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United States20661 Posts
I’ve been meaning to get around to this but work/family affairs have kept me busy. Since we're not reporting the press event today, I'll write this instead. Of the games I played against the devs, two stood out. I detailed my loss to Karune in a previous report – I’ll outline the other game, a strategic win against another employee, below.
I apologize for my poor recollection of map names. It was on a four-player twilight map, sort of Python-ish, except instead of corner islands there were backdoor routes, hidden by tall grass and blocked off by destructible rocks, connecting the right/bottom and top/left bases. The general map topography is irrelevant, save the in-base foliage.
This, too, was a PvP. For some reason, most of the dev games ended up being Protoss mirror, with the occasional Zerg or Terran. I warped in the 2-o’clock, while my opponent took 6. I pylon-scouted, while he gateway-scouted. Still undivided about obelisk-first or second pylon first, I opted for the smooth supply route, planting my second pylon in-base to prevent manner pylons.
He had erected his initial pylon in an intelligent position: it allowed for two gates to make a zealot-blockable but immortal-passable wall, while also being close enough to his mineral line for ideal obelisk placement. Along with the ramp, this provided a nearly unassailable frontal position to defend his economic gains as he went obelisk before 2nd pylon.
My early scout saw all of this before his zealot came out; I pretended to head out but hid my probe behind his grass. My decision here was based on this knowledge: slower obelisk meant slower zealots, meaning earlier harass would be more effective. Also, since I had seen him place his second pylon near his minerals, his third pylon might be put in support of his forward two gateways to prevent power loss from an early rush, thus lessening the chance of it being used as a scout pylon behind the grass. Finally, his choice of obelisk as well as gas, despite his two-gate build, meant that his overall zealot count would not match mine.
His slow scout saw my two gateways and delayed obelisk before my initial zealot slew it. My opponent responded accordingly, withdrawing his zealots before my initial foray. However, he failed to notice my third pylon in his base; he missed the following proxy gateway as well. As his probe died early and my zealot blockade prevented any further reconnaissance on his part, he could not know that my third pylon was not in my base. He thought it was a 2-gateway probe-cutting rush, and defended as such.
While trading hits with his zealots and gateway wall at his ramp, I produced one, then two zealots at my proxy location. I sent them in while committing to a forward assault as well. His shield-battery assisted probes fell en masse before the covert zealots as he struggled to hold at the ramp. Though his first stalkers came in, it was too little, too late, and he tapped out soon after. Quite simply, my calculated risk paid off in the form of a relatively straightforward win.
This was not a particularly inventive or skillful build on my part, but I feel this game shows some possibility as to how all-ins will evolve in the sequel. Early build divergence – also possible in other races with the complex add-on system and queen mechanics – mean that there will be more opportunity for quick strategic play. Also, manipulation of neutral buildings and map mechanics may see more play. One issue I must note here is that I do not believe pylon-jumping works any more, as I did attempt to pylon-hop a set of rocks to build a gateway on the other side (just to see if I could) several times to no avail. Might have been my own poor ability, however. Would require further testing.
Overall, however, I see many more options for build innovation, and a corresponding emphasis on the enhanced importance of scouting. Careful placement of buildings and overlords will not just be seen at the highest levels, but will also permeate the average player scene. With thousands of players challenging the new game’s boundaries, we will hopefully see inspirational builds as well as optimized ones; I remain optimistic that Blizzard’s set foundations for SC2 will allow for this.
Despite the perceived failure of Science, I look forward to the beta. SC Heritage will tide me over in the meantime. Go Kong.
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I enjoy reading the write ups, thanks.
Too bad no videos tho ;p
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Osaka27149 Posts
Great job. It is nice to read about the thinking that went into the builds. I guess the dev needs to play some more iccup to scout for proxy gates ><
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Yeah, thanks for the writeup.
It does seem that since the worker pulls are stronger the all-in builds will have later timings like you showed. Should be interesting how it turns out though. We shall see.
Now if the Beta would only come out....
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great.
i hope 5 pools and bbs strats will be easier to scout/ defend then in sc.
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Thanks for the writeup LR, boosting my confidence in SC2 
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Awesome writeup LR.... please keep us posted! ^o^
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United States20661 Posts
I don't have any more games I think would be interesting to talk about 
They were just boring mass-unit wins on my part.
Though I'll try to answer any specific queries if I'm able.
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On July 21 2009 09:05 Last Romantic wrote:I don't have any more games I think would be interesting to talk about They were just boring mass-unit wins on my part. Though I'll try to answer any specific queries if I'm able.
nothing is boring about mass storm~!
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On Juun 29 2009 16:16 Last Romantic wrote:
Congratulations to me for defeating him in sub-5 minute rush game on wide ramps.
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On July 21 2009 07:32 Last Romantic wrote:
Despite the perceived failure of Science, I look forward to the beta. SC Heritage will tide me over in the meantime. Go Kong.
Anychance, you got some info on a eta of beta?
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On July 21 2009 09:09 Trezeguet23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 09:05 Last Romantic wrote:I don't have any more games I think would be interesting to talk about They were just boring mass-unit wins on my part. Though I'll try to answer any specific queries if I'm able. nothing is boring about mass storm~!
I've always wondered, why do some people use a tilde character at the end of their sentences?
Edit: this is what I got from Wikipedia.
When used in conversations via email or instant messenger it may be used as a sarcasm mark[citation needed]
However I did not find the sentence sarcastic (or maybe you do find storm boring?)
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Can you tell us about the range on the obelisks? Could I hit PC on both my main and nat from one obelisk? Can a Obelisk on your min line cast shield at the front of your base?
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woot glad sc2 is not going to be a cookie cutter game
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On July 21 2009 10:24 Shade692003 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 09:09 Trezeguet23 wrote:On July 21 2009 09:05 Last Romantic wrote:I don't have any more games I think would be interesting to talk about They were just boring mass-unit wins on my part. Though I'll try to answer any specific queries if I'm able. nothing is boring about mass storm~! I've always wondered, why do some people use a tilde character at the end of their sentences? Edit: this is what I got from Wikipedia.
When used in conversations via email or instant messenger it may be used as a sarcasm mark[citation needed] However I did not find the sentence sarcastic (or maybe you do find storm boring?)
I bumped it when I hit the ! key.
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I'm pretty sure the tilde is used for emphasis and drawn out pronunciation of the last syllable of the word in question. See: Korean commentator's GG~
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United States20661 Posts
No idea on beta. I was convinced of the Kennigit Institute of Advanced Beta Release Studies findings, and as surprised as the rest of you when they turned out to be false.
Obelisk range is very short - like maybe a little more than shield battery. The area of effect is quite large - can hit all of the mineral probes without much aiming required. However, one obelisk per base will be necessary. (Even if the range were greater, you'd run out of mana anyway).
~~~~~~ I find tildes a constant poor habit in my typing D:
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On July 21 2009 10:24 Shade692003 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 09:09 Trezeguet23 wrote:On July 21 2009 09:05 Last Romantic wrote:I don't have any more games I think would be interesting to talk about They were just boring mass-unit wins on my part. Though I'll try to answer any specific queries if I'm able. nothing is boring about mass storm~! I've always wondered, why do some people use a tilde character at the end of their sentences? Edit: this is what I got from Wikipedia.
When used in conversations via email or instant messenger it may be used as a sarcasm mark[citation needed] However I did not find the sentence sarcastic (or maybe you do find storm boring?)
this is especially the opposite of true in korea, where it can be used to express some sort of happiness or cuteness. and i've never heard of ~ being used to express sarcasm in america, actually... maybe i should stop using it there.
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got a question : say you put a pylon on a low ground, but next to a cliff.. can u morph the units to the top of the cliff from the bottom
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On July 21 2009 07:32 Last Romantic wrote:
(...)
Despite the perceived failure of Science, I look forward to the beta. SC Heritage will tide me over in the meantime. Go Kong.
Ouch, that hurts
Nice report, even though i'm one of pro-SC2 guys i didn't realise that this game would have such a strategical depth in short games. Just sweet!
P.S. Great~~~~ :D
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Haha, it looks like proclamations of protoss proxying stupidity will not be over once SC2 comes out.
Nice report!
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On July 21 2009 12:25 pieisamazing wrote:
I'm pretty sure the tilde is used for emphasis and drawn out pronunciation of the last syllable of the word in question. See: Korean commentator's GG~
to me ~ replaces ~.~ or ~_~ and indicates cute, confused, an acknowledgement of an awkward or silly situation
eg
GG~.~ or GG~ might follow a rush, or be used when a player has obviously choked or done something silly
hi~ would be a greeting used following a silly or awkward game
it's similar to -_- or -.- or even T_t and visually represents a narrowing and rolling of eyes, or a slightly dazed expression
hth (yes i made all this up)
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Regarding pylon-jumping; there's just no reason for why it should work so I hope too many weren't expecting that. I at least never saw it as a feature in SC.
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Really nice writeup, with obelisk and all it seems early game has a bit more variation.
Also regarding ~ I always thought it was just prolonging the last letter or partially the word.
(ex. storm~ as in stormmm or stooormm) could be just me though.
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i know in dictionaries ~ replaces the entry word when demonstrating use of it or alternate word forms to save space. also thanks for the br.
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yay sc2 cheese! it's like epic future cheese...like cheese with lasers...ya
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Any unit that kills another unit: cheese.
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On July 21 2009 20:50 ParasitJonte wrote:
Regarding pylon-jumping; there's just no reason for why it should work so I hope too many weren't expecting that. I at least never saw it as a feature in SC.
watched the first battlereport.. and say someone builds a expo on a high ground with no entrance, early game u have to way to get up and take it out.. with pylon jumping from low to high ground.. u could easily just get up there and do some harassing.
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Pylon jumping is so exploit.. I like muta stacking but that really shouldn't be in the game, it's like having a pawn take pieces straight ahead in chess -_-
Also I think most people just accidentally ~ when holding shift to make punctuation, and it's right next to enter, too easy to hit ;~)
lol at the cheese definition. Too true with the newbies, having trouble getting half my friends to play for fear for zerglings...
Thanks again for the nice reports, even though it described a pretty straightforward game it felt almost as if we are there :3 I'll chime in with... gief beta.
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On July 21 2009 20:50 ParasitJonte wrote:
Regarding pylon-jumping; there's just no reason for why it should work so I hope too many weren't expecting that. I at least never saw it as a feature in SC.
It is not a feature, it is an accidental finding as a result of many games played throughout the years.. like muta stacking, patrol micro and all the other small tricks that have been discovered. It is a part of the game now, for better or worse. No reason to not have it in SC2.
If there is a trick that is completely imbalanced and ruins the game, it will be banned in league and tournament play and most likely be fixed eventually (see ground unit stacking in SCBW)
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sorry if i confused some people.. im not talking about jumping with the pylon.. i was talking about morph units in thru a pylon.. but sending them to a highground from a pylon on the low ground
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On July 22 2009 10:43 meathook wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 20:50 ParasitJonte wrote:
Regarding pylon-jumping; there's just no reason for why it should work so I hope too many weren't expecting that. I at least never saw it as a feature in SC. It is not a feature, it is an accidental finding as a result of many games played throughout the years.. like muta stacking, patrol micro and all the other small tricks that have been discovered. It is a part of the game now, for better or worse. No reason to not have it in SC2. If there is a trick that is completely imbalanced and ruins the game, it will be banned in league and tournament play and most likely be fixed eventually (see ground unit stacking in SCBW)
That's not really a good motivation: "It's in the first game so it should be included in the second game". Looking from the developers perspective, there's no reason why they should try to make a flawed physics engine just to incorporate a glitch that was present in the first game. It would probably be pretty hard and time consuming (relatively speaking) to get the desired effect as well. And that's why I suspect they haven't and they won't include it.
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United States20661 Posts
Regarding pylon-jumping, perhaps the function itself is not absolutely necessary.
However, in terms of game balance, some form of worker scouting - pylon/depot/minjumping in SC1 - needs to be duplicated in SC2. On island maps, to not have that would be to give Zerg an absurd scouting advantage. See Monty Hall, Plasma, Arkanoid, etc.
So in view of that, some form of worker glitching is necessary for us to have viable islands.
Regarding other bugs, such as muta-stacking, to not have it saddens me. What with marines being ever-so-strong, not requiring a range upgrade and adding a health upgrade to boot, weakened muta approach uselessness. But I digress.
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Every "bug" "Exploit" or whatever you want to call it in starcraft 1 should be incorporated into starcraft two. Excluding drone/templar float, drone stack attacking, and a few other extreme game changing glitches. Pylon jump is required on maps like outsider, and also mineral mining to get units throw things add an extra gameplay element that adds so much to the spectator sport of starcraft. Crowds love it.
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On July 25 2009 05:53 Phayze wrote:
Every "bug" "Exploit" or whatever you want to call it in starcraft 1 should be incorporated into starcraft two. Excluding drone/templar float, drone stack attacking, and a few other extreme game changing glitches. Pylon jump is required on maps like outsider, and also mineral mining to get units throw things add an extra gameplay element that adds so much to the spectator sport of starcraft. Crowds love it.
Or. You know. We could just wait for new maps for a new game that will probably require use of the new glitches that will be just as popular.
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EPT
