigger the MMR range that is being searched. In the end of the day, it's not surprised that you end up with a pubstomp, and the game might still list as very high.
There're actually other factors that change your quality of game too. For example, my games are usually listed as high/very high when I play US server, but when I search SEA server, those games usually listed as normal/high. So are my friends, who usually very high in SEA server, but normal/high in US server.
And from my personal solo queue experience, very high quality games usually has at least one stack 3/4/5 in there, which kind of understandable because a good performance/coordination from 3,4,5 people, or good hero performance can lead to a very high quality game.
It's all speculation of course. But I agree that if majority of your games are in very high bracket, your mmr should probably belong there, if your games swing like me, you probably don't.
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On October 28 2012 10:55 canikizu wrote:
When you search game, it's based on MMR, but the finished games that you see are not strictly based on MMR.
When you click search game, the game will use your MMR as the starting range to search the game (remember the range that gets wider with time?), the longer you have to wait, the bigger the MMR range that is being searched. In the end of the day, it's not surprised that you end up with a pubstomp, and the game might still list as very high.
There're actually other factors that change your quality of game too. For example, my games are usually listed as high/very high when I play US server, but when I search SEA server, those games usually listed as normal/high. So are my friends, who usually very high in SEA server, but normal/high in US server.
And from my personal solo queue experience, very high quality games usually has at least one stack 3/4/5 in there, which kind of understandable because a good performance/coordination from 3,4,5 people, or good hero performance can lead to a very high quality game.
It's all speculation of course. But I agree that if majority of your games are in very high bracket, your mmr should probably belong there, if your games swing like me, you probably don't.
dingdingding!
Can we stop this offtopic arguement now? I've taken it to PM with "heh_" to stop cluttering the thread. Anyone else who feels like continuing it should do the same. I know I started it, and I take responsibility for that. Now lets let it die. (until the next person who comes along and says "I know I play good because my mmr is in the very high bracket! And someone else comes along and tries to explain how this friggin game works)
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On October 28 2012 11:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 10:55 canikizu wrote:
When you search game, it's based on MMR, but the finished games that you see are not strictly based on MMR.
When you click search game, the game will use your MMR as the starting range to search the game (remember the range that gets wider with time?), the longer you have to wait, the bigger the MMR range that is being searched. In the end of the day, it's not surprised that you end up with a pubstomp, and the game might still list as very high.
There're actually other factors that change your quality of game too. For example, my games are usually listed as high/very high when I play US server, but when I search SEA server, those games usually listed as normal/high. So are my friends, who usually very high in SEA server, but normal/high in US server.
And from my personal solo queue experience, very high quality games usually has at least one stack 3/4/5 in there, which kind of understandable because a good performance/coordination from 3,4,5 people, or good hero performance can lead to a very high quality game.
It's all speculation of course. But I agree that if majority of your games are in very high bracket, your mmr should probably belong there, if your games swing like me, you probably don't. dingdingding! Can we stop this offtopic arguement now? I've taken it to PM with "heh_" to stop cluttering the thread. Anyone else who feels like continuing it should do the same. I know I started it, and I take responsibility for that. Now lets let it die. (until the next person who comes along and says "I know I play good because my mmr is in the very high bracket! And someone else comes along and tries to explain how this friggin game works)
Hint: I perfectly agree with what canikizu said.
Second hint: You're grossly misunderstanding everything that we said. You have this own special definition of "bracket" that you impose on everything, even though we have clearly defined whatever we have said.
Third hint: Reread your own posts and tell me that you actually know what you're talking about. I highlighted the parts that were egregiously wrong. But the rest of the posts were too.
Fourth hint: Find something that I've said, that's blatantly untrue. Good luck with that.
E: Let's make this post into a QQ. Why do people come into this thread, making erroneous claims without reading what others have wrote?
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Centaur is so. Goddam. Broken.
That is all.
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On October 28 2012 14:39 Audemed wrote:
Centaur is so. Goddam. Broken.
That is all.
Drow needs a bit of a nerf too...She's Ridiculous in Mid game if she gets a couple of kills ganking and shit...She Snowballs so hard right now it's not even funny..
Ironically , the only way to counter Drow Right now is Centaur , who is even more broken..
"Oh , you three heroes wanna gank me , Stampede-Stun-Run away/Set up kills if teammates nearby"
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my prayers have been answered, i am finally on the winning team, hallelujah
the trick apparently is to not search for all pick games 
keeping it on topic - i cant lane for shit as VS, dat 400 range really fucks me up
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Morphling has a 22% winrate against centaur and has the lowest winrate in the game against meepo
Sad times to be a morphling
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On October 28 2012 15:02 pyro19 wrote:
Drow needs a bit of a nerf too...She's Ridiculous in Mid game if she gets a couple of kills ganking and shit...She Snowballs so hard right now it's not even funny.
Drow's aura is basically Mega Ranged Creeps as the game goes on...reminds me of Nature's Prophet, except she doesn't even need to be nearby.
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EPT
