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Im the original creator of that post and I must say Im suprised it spread to Teamliquid also.
In any case we the foreigners are the ones losing out here. True kespa did alot for starcraft but what did they do to make the game more international? We had to go underground to stream matches live and all these years there was not a single event that had English coverage until the Gom events. Kespa could have easily done it. They could have picked up tasteless and artosis or get some commentators from fansites but they decided not to. And when gomtv finally started broadcasting a tournament with english coverage they banned certain teams from participating in it.
Is this a governing body that we really want in the starcraft community when starcraft 2 comes out? One that prevents starcraft from going international?
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whats with this weird kespa defense? What good has kespa done in the past 2 years? what bad? Have we already forgotten the IEG bullshit? the ppp stuff? The killing of various leagues in the years before that?
I honestly don't get this staff led charge to paint kespa in some kind of positive light, and I don't get, why with all the evidence around us, people are actually buying into this.
KeSPA is a badly run organization that in current form does not look out for players, does not look out for teams and does not look out for the sport. It may have been a good thing in the past, but it certainly isn't doing a good job now. The players need to hurry up and actually get their own players association
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Sweden33723 Posts
Lol what staff led charge?
On July 27 2009 09:44 Kennigit wrote:
Yes this is true. Has to do with blizzard/kespa politics and ESPORTS drama. I was hoping Paul Sams would jump on stage and slice the KESPA president's chest open with Frostmourne.
On July 27 2009 09:46 Kennigit wrote:
KESPA still had governance over estars or at least heavy heavy sway with it's organizers...it makes perfect sense. It has nothing to do with the progamers. It's Kespa vs Blizzard. That is all this is about.
KeSPAs decision to fight Blizzard can only have been born out of a desire to screw up their own future. It's like one day they said to themselves; "Hey, we finally have a chance to take our national sport and make it international - how do we best fuck this up and piss as many people off as possible in the process?".
Anyway, as I said in the topics about whether GOM is KeSPA approved or not, having people from competing game channels decide whether a new league is official or not.. is BAD.
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Agree with fusionsdf, anything I've read about kespa in the few years I've followed the korean scene has been something I've found to be in some way unfair, especially the IEG scandal that made me (and many others) concerned about if its even possible theres a future in the scene, I remember that one OSL/MSL/PL final where it started without sounds and all they had was that long text scrolling on top of the video stream explaining the situation.
Now I don't know anything about this exact case and obviously its not fair to blame them if they didn't even have any plans on broadcasting it, but why were there streams then? Were they just ment for the other games?
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Look guys, KeSPA is not needed. I hope to see GOM take the lead role. Blizzard can pump GOM full of money and they do a better job than OSL/MSL. They will have an international and national market and can develop tournaments a lot better and showcase them to a greater audience.
Now, as KeSPA is a governing body it wouldn't take much to dissolve and reinstitute a more gamer oriented body politic. That is to say, with a neutral governing body who's only job it is, is to promote the game, make sure the tournaments are run smoothly, and create a set of rules that aren't strangling and allows for EXPRESSION. You can't even hardly celebrate, you can't type anything during the game, and you are so confined in what you can and can't do that its suffocating. I'm sure you all remember how in 2002 it's A LOT funner to watch because you never know what may happen and the players can express themselves and not become robots.
I for one hope to see this happen:
KeSPA is dissolved and replaced by a neutral entity that has no one from the Corporate sponsors. The Commissioner is voted on by neutral third party arbitration. The owners of the Corporate teams can appeal decisions, but have no direct say in the every day operations of the league. However, if a majority is reached by the owners they can force a neutral arbitration on any rules or rulings sent down from the governing body. The body's main job would to hold Pro-Gamer rankings, develop the game for a greater audience, and make sure that no one becomes the NY Yankees and buys out all the good players. (While there would be other jobs, they would be ancillary; for example, Drafts, Contract arbitrations, etc.)
Get rid of the stupid licensing system. Use a more baseball oriented approach. Anyone should be able to become a pro-gamer without having to win Courage, or some other tournament. How many times have you known for someone drafted 858th+ end up making it to the Majors and doing extremely well. A lot.
So, with the new governing body taking a more hands off approach this leaves the tournament organizers and the teams themselves greater autonomy. This allows for a better spectator sport (It's all about the personalities folks). Also, for sanctioned tournaments all it takes is for the Commissioner to approve. I hope to see more than just OSL/MSL/PL. I want sponsors to get more involved (Intel, Coca Cola, etc.) Imagine having a OSL/MSL/PL/GOM/CSL/ISL. Basically I want matches played throughout the year with perhaps a one month slowdown at some point.
We'll see how it turns out though.
Also, I want to see a more military styled approach to their tournament winnings. IE Win OSL and you get a Medal, win PL and you get a Medal, come in say top 3 win % with greater than 25 games played in PL and get a ribbon. I think it looks more professional and "cooler". Imagine NaDa in the finals with 6 Medals and 25 Ribbons looking like a War Hero. Terran War Hero!
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Osaka27179 Posts
On July 28 2009 01:43 G3nXsiS wrote:
Im the original creator of that post and I must say Im suprised it spread to Teamliquid also.
In any case we the foreigners are the ones losing out here. True kespa did alot for starcraft but what did they do to make the game more international? We had to go underground to stream matches live and all these years there was not a single event that had English coverage until the Gom events. Kespa could have easily done it. They could have picked up tasteless and artosis or get some commentators from fansites but they decided not to. And when gomtv finally started broadcasting a tournament with english coverage they banned certain teams from participating in it.
Is this a governing body that we really want in the starcraft community when starcraft 2 comes out? One that prevents starcraft from going international?
Spreading SC was never the kespa mandate. You might as well curse major league baseball for not expanding to africa.
The reason I am defending kespa, although I have pointed out their substantial failures as well, is that most people here have no idea who they are or what they do. They simply see "fuck kespa" and try to get a free post.
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Osaka27179 Posts
Get rid of the stupid licensing system. Use a more baseball oriented approach. Anyone should be able to become a pro-gamer without having to win Courage, or some other tournament. How many times have you known for someone drafted 858th+ end up making it to the Majors and doing extremely well. A lot.
Teams can already give licenses to anyone they want, two times a year. Also, anyone can join the b team. If they show promise there (the minors) they will get the license.
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Something Ive never been clear on that perhaps someone can help with. Legally does Kespa acknowledge that they are using Blizzards intellectual property and the Blizzard has a claim to everything they do with it?
How does international copyright law work
A) for videogames?
B) in Korea?
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Osaka27179 Posts
They don't acknowledge it, but until recently Blizzard didn't care. Now Blizzard is trying to morph into a game developer + media company and run the sc2 scene, which means they realized "hey we should pay attention to you".
Totally my own opinion.
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^ concurred just look at wc3/dota etc. blizzard does not give a fuck about you just as they didn't care about broodwar for the many years its popularity was isolated to korea. they only pay attention to revenue sources, ie WoW or whatever form of pay-based control they'll use for sc2
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I dont have all the facts but from what ive read this is my feeling. Basically, its great for Kespa to promote and organize around the game. They should be commended for doing so. However promoting a Blizzard product and profitting from a Blizzard product are two different things. Blizzard does have a right to "look the otherway" for as long as they want and they also have a right to step in at any point and reclaim their intellectual property.
Now you can say "oh there just doing it for money." And yes that is a driving force behind blizzard's decisons. But its wrong to assume what makes blizzard money and whats best for starcraft are two mutually exclusive concepts.
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Well personally I don't think Blizzard wanting more control on e-sports is necessarily a bad thing. Keep in mind that control doesn't have to be constricting, kinda like how the map editor is "Blizzard-controlled" yet still manages to be full of community creativity and freedom.
It all depends on how Blizzard manages it and what exactly will they operate themselves or allow the community to handle. Obviously Blizzard wants a share of the profit (businesses want money after all), but it might not be so bad if Battle.Net really turns out to be as great as Blizzard wants it to be. Blizzard at the very least seems to be putting a lot more effort into the SC2 esports scene than the ones for WoW, DotA, and the like.
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On July 28 2009 09:01 Spawkuring wrote:
Well personally I don't think Blizzard wanting more control on e-sports is necessarily a bad thing. Keep in mind that control doesn't have to be constricting, kinda like how the map editor is "Blizzard-controlled" yet still manages to be full of community creativity and freedom.
It all depends on how Blizzard manages it and what exactly will they operate themselves or allow the community to handle. Obviously Blizzard wants a share of the profit (businesses want money after all), but it might not be so bad if Battle.Net really turns out to be as great as Blizzard wants it to be. Blizzard at the very least seems to be putting a lot more effort into the SC2 esports scene than the ones for WoW, DotA, and the like.
I hope Blizzard gets more involved in the sponsoring and promotion aspect. Collect your royalties, and sponsor tournaments (Imagine a Blizzard Starleague o.O), but let the community run the actual Proleagues, Individual Leagues, etc. Support GOM, market internationally, and help start up an American Proleague is all I ask for, nothing more.
Hopefully Blizzard and its affiliates can get with channels like G4TV, ESPN, Spike, MTV, to broadcast tournaments. Once corporations see how much interest there is in SC2, all you need is someone like Super Daniel Man to drive it home to them how cost-effective the marketing would be to a young to mid-age demographic. So, market to corporations and companies that try to target those demographics like a Best Buy, Verizon, Intel / Microsoft, Target, Pepsi, etc. For these guys a few million + a year to get to hundreds of thousands / millions of people around the world is a pittance. I hope Super Daniel Man follows through on what he said he wants to do and hopefully comes to America and tries to set up a Proleague here.
Ah, Imagine having Proleague broadcasted on ESPN 2, and Individual Leagues on G4TV. Only problem would be where to setup the actual Proleague because you can't have teams all around the country it would be monetarily infeasible for such an upstart business venture (and cuts into practice time way too much). I would say....either Southern California, New York, or Chicago.
Ah, one can dream I suppose. It is possible because MLG is immensely popular and many Halo 3 pros get paid 100,000$+ all ready and its broadcasted on ESPN.
Edit: I really, really, really want to see (If this ever comes to fruition) the American Proleague champion vs the Korean Proleague champion. Of course me being biased would say Americans
4-3 first set and losing second set 4-3, but winning the Ace match to take the world Championship. 
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What power does KeSPA really have and how did they get it? Why does anyone listen to them or sign their contracts?
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On July 27 2009 09:44 Kennigit wrote:
Yes this is true. Has to do with blizzard/kespa politics and ESPORTS drama. I was hoping Paul Sams would jump on stage and slice the KESPA president's chest open with Frostmourne.
frostmourne HUNGERS
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I can't understand how OGN, MBC and KeSPA can possibly own teams and not have a conflict of interest ...
To me KeSPA isn't looking out for e-sports but are just looking out for themselves (like that they wouldn't BC Starcraft2)
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On July 28 2009 09:17 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2009 09:01 Spawkuring wrote:
Well personally I don't think Blizzard wanting more control on e-sports is necessarily a bad thing. Keep in mind that control doesn't have to be constricting, kinda like how the map editor is "Blizzard-controlled" yet still manages to be full of community creativity and freedom.
It all depends on how Blizzard manages it and what exactly will they operate themselves or allow the community to handle. Obviously Blizzard wants a share of the profit (businesses want money after all), but it might not be so bad if Battle.Net really turns out to be as great as Blizzard wants it to be. Blizzard at the very least seems to be putting a lot more effort into the SC2 esports scene than the ones for WoW, DotA, and the like. I hope Blizzard gets more involved in the sponsoring and promotion aspect. Collect your royalties, and sponsor tournaments (Imagine a Blizzard Starleague o.O), but let the community run the actual Proleagues, Individual Leagues, etc. Support GOM, market internationally, and help start up an American Proleague is all I ask for, nothing more. Hopefully Blizzard and its affiliates can get with channels like G4TV, ESPN, Spike, MTV, to broadcast tournaments. Once corporations see how much interest there is in SC2, all you need is someone like Super Daniel Man to drive it home to them how cost-effective the marketing would be to a young to mid-age demographic. So, market to corporations and companies that try to target those demographics like a Best Buy, Verizon, Intel / Microsoft, Target, Pepsi, etc. For these guys a few million + a year to get to hundreds of thousands / millions of people around the world is a pittance. I hope Super Daniel Man follows through on what he said he wants to do and hopefully comes to America and tries to set up a Proleague here. Ah, Imagine having Proleague broadcasted on ESPN 2, and Individual Leagues on G4TV. Only problem would be where to setup the actual Proleague because you can't have teams all around the country it would be monetarily infeasible for such an upstart business venture (and cuts into practice time way too much). I would say....either Southern California, New York, or Chicago. Ah, one can dream I suppose. It is possible because MLG is immensely popular and many Halo 3 pros get paid 100,000$+ all ready and its broadcasted on ESPN. Edit: I really, really, really want to see (If this ever comes to fruition) the American Proleague champion vs the Korean Proleague champion. Of course me being biased would say Americans 4-3 first set and losing second set 4-3, but winning the Ace match to take the world Championship.
Hell, blizzard has enough money that they could start their own tv station from the ground up if they really wanted to promote esports and no existing channel was taking the bait. The one thing KeSPA does/did really well was give the game a real sense of professionalism. People who aren't already fans are more likely to give it a chance if it's treated like a legitimate event with suit-clad coaches and commentators and name-brand companies sponsoring things. No one who is only slightly inclined to watch pros play halo is going to tune in to some over-wrought x-games for fat kids that passes for the way progaming is presented in the US. I just hope that if blizzard is trying to give the esports pitch to anyone they're showing clips of OSL and not MLG...
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Blizzard is obviously going to broadcast Starcraft, and likely for free. Blizzard is using its experience in WoW to create not just an e-Sports scene, but an entire culture based around Starcraft II. Over the years, we have seen Blizzard take more and more control over where people play their games (most people play SC on iccup vs bnet, but in wc3, most people play on bnet over ggc, while in WoW almost everyone plays on Blizzard's servers).
Look for Starcraft broadcasting as a more intensified version of warcraft broadcasting (where people can observe LIVE at games including upgrades, units being build, food, items, everything).
This would totally cripple KeSPA's power in sanctioning LAN-based tournaments so KeSPA is trying to be as bitchy as possible before they are rendered obsolete by free broadcasting)
That being said, there are things which KeSPA is useful for. For example, pausing a game. In warcraft 3, spell timings are extremely important, and many players on battlenet abuse pause/unpause to gain an unfair advantage (Blademaster, a DPS unit is a attacking Shadow Hunter, a spell-based unit. Pause/unpause renders it impossible for a player to hit the hotkey for a spell and click on a moving blademaster). It is very unlikely that blizzard will govern these offenses, so I expect tournament organizers to have common sense and provide competent referees in case of abuse.
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Blizzard need to be VERY careful here, as said above, the American approach to esports is terrible, proffesionalism and readability is key, though I can imgine the mainstream are more concerned about charismatic players than the game itself :p
Leaving behind the current fans with the revolving door policy they have in WoW is one of my big worries if they don't change.
Agreeing with Zepellin Blizz have the money to make almost anything happen, and if they want the world to change they are going to have to sink a shareholder-worrying amount into it.
Ofcourse it will pay back 10 times in the long run if it works, I hope the cash-cow of WoW is letting them take bigger risks...
@peidongyang : imo ranked games should not have pausing. Leave it to the ums (or have an option at game creation)
I'm not going to comment much on the KeSPA/Blizzard relationship until more solid info comes out, I can't imagine either side being very happy right now...If blizz could get KeSPA on their side it would be a great spring board into legitimacy.
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On July 28 2009 08:28 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2009 01:43 G3nXsiS wrote:
Im the original creator of that post and I must say Im suprised it spread to Teamliquid also.
In any case we the foreigners are the ones losing out here. True kespa did alot for starcraft but what did they do to make the game more international? We had to go underground to stream matches live and all these years there was not a single event that had English coverage until the Gom events. Kespa could have easily done it. They could have picked up tasteless and artosis or get some commentators from fansites but they decided not to. And when gomtv finally started broadcasting a tournament with english coverage they banned certain teams from participating in it.
Is this a governing body that we really want in the starcraft community when starcraft 2 comes out? One that prevents starcraft from going international? Spreading SC was never the kespa mandate. You might as well curse major league baseball for not expanding to africa. The reason I am defending kespa, although I have pointed out their substantial failures as well, is that most people here have no idea who they are or what they do. They simply see "fuck kespa" and try to get a free post.
Look man, all kespa does is organize and host tournaments. They hire the commentators/stupid referees and booth girls, set up the equipment, sell the tickets, and gather money from TV stations and sponsers. That's all they do. Granted, they do a better job than Blizzard at hosting events, but that doesn't really say much.
Now Kespa has become complacent. They found a system that makes money for them and saturated the Korean sc market and they did it all without having to pay Blizzard anything, and now they just want to sit back and let the money roll in.
However, if kespa is going to bitch and moan when Blizzard comes out with a new game and tries to make a profit from it, then guess what? Blizzard is going to either host the thing themselves or find another organization that can. Organizing events isn't rocket science and kespa isn't some magical organization that can only make it happen, even GOM has proved that it can be done easily and profitably. If you don't think that replacing kespa with an organization that isn't clinging on to its premade system while fighting back change like it's the end of the world, then screw you. We all know that kespa is afraid of change and complacent, and if we want E-sports and starcraft to move on and grow, then we can't have this organization holding us back.
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EPT
