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I hope we get an equivalent of HLTV/WaaaghTV.
As for the new map features, I really hope those things will be implemented as standard tools in Map Editor. I know some of these can already be done in WC3's editor, but I honestly could care less about them if you have to resort to Troy-like gimmicky tricks in order to make them work. ;/
Why can't they simply start gradually implementing the more interesting features suggested by the community after the launch of beta? ;; It's not like they have to balance anything, and making some textures/models look up to par shouldn't be too time consuming, seeing as most of the modeling, etc. is more or less finished.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On April 16 2009 11:10 OmgIRok wrote:
I feel #2's answer COMPLETELY does not relate to the question at all. I don't see the answer to the question "clearly presented me with the problem of being forced to deal with the consequences of certain types of harass or assault while I saw them coming a mile away"
Yeah my question got dodged :D. Guess its a bit to game technical for the person anwering it.
Great that they are doing this kind of thing though regardless and most of the questions were really good and the answers really satisfying. Good stuff!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 16 2009 23:43 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 11:10 OmgIRok wrote:
I feel #2's answer COMPLETELY does not relate to the question at all. I don't see the answer to the question "clearly presented me with the problem of being forced to deal with the consequences of certain types of harass or assault while I saw them coming a mile away" Yeah my question got dodged :D. Guess its a bit to game technical for the person anwering it. Great that they are doing this kind of thing though regardless and most of the questions were really good and the answers really satisfying. Good stuff!
Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc".
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On April 17 2009 00:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc".
^ this. Since you'll have more mobility yourself, you can squash any drop attempt if you see it coming since you'll be fully prepared for it.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On April 17 2009 01:10 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc". ^ this. Since you'll have more mobility yourself, you can squash any drop attempt if you see it coming since you'll be fully prepared for it.
Which is terrible since youll still have to fully commit against it, theres no easy to beat a drop or phaseprism option such as scourges or that fast 1 wraith or some golliaths.
That drop WILL unload unless you are heavily invested in flyers. Even then with a flew flyers you cant stop that phaseprism from just setting up and warping in anyway. I'm still heavily hoping for some scourgelike unit or ability that will alow Z to deal easier with it, plus smartcasting and a Tier2 Ghost I was hoping they would still have lockdown do deal with these kind of threats. P I'm a bit at a loss at, esp since corsairs also disappeared.
Plus try playing SC1 as Z without scourges and try to kill an observer to increase the effectiveness of your lurkers and stop a P dead in his tracks or to kill sciencevessels in ZvT without plague and scourges anymore. Good luck.
Warp-in is like a tier 2 Recall not even to mention a quick fix to stop those overlords/overseeers to start those nydus worms in your base. Unless you have a large amount of units in your base at all times and even then you WILL get warped, wormed, dropped. When playing TvP in SC2 you cant just go straight pure metal due to costs and unit inefficiency compared to SC1. Marine marauder ghost was a really good way to open up and add metal support/switch in mid/lategame. Especially with the slowgrenades and the marine upgrades (shield and you start with increased range already compared to SC1). Except that when they just sit 2 phaseprisms over highground at either side of your base (think reaver drop speed/timing gamemoment wise) there is nothing you can do to stop those units from warping in except by making a starport and getting some Vikings which is totally out of the way of anything you wanted to do and is for the rest useless against P untill they come out with the lategame warpprisms and carriers.
Its detracting from positive and smoothe gameflow and forces too easily that you have to leave a chunk at home to deal with the warped in units or to build (at that point in the game) useless building/units to deal with it breaking your gameflow, builds, etc.
Plus as a Zerg having to deal with observers, nighthawks, medivacs, phaseprisms, carriers (with even longer range!), warpprisms... just... t_t. The scourge is just a too essential unit in my opinion to counter these things. I'm hoping the Queen will provide a good harass counter with its spells and mobility but that still leaves you with no good and easy way except for a pricy investment in mutas or corruptors (which I hope they pumped up 200% cause they sucked so hard they were useless due to no ground attack at all and corruption being way way way to weak, no antiground attacks working and nonpermanent corruption... just weaken the effect and make the corrupted units permanent no lame broodling in SC1 effect)
There needs to be a fast and (cost) effective way of dealing with these kind of theats when you see them comming. Scourges, lockdown, EMP (against recall in SC1), fast 1 wraith (wont stop a warpin though), some ranged golliaths have all been excellent solutions, albeit a bit impractical in the case of lockdown cost/tech and nonsmartcasting wise, to stop harass. I feel a sore hole in SC2 to cover this.
This is an issue that just grinds my gears. I hope I get a shot at the Beta so I can voice an educated opinion on these issues and provide some suggestions and critique.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
lol wow that turned out long gg me.
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On April 17 2009 00:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 23:43 Nyovne wrote:On April 16 2009 11:10 OmgIRok wrote:
I feel #2's answer COMPLETELY does not relate to the question at all. I don't see the answer to the question "clearly presented me with the problem of being forced to deal with the consequences of certain types of harass or assault while I saw them coming a mile away" Yeah my question got dodged :D. Guess its a bit to game technical for the person anwering it. Great that they are doing this kind of thing though regardless and most of the questions were really good and the answers really satisfying. Good stuff! Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc".
Well really I think Nyvone's question was on the point that you couldn't stop the drop even had you scouted it if you had no units available to stop it. It wouldn't exactly be practical to build static defense everywhere, would it? The entire point of the question, I think, was to make units that could stop it immediately.
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I don't think Nyovne's question was dodged at all, I think it was well answered. They said they wanna make up the lack of scourges with more scouting and mobility. And I don't understand why do you think that cannot be balanced.
Its detracting from positive and smoothe gameflow and forces too easily that you have to leave a chunk at home to deal with the warped in units or to build (at that point in the game) useless building/units to deal with it breaking your gameflow, builds, etc
Plus as a Zerg having to deal with observers, nighthawks, medivacs, phaseprisms, carriers (with even longer range!), warpprisms... just... t_t. The scourge is just a too essential unit in my opinion to counter these things. How can you know such things? We don't know how good our alternative anti air are gonna be. It's all a matter of how the balancing goes, numbers will change a lot, we're not even on beta yet. As you said it yourself "they pumped the damage of the corrupter by 200% because it sucked", how can you know they won't become half decent snipers after release? 3 or 4 Hydras was killing nighthawks absurdly fast on that battle report. Plus we can MOVE our spore colonies now.
I don't see anything wrong with their idea of toning down drop sniping. It just a matter of balancing the numbers. I honestly think scourges should have changed one way or the other, while I do think it's fun as hell to watch them in action. I must admit, that are many strategies that could be fun but are never used against zergs because scourges hard counters it so bad. If nerfing our anti-air ends up producing more strategy variety overall than I am all for it.
edit: btw I just reminded of a game not so long ago that the terran made a valk tvz, and whoever was commenting said something like "this might actually be a good strategy, valks are good for this and that, this could open a whole new branch of strategies for tvz and it... oh nvm they got scourged..." That's what I think about scourges... 
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I think that was Boxer vs Baxter on Colosseum, commentated by Tasteless.
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Yeah number 10 is amazing. Being able to FPVOD games with a simple replay will be *such* a useful tool for players who seek to teach others how to play effectively.
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Q: Can you do a re-make of Hunters?
That map is THE OLDEST map that is heavily used till this day, followed by LT right? anyway Hunters is the bomb XD
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The part of the answer to #2 that I didn't like was that it didn't seem to address what I thought was the most important premise of the original question, which is:
"I have played [a version] of SC2 and when I played it I was unable to stop the aforementioned harassment attacks despite knowing that they were coming well ahead of time, how are you planning to address this"?
I guess I was hoping for some acknowledgment that it was in fact a problem at one point (or still is and they are working on fixing it) or an explanation on why they don't think it is a problem or maybe some specific examples on how exactly you would counter some of the attacks mentioned in such a way that would leave you ahead, since ultimately that is what a failed harass should do, it should leave the successful defender in an advantageous position proportional to the amount or resources spent by the attacker trying to get his harass off.
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regarding #2 and zerg needing something to snipe air units:
Toying with the idea of zerg (maybe the queen?) having the ensnare ability, but on top of slowing units down it also binds them together so that they cannot run far from each other or spread out. That might help slow down scouted and incoming drops, so that hydras can go mop up.
Might be a bad idea tho, i haven't really considered how it tips the delicate scale of balance.
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On April 17 2009 02:10 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2009 01:10 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc". ^ this. Since you'll have more mobility yourself, you can squash any drop attempt if you see it coming since you'll be fully prepared for it. Which is terrible since youll still have to fully commit against it, theres no easy to beat a drop or phaseprism option such as scourges or that fast 1 wraith or some golliaths. That drop WILL unload unless you are heavily invested in flyers. Even then with a flew flyers you cant stop that phaseprism from just setting up and warping in anyway. I'm still heavily hoping for some scourgelike unit or ability that will alow Z to deal easier with it, plus smartcasting and a Tier2 Ghost I was hoping they would still have lockdown do deal with these kind of threats. P I'm a bit at a loss at, esp since corsairs also disappeared. Plus try playing SC1 as Z without scourges and try to kill an observer to increase the effectiveness of your lurkers and stop a P dead in his tracks or to kill sciencevessels in ZvT without plague and scourges anymore. Good luck. Warp-in is like a tier 2 Recall not even to mention a quick fix to stop those overlords/overseeers to start those nydus worms in your base. Unless you have a large amount of units in your base at all times and even then you WILL get warped, wormed, dropped. When playing TvP in SC2 you cant just go straight pure metal due to costs and unit inefficiency compared to SC1. Marine marauder ghost was a really good way to open up and add metal support/switch in mid/lategame. Especially with the slowgrenades and the marine upgrades (shield and you start with increased range already compared to SC1). Except that when they just sit 2 phaseprisms over highground at either side of your base (think reaver drop speed/timing gamemoment wise) there is nothing you can do to stop those units from warping in except by making a starport and getting some Vikings which is totally out of the way of anything you wanted to do and is for the rest useless against P untill they come out with the lategame warpprisms and carriers. Its detracting from positive and smoothe gameflow and forces too easily that you have to leave a chunk at home to deal with the warped in units or to build (at that point in the game) useless building/units to deal with it breaking your gameflow, builds, etc. Plus as a Zerg having to deal with observers, nighthawks, medivacs, phaseprisms, carriers (with even longer range!), warpprisms... just... t_t. The scourge is just a too essential unit in my opinion to counter these things. I'm hoping the Queen will provide a good harass counter with its spells and mobility but that still leaves you with no good and easy way except for a pricy investment in mutas or corruptors (which I hope they pumped up 200% cause they sucked so hard they were useless due to no ground attack at all and corruption being way way way to weak, no antiground attacks working and nonpermanent corruption... just weaken the effect and make the corrupted units permanent no lame broodling in SC1 effect) There needs to be a fast and (cost) effective way of dealing with these kind of theats when you see them comming. Scourges, lockdown, EMP (against recall in SC1), fast 1 wraith (wont stop a warpin though), some ranged golliaths have all been excellent solutions, albeit a bit impractical in the case of lockdown cost/tech and nonsmartcasting wise, to stop harass. I feel a sore hole in SC2 to cover this. This is an issue that just grinds my gears. I hope I get a shot at the Beta so I can voice an educated opinion on these issues and provide some suggestions and critique.
All of this is pure speculation. You dont know the game, the macro, the units, thus you cant say how easy or how hard it will be to beat e.g. a prism drop.
It grinds my eyes to see that you think you can conclude so much, based on mere speculations.
Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe the game will mainly play around the extreme mobility, which in turn will give very fast pased games and require even more multitasking, because "normal sc1'esque" herassment will also be viable.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On April 17 2009 21:05 Ota Solgryn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 02:10 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2009 01:10 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 00:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Ehh, aren't they basically saying "Yes, wou will have to deal with the consequences - HOWEVER! You'll have more time to prepare for said consequences with the new scouting etc". ^ this. Since you'll have more mobility yourself, you can squash any drop attempt if you see it coming since you'll be fully prepared for it. Which is terrible since youll still have to fully commit against it, theres no easy to beat a drop or phaseprism option such as scourges or that fast 1 wraith or some golliaths. That drop WILL unload unless you are heavily invested in flyers. Even then with a flew flyers you cant stop that phaseprism from just setting up and warping in anyway. I'm still heavily hoping for some scourgelike unit or ability that will alow Z to deal easier with it, plus smartcasting and a Tier2 Ghost I was hoping they would still have lockdown do deal with these kind of threats. P I'm a bit at a loss at, esp since corsairs also disappeared. Plus try playing SC1 as Z without scourges and try to kill an observer to increase the effectiveness of your lurkers and stop a P dead in his tracks or to kill sciencevessels in ZvT without plague and scourges anymore. Good luck. Warp-in is like a tier 2 Recall not even to mention a quick fix to stop those overlords/overseeers to start those nydus worms in your base. Unless you have a large amount of units in your base at all times and even then you WILL get warped, wormed, dropped. When playing TvP in SC2 you cant just go straight pure metal due to costs and unit inefficiency compared to SC1. Marine marauder ghost was a really good way to open up and add metal support/switch in mid/lategame. Especially with the slowgrenades and the marine upgrades (shield and you start with increased range already compared to SC1). Except that when they just sit 2 phaseprisms over highground at either side of your base (think reaver drop speed/timing gamemoment wise) there is nothing you can do to stop those units from warping in except by making a starport and getting some Vikings which is totally out of the way of anything you wanted to do and is for the rest useless against P untill they come out with the lategame warpprisms and carriers. Its detracting from positive and smoothe gameflow and forces too easily that you have to leave a chunk at home to deal with the warped in units or to build (at that point in the game) useless building/units to deal with it breaking your gameflow, builds, etc. Plus as a Zerg having to deal with observers, nighthawks, medivacs, phaseprisms, carriers (with even longer range!), warpprisms... just... t_t. The scourge is just a too essential unit in my opinion to counter these things. I'm hoping the Queen will provide a good harass counter with its spells and mobility but that still leaves you with no good and easy way except for a pricy investment in mutas or corruptors (which I hope they pumped up 200% cause they sucked so hard they were useless due to no ground attack at all and corruption being way way way to weak, no antiground attacks working and nonpermanent corruption... just weaken the effect and make the corrupted units permanent no lame broodling in SC1 effect) There needs to be a fast and (cost) effective way of dealing with these kind of theats when you see them comming. Scourges, lockdown, EMP (against recall in SC1), fast 1 wraith (wont stop a warpin though), some ranged golliaths have all been excellent solutions, albeit a bit impractical in the case of lockdown cost/tech and nonsmartcasting wise, to stop harass. I feel a sore hole in SC2 to cover this. This is an issue that just grinds my gears. I hope I get a shot at the Beta so I can voice an educated opinion on these issues and provide some suggestions and critique. All of this is pure speculation. You dont know the game, the macro, the units, thus you cant say how easy or how hard it will be to beat e.g. a prism drop. It grinds my eyes to see that you think you can conclude so much, based on mere speculations. Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe the game will mainly play around the extreme mobility, which in turn will give very fast pased games and require even more multitasking, because "normal sc1'esque" herassment will also be viable.
I base this on give or take 70 games played tyvm, allthough an older build, nothing introduced or changed up to this point that has been made public changed anything concerning the issues I stated and experienced if not made them worse.
And lol @ more multitasking hahahahahha, integrated rally commands, MBS, infinite squadsize and especially the interaction of said implementations. Ahaha oh god more multitasking, try playing the game and then come back to me.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On April 17 2009 14:43 Plethora wrote:
The part of the answer to #2 that I didn't like was that it didn't seem to address what I thought was the most important premise of the original question, which is:
"I have played [a version] of SC2 and when I played it I was unable to stop the aforementioned harassment attacks despite knowing that they were coming well ahead of time, how are you planning to address this"?
I guess I was hoping for some acknowledgment that it was in fact a problem at one point (or still is and they are working on fixing it) or an explanation on why they don't think it is a problem or maybe some specific examples on how exactly you would counter some of the attacks mentioned in such a way that would leave you ahead, since ultimately that is what a failed harass should do, it should leave the successful defender in an advantageous position proportional to the amount or resources spent by the attacker trying to get his harass off.
Thanks for saying in a summier way what I failed to express in my rant.
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Great feedback from Blizzard <3
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sooo can cannons still move? .. its pretty ridged if it can ...
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Not to nitpick, but couldn't the answer about watching reps from a players' perspective mean the we can only do what we can do in War3, where the game automatically centers on units that receive orders once they receive them, allowing you to watch the replay without touching the mouse or keyboard, but getting a vastly different view from what the player saw while playing the game?
Wouldn't have they gone into greater detail of true FPReps were implemented?
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EPT
