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Shadowfury333
Canada314 Posts
On February 01 2009 05:29 Sonu wrote:actually that would be perfect XD but then it would be like C&C How would that be like C&C? The only games I can think of that operated like that were the Homeworld Series and Universe at War (Hierarchy Walkers). For the record, I like the the whole idea. | ||
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Sonu
Canada577 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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djdolber
Sweden85 Posts
TERRAN POWER GOGOGO!! | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On February 01 2009 05:26 InRaged wrote: Archerofaiur, I wanted to try that already and not only that, but no luck :[ That's worth effort in WC3 only with Project Revolution mod but it's dead, apparently, and I'm not even sure it's as easy to tweak as regular UMS. And in SC making buildings produce stuff while uplifted or simply increasing their flying speed requires hacking of starcraft.exe ... I fiddled around with the WC3 editor this morning and it definatly is possible to model it. | ||
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Kwidowmaker
Canada978 Posts
In the context of SCBW: If factories had a repair ability while lifted off then they would be ideal in accompanying a push. While the tank line isn't threatened, they could land and reinforce the push. To those that complain that SC2 is dumbed down: this adds a new unit to manage with different purpose and method. If the barracks' scouting ability were increased while it was floating then it wouldn't quite be set apart from its current role - after all, it is an annoying eye that just floats there in PvT - but it would be the choice for building scouting. If it were able to build outposts (some sort of bunker/turret/bunker-turret-hybrid! that would be like Pardot Kynes' environment-monitoring stations) it would be something that would move around the map and prepare areas for Terran use, and as a bonus, could be used in some sort of a rush. The science facility could be a floating umm... science facility that repairs and recharges science vessels (one at a time, now). Those that scream "Imbalance! Irradiates and EMP too soon!" should remember that this function could not be used as a rush to those little green clouds or the Devil's tsunami of annoyance that blankets my noble warriors; and instead would only be useful after the necessary upgrades were purchased (after that it's pretty awesome though - the dome could depress and the vessel could land there. Very erotic). The engineering bay can upgrade SCVs or something and increase worker management micro! Starports can fly around being a freaking air-aircraft carrier (emphasise the wraith, yo). Benefits don't number very high and are pretty much limited to encouraging wraith usage (and only if it is viable), but heh, the Intrepid is sick and this would be too. Maybe if it recharged energy it would increase the use of stealth. Who knows? Also, the armory should fly over infantry and drop guns (Ak-47s for everyone) and rocket launchers and stuff. This would increase bio in TvP (ignore this, this is stupid). | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
As said previously, buildings shouldn't be able to drop units they produce but simply store them inside, and unload when the building finally lands. The limit of stored units would be subject to balance. Additionally, I think that the buildings capable of lifting off should have an engine-like extention on top of them that can be targeted separately from the core structure (by ranged units), and when killed the building would be unable to float anymore, unless repaired by an SCV. If the engine is destroyed during the flight, the building crashes onto the ground and loses a portion of its HP; if it's above unbuildable ground (be it water, cliff edge or whatever) - it loses all HP. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
Salvage - accessed by building Nomad Facility add-on at the Command Center - Salvage can be used on any building except defensive ones (and except Command Center) - requires SCV (add-ons are built without SCV – salvaged without SCV either) - completes in less than 5 seconds for any structure - costs 30% and returns 130% of the building cost (subject to balance) - reconstructing building after it has been salvaged takes 80% less time (Take your SCV, salvage the Supply Depot, and next time you build it with any other SCV, construction of this single new Supply Depot will be completed in a matter of couple seconds.) + Show Spoiler [Salvage process by InRaged] + ![[image loading]](http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8226/tmbsalvagevp6.jpg) Lift-off mode - buildings float at Brood War speed (faster speed can be accessed by building Nomad Facility add-on at the Command Center) - Factory/Barracks can train units but not spawn them (when the unit is 100% finished it's stored inside the building, the production of the unit next in queue starts; unit storage limit subject to balance); allows to relocate buildings without wasting production time (subject to balance) - Starport can normally produce units - Command Center cannot produce units when lifted at all (SCVs currently queued need to be cancelled before the CC can lift off) - lifted structures have decreased base armor (to enable the enemy to prevent the Terran from relocating structures and/or using their secondary roles) - lifted off structures have secondary roles (inspired by Kwidowmaker) (does not require Nomad Facility): Command Center: can carry up to 5 SCVs Engineering Bay: increases range of friendly units by 1 within a certain radius Barracks: increases healing rate of Medivacs within a certain radius Factory: increases repair rate of SCVs within a certain radius Starport: can produce units normally Enemy players can disable the secondary roles by bringing the structures to the ground (i.e. killing the Lift-off Module). Salvage vs. Lift-off (solely by InRaged) To move just one building using Salvage: 1. Select SCV; 2. Use it to Salvage Building; 3. Select SCV at new location; 4. Rebuild Building. All of them should be performed individually for each building and require player to have screen centered at SCV/Building. To move one or group of the buildings using ability to fly: 1. Salvage add-on; 2. Lift off; 3. Move to new location; 4. Once each building arrived, land it and rebuild add-on. Whether they can be performed for all buildings in the group at once or not depends on the current game situation. Action 4 should be issued individually for each building in the group Add-ons - less space required + Show Spoiler [ New Size by InRaged] + ![[image loading]](http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3295/tmbsizeue5.jpg) Lab: unlocks advanced units at the structure it's connected to; unlocks tech when connected to a proper structure (available at Barracks, Factory and Starport) Reactor: adds an extra prduction queue (available at Barracks, Factory and Starport) Surveillance Station: works like in BW (available at Command Center; unavialable at Planetary Fortress) tech requirements: Barracks with Lab attached Nomad Facility: unlocks Salvage and Faster Floating tech requirements: Engineering Bay + Factory with Lab attached Planetary Fortress (technically a building 'evolution'): adds a defensive turret on top of the CC; makes the CC unable to lift off or attach any add-ons tech requirements: Engineering Bay + Planetary Fortress upgrade at Engineering Bay edit: ** small corrections additional corrections | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Maybenexttime, any reason you don't think lift-off buildings shouldn't incorporate drop pods in some form. Personally, I think giving buildings the ability to store units overlaps with the medivac. Then again one of the issues with drop pods is differentiating it from warp-in. So I can see where you are coming from if thats it. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
The reason for introducing a (limited) storage capacity is to offset the negative aspect of relocation time. Currently, in BW this type of strategies are largely unviable due to having to halt unit production - this is too much of a disadvantage, resulting in building relocation working only on a small scale (proxy Barracks or Factory, floating into the enemy's main with a single building, etc.). If buffed floating speed turns out to solve this problem alone then we can drop being able to produce when lifted altogether. In other words, buildings wouldn't be used to relocate units - they'd just work sort of analogically to Warp-in (newly produced units only, that is). As for Drop Pods, I personally like the idea but think it overlaps with Warp-in too much. On the other hand, this mechanic(s) allow for similar mobility but in a completely unique way, and it fits Terran just as much (and WarHammer fans won't whine  ).What do you think of the secondary roles I suggested? I think the synergy they require (Barracks + Medivacs; Factories + SCVs; E-Bays + Siege Tanks/any sort of ranged units) add to their uniqueness. On the other hand, the Lift-off Module allows the enemy to shut those secondary roles down and unable the buildings to lift off in general. It brings macro to the battlefield, makes it so much more interesting, and yet keeps the whole dynamic balanced. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On February 02 2009 02:31 maybenexttime wrote: On the other hand, the Lift-off Module allows the enemy to shut those secondary roles down and unable the buildings to lift off in general. Your proposal is good but I would perfer if we made it simpler. For instance why do we need the lift-off module? Couldn't I just shoot down the rax? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
The Lift-off Module is there to offset buffed movement speed, unit storage/producing when lifted and secondary roles. Shooting down (several) 1000+ HP building(s) doesn't sound like the best idea. So I decided it's best to go the 'diversity but fragility' way. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On February 02 2009 06:03 maybenexttime wrote: It has tons of HP. The Lift-off Module is there to offset buffed movement speed, unit storage/producing when lifted and secondary roles. Shooting down (several) 1000+ HP building(s) doesn't sound like the best idea. So I decided it's best to go the 'diversity but fragility' way. It has allot of HP but if I kill your barracks thats a huge setback. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Your proposals are quite bold, it would turn the Terran base into a Flotilla. It is interesting and so different I can´t say how that would effect gameplay - what I´d change either way are the needless complications. Nomad Facility? Salvage changes? Secondary roles for Buildings? Liftoff Modules? Do we REALLY need that? You changes show a kaskading nature which you definetly need to look out for. It went a bit like this: Buildings should be usefull in the air -> can produce while flying -> Need "exit storage" -> needs additional incentive to keep in air -> Secondary functionality -> needs additional weakness to be fair -> Liftoff Module | ||
zobz
Canada2175 Posts
The problem is, though, that i'm not sure sc2 really encourages leapfrog like movement in any way, so much that i'm not sure moving your rally forward, at least continuously, would even be beneficial in general. I mean with harassment significantly more viable i assume in any matchup, does slow pushing really work? Now it would be interesting if maps commonly provided blocked off areas where you could defend your mobile infrastructure from a choke point, like it was an expansion, and anyway you could use your buildings as blockades obviously, especially for tanks. But still it might be awkward to have them relatively vulnerable in the middle of the map, always needing some defense. Also, you could salvage your add-ons so that you could rebuild them repeatedly when you needed to land to build tanks. And i think this shouldn't require an upgrade, thus spicing up terran even more, and that you should be able to load up units into any production building the same way you can already load a cc, perhaps any unit into any production building. Imagine the possibilities: you could lift off a command center and a barracks together to an island for extra scv transfer, you could lift a cc loaded with marines instead of scvs for instant basic defense, or you could even proxy a factory midgame, load it with some units and lift it into a dark corner of an enemy base to produce the rest on site and then salvage it when you're done. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
On February 02 2009 07:10 Unentschieden wrote: Archer is right, your solution is needlessly complicated. Simply reduce armor while floating if buildings are to hard to kill. Your proposals are quite bold, it would turn the Terran base into a Flotilla. It is interesting and so different I can´t say how that would effect gameplay - what I´d change either way are the needless complications. Nomad Facility? Salvage changes? Secondary roles for Buildings? Liftoff Modules? Do we REALLY need that? You changes show a kaskading nature which you definetly need to look out for. It went a bit like this: Buildings should be usefull in the air -> can produce while flying -> Need "exit storage" -> needs additional incentive to keep in air -> Secondary functionality -> needs additional weakness to be fair -> Liftoff Module I agree. How about this: - salvage changes subject to change - lift-off module out - Nomad Facility stays - Salvage & Faster Floating are way too useful/strong to be available to the Terran player right away - same as Warp-in or Nydus Network - instead of Lift-off Modules lifted buildings' armor gets a debuff - secondary roles stay (not necessarily for all buildings mentioned, probably just for Barracks/Factory/Starport) - there has to be more of an incentive to bring your production structures to the front | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On February 02 2009 07:52 maybenexttime wrote: If this is true than this idea just sucks ass. Forwarding your production line is a nice simple idea and a few features that make this possible for one race is interesting to me. But floating buildings with buff auras is very lame. If we have to try that hard to make the basis of this idea (a slow pushing production line) actually strategically beneficial then i think we need a new basis.there has to be more of an incentive to bring your production structures to the front | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
And, no, we're not "trying that hard" - I just wanted to add some damn diversity... | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Random idea: Nomad Facility is a seperate, naturally floating building (immeadiately lifts off when build, can´t land) that is responsible for deconstruction/salvaging (I´d especially love if that wasn´t limited to OWN buildings). That would also justify more than just one. The advantage of bringing production structures to the front are faster reinforcements. If anything Tech Buildings would need a incentive to be at the front. If anything give secondary effects to Tech buildings, might even be a incentive to build more than just one of each. But overall I´m not to insistant on having the Terrans move their buildings close to the Frontlines.(With warp-in you risk a Pylon/Prism, not the gate for example). Building Addons serve as another incentive NOT to move your Buildings. | ||
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Pendragon
Canada23 Posts
I like mechanics simple, yet elegant and deep. I think floating buildings producing units fits the bill pretty well, but cluttering this idea up with secondary effects detracts, not adds to it. | ||
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