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Despite the length of this post, the changes for the Terran I propose here are really simple and straightforward and the only reason why it may sound complicated is because I try to explain the reasons for the changes and the effects they'll result in.
Wings of Liberty
From the very first day, since announcement of the Terran, from the very first interviews of people who tried the Terran, it felt for me like the Terran lack something big. As LordofAscension put it in his Blizzcon2008 article at the SC:Legacy portal:
...When I said that the Terran were boring - I mean in terms of innovation. The Protoss have warp-in, the Zerg have the Creep dynamic, and while the Terran have some neat infantry mechanics going on (the Reactors, the new role of the Ghosts, etc) there isn't any sweeping change for the Terran. There is no evolution. They are the middle of the road race; there isn't anything wrong with that - they're very solid. I would have just liked to see a little more innovation...
The Terran have enough of changes to make them play differently from SC:BW version, but they still feel very... same. There's a lack of something big, but yet very natural to the Terran. Something that vastly innovates the Terran, but yet feels like it always was there.
This is the reason that made me write all this stuff. This, and the fact that unlike the Zerg or the Protoss, the Terran so far haven't seen any attention when it comes to making base-management more dynamic and innovative.
Born to Crawl
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7554/tmbcs0.jpg
(this picture is just to help your imagination, it isn't supposed to represent the exact way the concept will be played)
But what is so natural to the Terran, and at the same time barely appears in real games? What idea is extremely persistent throughout the whole game – from single player to the multiplayer – but yet just not powerful enough to have any significant impact on the Terran gameplay?
What immediately comes to the mind is Terran's ability to move buildings and production line around. Remember one of the missions in the original Starcraft, when you start by flying your base onto the space platform? Or Blizzard's Terran introduction video at SC2 website? Or that rare gem, the epic FireBatHero vs sAviOr game at Python, where FBH flew across the map with Barracks and Factories, rebuild whole his base at the new expand, and then shockingly proceed to win the game (or more accurate, sAviOr shockingly proceed to lose it)?
So what if flying with all of your buildings around, constantly rebuilding and reallocating stuff was a significant part of the Terran's gameplay? What if Slow Push gets entirely new meaning as the Terran will now push not just with turrets, but also with factories and barracks, getting the whole production line closer to the enemy? I think making this concept viable, would give the Terran a lot more of the depth and a big room for different amazing strategies and tricks, which were hinted before but weren't useful.
To make it work we need to address several problems, so let’s start with the most obvious one:
Problem 1: Having buildings in the flying mode is way too disadvantageous – you need your factories to produce reinforcement and when you fly with them you don't get any. This gives a good number of various reasons not to move Production Line around.
This is the first and foremost thing we need to deal with.
Starbase Operational
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/810/810449/starcraft-ii-20070803003113193.jpg
Before we address the first problem, I ask you to remember a concept that was in the game about a year ago but was scrapped by Blizzard, probably, for being not effective – the Starbase. The Starbase was an upgrade for the Starport that allowed it to produce units while it flies. It was very fun concept in my and not only my opinion:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60039¤tpage=2
But it just wasn't useful enough. However, I find a Starbase concept to be the best way to solve our Problem 1. I suggest to stretch the Starbase concept for our needs and Introduce a single upgrade that once researched allows all production buildings (except Command Center) to produce units in the flying mode.
I.e. after lifting off your Barrack, Factory or Starport you still will be able to purchase units from them.
You probably have two objections in your mind right now: firstly, that would be imbalanced and secondly, that just doesn't make sense from aesthetics’ standpoint.
For the former – it won't be imbalanced. In fact, it would be quite opposite of being imbalanced; it fits the Terran very neatly and naturally. The reason for that is simple – Add-ons. Add-ons are still in the game and flying Building counts as one without add-on. You need siege tanks? Land factory and attach tech add-on. You need faster Hellion’s production? Land Factory and attach reactor add-on.
For the second objection – upgrade makes sense for the Starport if even Blizzard tried it. For Factory and Barrack that may seem a bit weird, but it always could be explained with drop-pods. And if Dropship doesn’t land when it unloads units, then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Buildings doing same, and in this case aesthetics shouldn’t hinder gameplay.
Now when buildings can pump units while uplifted it may seem like moving them is viable option, but not really. There’s still reason why you wouldn’t do that:
Problem 2: Add-ons again. Like I said before, without add-ons your production is severely limited and rebuilding them in new place each time you reallocate your building would take a lot of time.
With that in mind let's move to the next part.
Salvage
Salvage is very neat Blizzard's take on adding emphasis to the fact that the Terran are survivalists. When things look grim for the Terran's colony – and they look grim very often – and the defense line can't hold on anymore, the Terran pack everything they can, lift off and fly away. Salvage is very fitting here.
Gameplay wise, it's not very good addition. How many uses it has besides bunker rush and prolonging already lost game? Not so many. Hopefully, it could be made much more useful and at the same time help us to solve Problem 2.
For this suggestion I'm assuming that Salvage works this way:
- Requires SCV
- Completes in less than 5 seconds for any structure
- Returns 100% of the building cost
Proposal for the salvage: reconstructing building after it has been salvaged takes 80% less time.
Take your SCV, salvage the Supply Depot, and next time you build it with any other SCV, construction of this single new Supply Depot will be completed in a matter of couple seconds.
This way, the problem with add-ons will be pretty much eliminated as it will take no more than couple seconds to rebuild them, if you properly salvaged them before. Important thing you should keep in mind – this change won't allow you to tech faster or mass production buildings faster. It affects only how the Terran player moves buildings around.
Of course, the obvious drawback is how it would apply to the Bunker rush. I'm as a Zerg player definitely not interested in an even stronger Bunker rush, so in the next part I'll take the easiest path to solve it.
More Salvage
Let's get straight to the next issue.
Problem 3: unless Buildings fly ridiculously fast flying alone won't be able to release full potential of the concept.
Let me try to explain this problem a bit better. With previous suggestions in place moving around production line for the Terran will make significantly more sense than before. However, flying with buildings is still much less effective than having them landed, since reinforcement from uplifted buildings will be limited to the basic units and they won't be produced at the same rate as with reactor add-on attached. This means that we can't fly with building for too long and as a result moving buildings at great distances won't be viable option most of the time. Slightly increasing flying speed for the buildings would help, but it won't remove this problem. Besides, what if you need to fly over the part of the map, which simply isn't a good place for newly built marines to pop in (i.e. you need to fly over the empty island)?
This problem has to be addressed in order to make concept much more entertaining and useful and Salvage can help us again. We need to change Salvage rule to resolve the problem. We need to make it so Salvage can be used on any building except defensive ones (and except Command Center).
Basically, we deny the player to salvage bunkers and turrets and instead allow him to salvage and then reconstruct Production buildings. Amazing thing about this change is that despite of how it seems it won't make ability to lift off useless, but rather greatly compliment it. Flying and Salvage have very clear distinctions:
- You need SCV to Salvage and then SCV to reconstruct building. There's no need in SCV to lift off.
- Reconstructing salvaged building still requires time (if we apply 80% speed-up to the SC:BW timing, for factory that would result in 12~14 seconds) and contrary to the enhanced Flying mode, reinforcement from the building will be completely cut-off.
This means that on short distances or in close proximity to the enemy flying is the best option. On long distances – salvaging and reconstructing is faster and more effective. But together they will tremendously improve mobility of the Terran's base.
This change will make concept much sounder and as a result of this, the flying mode itself will be used more often. There is drawback for that, which non-Terran players may find unfair (i.e. getting some of the already spend resources back), but I don’t think it’s much more unfair than, say, unbeatable Protoss army in BW late-game PvZ. Moreover, benefits of this change — more interesting base-management, deeper Terran’s strategy (production switch from Factories to Starports as an example) and greater diversity of the races with further emphasis on the Terran’s industrial style — certainly outweigh negative impacts it may have.
Not-so-trivia Part
With previous problems addressed concept is almost ready, but there’s still a lot to say about it. In this part I tried to present as shortly as possible additional ideas on how this concept may be further improved. Certainly, not all of them are necessary, but their effects are interesting to consider.
[Building Size: the less, the better]
Here is the deal: how do we move buildings around the map, if we can barely fit any outside of our main? This question is especially true for the maps with a lot of cliffs (think of Sin Peaks of Baekdu). It's not only hard to place buildings with add-ons anywhere outside expansions – those buildings you find place for will clutter movement of your own troops. Only way to deal with this problem is to reduce size of the Terran's buildings. It makes sense even without this concept: why would buildings with add-ons in SC2 take as much space as they take in SC:BW, when in SC2 having add-on attached is so much more important? In SC2 there's no reason at all in having buildings without add-ons, while in SC:BW that was a norm half of the time.
I don't know exactly why, but hopefully guys at Blizzard already made buildings take less space than before (in the Terran Gameplay Video you can see that Barrack is 3x3 and not 4x3). However they could be made even smaller with the minimal, but very interesting adjustments to the game art.
+ Show Spoiler +Imagine the Factory flying around being partially exposed, then landing and “repairing” itself by building an add-on.
[Add-ons are built without SCV – salvaged without SCV either]
Buildings construct add-ons by themselves, so it makes sense to allow them salvage add-ons without SCVs. That will also make pushing with Production line a bit more entertaining, much less troublesome and less risky. They still can be salvaged with SCV if there's need for that.
[As dynamic and fast-paced as possible]
In order to make this concept fit Starcraft game pace as much as possible we'll need to tweak several variables. One of them is the delay caused by the lift-off animation. Removal of this delay (only the delay, not the animation, of course) will allow the Buildings to start movement and unit production immediately after lift-off command was issued. A Building's flying speed also should be carefully balanced in order to maximize effectiveness of the concept.
As an experiment I would suggest completely separating lift-off and landing sequences from unit production. I.e. once enhanced Flying Mode upgrade is done you can lift-off barrack while marine is in production without canceling it. If you had reactor add-on attached at this moment all its benefits will be immediately lost, and of course you won't be able to do same with units like Ghost or Siege Tank as they can't be produced without tech add-on.
[Salvage costs 30%, returns 130%]
How is that different from simply returning 100% of the building cost?
- The need to pay for the Salvage before you can use it means that if for some reason (death of the scv, for example) salvaging wasn't finished the investment will be lost.
- The fact that the Salvage costs resources means you won't be able to use it in case you weren't careful and run out of cash. This puts the Terran at least somehow in line with other two races who can never get their resources back.
+ Show Spoiler +
[Salvage requires Upgraded Command Center]
Making Upgraded Command Center a requirement for the Salvage will make Salvage not available in early-game and will give opponent means to get rid of this ability, hence making Salvage a bit less abusive in the late-game, especially considering that Upgraded Command Center cannot lift off and therefore is easier to kill.
[Tie ability to produce units in the flying mode with a building that is unable to lift off]
In case playing against this concept will get annoying in certain situations, we can change prerequisites for the enhanced Flying Mode. Instead of making it upgradeable ability, we can make it depend on a certain immobile Building that unlocks ability once built, and if the player loses this Structure he will be unable to produce units when his Buildings are uplifted. It will not only leave less room for abuses, but will also add a nice twist to the concept.
[Offensive capabilities]
Point of this idea is to make Production Buildings more useful outside of the Base and to give player more reason to move them around.
Could works like that:
Putting SCV inside the Barrack allows the Barrack to use its defense perimeter.
Putting SCV inside the Factory allows the Factory to create minefield around itself.
It also worth considering whether Building can fly with SCV sitting inside or not. And of course these abilities shouldn’t be available in the early-game.
Why it requires SCV? Buildings outside of the base will get under fire a lot of times and having SCVs hanging around far away from the base just for the sake of repairing and nothing else doesn’t seem fun and effective. But If SCVs have more uses besides repairing then tossing them around will be much more entertaining. Also adds some additional base-management.
[Terran and Wreckage]
The Wreckage I'm talking about is different from the one that I believe was scrapped from the Thor. With this idea some Terran buildings (add-ons and Production structures) once destroyed leave heap of the metal on the ground. This wreckage doesn't affect units' movement. It's neutral - that is, there's no need to destroy it in order to kill the Terran and moreover enemy Terran player can use it for his own needs. How it's used? It can be either salvaged, in this case it won't give any resources but only speed-up bonus, or it can be repaired back into functional building with the help of one or more SCVs (or with the help of Nighthawk if it still has repair ability).
The point of this one is to slightly increase vitality of the Buildings and therefore give Terran player more reason to use Buildings in somewhat dangerous situations.
Summary
- The concept fits the Terran very naturally and yet may greatly renew the way the Terran is played. You may think of it as Terran’s response: while the Protoss and the Zerg were increasing mobility of the units with Warp-in and Nydus Worm, the Terran upgraded mobility of their whole base.
- Salvage, Add-ons, Buildings' ability to fly, Supply Depots used as walls – all these mechanics will be significantly boosted, become much more important for the Terran and much more integrated.
- This suggestion pumps good deal of the base-management into the Terran. Here is a fast breakdown of player’s actions:
+ Show Spoiler +To move just one building using Salvage:
1. Select SCV;
2. Use it to Salvage Building;
3. Select SCV at new location;
4. Rebuild Building.
All of them should be performed individually for each building and require player to have screen centered at SCV/Building.
To move one or group of the buildings using ability to fly:
1. Salvage add-on;
2. Lift off;
3. Move to new location;
4. Once each building arrived, land it and rebuild add-on.
Whether they can be performed for all buildings in the group at once or not depends on the current game situation. Action 4 should be issued individually for each building in the group
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I don't really post in this part of the forum or keep up with it but I read your whole post and just wanted to say that I was really impressed. I think it is a very good idea though obviously it will take a lot of work and thought to figure out if it can really be made to work.
Just saying nice post more than anything!
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I really really like the concept and this is a great post.. I think it would be really hard to find the line between useful and not completely game changing..
Also, salvage won't give 100%.. that would be far too powerful.
The more I think about it the more features of your idea are plagued with possible overpowered strategies..
EG: Triple salvage 3 depots and wall in your opponent with tanks behind etc etc..
Having said all that I hope blizzard gives this a read and draws some inspiration because I completely agree that a lot of these concepts sound very natural and are really elegantly thought out.
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Very good post and very good idea. As an overall idea it shines. Blizzard could take it and tweak it and balance it to get a wonderful new mechanic. Seriously, good job.
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United States3824 Posts
The whole thing about being able to use addons that people left behind wouldn't matter anymore though! Remember how big that was in 1997?
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very good job
nice idea
i hope blizzard reads this and goes through with it
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Wow, this is possibly one of the best ideas I have ever seen for SC2.
This will be especially strong since terran buildings fly much faster than in SC1(right?).
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if I recall, at the very start of SC2, Starports could build units while in the air already.. but for some reason they took it out =[ I thought that was a genius idea.. altho rax's and facts, not so much, since what.. is a marine that finishes just gonna instantly drop to the ground with a parachute?
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The lack of addons doesn't fully balance this idea. Picture a terran push with three or four factories floating over key tanks while those tanks are now being reinforced instantly at the front line. That sounds a little rigged to me.
There doesn't seem to be much reason to ever land the factories that you don't need add ons for, and I think that makes the idea overpowered,
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I always thought the Starport should be a STAR/PORT!
The name incinuates it is for space!
But the command center shouldn't be excluded from in air unit building imo however. If it was an upgrade it wouldn't affect the game until later and it would still be awesome.
It would be awesome if there were floating bunkers. Of course it would be only useful for moving because seige tanks would be vulnerable with bunkers or supply depots bloacking ground attacks. Perhaps flying bunkers would only have anti air?
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I like the idea of having mobile floating unit production. It could fill the gap with Zerg and Protoss already having a form of mobile unit deployment now that the drop pods are gone but it'd still be inferior in terms of actual mobility since floating buildings are pretty slow.
However the example with the starbase shows that it must've already crossed Blizzard's mind which leads me to believe that they have dropped the idea and it's unlikely that they will actually include it.
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I gotta say, the idea of the Terran push including buildings just fits really well.
This gives me a wacky idea. You know how the Command Center can carry a certain number of SCVs like a dropship? What if all production buildings were like that? Barracks could load up infantry, factories could load up vehicles. In fact, screw the medivac dropship, it becomes just the medivac, a flying healer. All Terran drops get done with buildings.
In addition to being able to drop, all Terran buildings could produce units while flying as long as they have empty cargo space. Building attachments would also stay attached to the building in flight. If you want to switch attachments, they'd be an attach/detach button.
Advantages for the Terran:
a) Earlier drop tech
b) Buildings are harder to kill than dropships
c) Do not have to spend extra resources on dropships
d) Enables you to shorten resupply lines without losing production time on your buildings
Disadvantages for the Terran:
a) Buildings move slower than dropships
b) Opponent can prevent your drop by positioning units so you cannot land (bring Banshees!)
c) Pretty much impossible to land where the opponent has buildings (bring nukes?)
Probably waaaaay to drastic a change to implement at this stage in the development process (you'd have to completely retest Terran for balance), but fun to think about.
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On January 31 2009 03:03 inReacH wrote:
The more I think about it the more features of your idea are plagued with possible overpowered strategies..
Are you sure there's more of them, than in, let's say, warp-in + phase prism? :3
EG: Triple salvage 3 depots and wall in your opponent with tanks behind etc etc..
Zerg has Spawn Creep to prevent wall-ins and nydus worm, which now is much earlier tech than before, to counter them.
Protoss has warp-in and against stalkers such wall-in doesn't matter.
So, if you manage to keep containment by denying aforementioned attempts to get out then it will work. Otherwise it wouldn't (:
On January 31 2009 04:00 GeneralStan wrote:
The lack of addons doesn't fully balance this idea. Picture a terran push with three or four factories floating over key tanks while those tanks are now being reinforced instantly at the front line. That sounds a little rigged to me.
There doesn't seem to be much reason to ever land the factories that you don't need add ons for, and I think that makes the idea overpowered,
It depends on a lot of variables and one of them is effectiveness of Reactor add-on.
But that's interesting thing to speculate about. If your opponent uses Zealots + Immortals then constantly flying can certainly work, but if he uses tons of Stalkers or, in case of Zerg, Hydralisks? Does having your factories floating in such situation outweigh benefits provided by Reactor add-on? And if turns out that both ways are viable then that adds additional depth to the terran, imho.
Anyway, keep in mind that Protoss has Phase Prism which is much more Gay than that... Can terran has a bit fun too? :3
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On January 31 2009 04:00 GeneralStan wrote:
The lack of addons doesn't fully balance this idea. Picture a terran push with three or four factories floating over key tanks while those tanks are now being reinforced instantly at the front line. That sounds a little rigged to me.
There doesn't seem to be much reason to ever land the factories that you don't need add ons for, and I think that makes the idea overpowered,
Think of the concept of the proxy pylon, it is similar except you only lose one pylon if they ketch it instead of a factory/Rax it is still instant reinforcement.
Also the other thing is as to them dropping in bad spots you could give it a holding cap of 2 units and you could give it an auto cast ability to "drop every unit it makes" so if you are flying over a bad patch you could just not drop em, the other thing is it could only hold units it just finished it couldn't pick up additional units.
To OP the one problem I see with this is the issue of little to no penalty for things like a proxy rush you could proxxy a fact and if it fails just float it back and continue production, similar with a Rax.I also see the issue of an even more effective proxxy were you just build your shit in a hidden spot in there base EX: The big base you have in Destination early game just building a Rax or two and just pumping a few units in there base were they cant see it or in coliseum 2 at the natural expansion, Likewise in Medusa, you get the picture. Anyhow its a good idea for innovation and I think we should keep looking at it however its current quirks atm.
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If I may add to the idea in a tiny way.
You mention that floating barracks, for example, would drop their units straight to the ground. Well, I just want to introduce an alternative which will be a choice for balancing these mechanisms in their workings:
A barracks, when floated, will be able to build marines for as long as there are empty slots in the building queue. A finished marine, in the floating barracks, will remain in the building queue. To get them out of the building, you'd need to land it. But then they'd pop out all five at once.
Taking them along for the push then causes a need for some extra management. But anyway, it's way too complex for me to oversee the necessary fine tuning.
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I really like the ideas you brought up, InRaged, but may I suggest some changes?
1) Instead of a bunch of separate upgrades/structures for all the features mentioned there's a single Command Center add-on that grants all of it: Salvage, faster floating speed and the ability to produce units when lifted.
This makes things much more streamlined. Any kind of abusive proxy strategies could be prevented by proper scouting (checking what add-on the Terran has gone for in his main/natural).
Additonally, it forces the Terran player to choose between:
a) Nomadic add-on (Salvage, faster floating, producing when lifted)
b) Surveillance Station add-on (currently it's not an add-on, which imo is a stupid design decision since the ability to deny the Terran from having a scan is crucial - having to kill the whole CC makes it close to impossible)
c) unliftable Planetary Fortress (best suitable for unsafe, probably temporarily hidden expansions)
2) 'Dropping' newly produced units when lifted would be exclusive to the Starport.
Allowing Factories/Barracks to do that would make drops too cheap. Not only would it overlap with Medivac's role but it'd also be much safer due to the building not being required to go back for more units, lots of HP and the fact that it doesn't have to land (in BW you could take cliffs with a proxied building but unbuildable terrain on the cliff prevented you from doing that - this wouldn't be the case anymore).
What I propose is non-Starport buildings being able to finish training a unit but not spawn it until the building actually lands (so when the unit is 100% finished it's spawned as soon as the building lands). Faster floating speed (currently present in SC2) should make up for the inability to drop units while lifted, especially considering the fact that you yourself noted that Salvage is the better choice for longer distances anyway.
3) I don't think Salvage should refund 100% of the resources invested. That should be one of the drawbacks of relocating your buildings faster this way instead of floating them to another location.
4) The 'wreckage' thing seems to overcomplicte things. I'd say it's unncessary.
5) Maybe the 'offensive capabilites' should sacrifice the SCV for a temporary buff (some kind of aura - different for the Factory and Barracks, none in case of the Starport to further diversify those two branches, maybe).
It's work like that:
1. An SCV (or maybe 3 or so SCVs - depends on the balance) enter an unlifted building.
2. The building lifts off and moves to a desired destination point.
3. The SCV(s) is used to activate the temporary ability (let's say a range boost to nearby units).
What do you think?
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Sweden33719 Posts
A+, I think this month might feature the highest quality feedback since.. ever ;p
I gotta say, the idea of the Terran push including buildings just fits really well.
This gives me a wacky idea. You know how the Command Center can carry a certain number of SCVs like a dropship? What if all production buildings were like that? Barracks could load up infantry, factories could load up vehicles. In fact, screw the medivac dropship, it becomes just the medivac, a flying healer. All Terran drops get done with buildings.
I think you'd either have to make buildings imba fast or it'd be pretty meh. If you could upgrade, for example, individual Supply Depots into dropships tho...... That'd be cool  ! HP halved, speed like a regular dship.
EDIT: Oops quoted wrong post.
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Another idea, maybe you could attach dropships to floating buildings, and any units produced would load into the dropship automatically? this would allow for even more versatility in where you can produce units, as the buildings don't even have to be over somewhere the units can stand. (this could be a good or bad thing, I'm just throwing it out there.) It would also require some micro, as you'd have to unload the dropships.
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This is a very cool idea, in my opinion. It seems well-balanced as you mentioned, with the drawback of losing addons which are going to be even more important in SCII.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Btw, InRaged, would you mind if I (or you) added [img ] tags to the images in your post (at least the ones hosted on imageshack)? IMO posts look better when images show up without having to click them. Up to you however.
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This is an excellent idea, but the fast build salvage part is a little iffy to me.
Have you thought about making floating buildings weaker? That way it's more of a risk to bring all your production facilities to the front lines or float them in the enemy base and cheese with them. The enemy would be able to snipe them, just like how they snipe science vessels.
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Good idea.... I'm not sure about the speeded up construction after salvage. Maybe its easier to give terran an upgrade that improves building construction speed and call it a day.
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I like the idea about a building "storing" units while it flies, and then letting them all out when it lands.
You'd have to have a limit on the number stored in a building (5 units? Some sort of space thing like a dropship to balance different power units?), but this would allow mapmakers to still use unbuildable terrain to limit the power of proxies.
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This is a great idea. One thing I don't think you stressed is that this increases macro. Alot actually and in a fun way.
The other part I love is the idea of making marines in a barracks and using drop pods. It could be that the floating barracks has an ability drop pods and you can drop within a radius of the barracks.
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I think it's a really neat idea, but there is a problem which I think you failed to adress; what if the slow push fails? Would not then the Terran lose those buildings, rendering him severely crippled?
I personally feel pushes need to be made by military units, and should not be accompanied by their production facilities. You know, sending the men out into battle usually doesn't include bringing their bunk beds and porn mags along. The moving around of the base I like. But when I looked at the very first picture, I actually thought you were going in a completely different direction, one which appealed to me greatly. Instead of the Terran having one big base, they had several small outposts? Like in the campaign mode of starcraft1. What if the Terran baseplay was not centered around turtling in your main but around spreading out, applying some preliminary defenses unless the outpost is to become a more permanent settlement, and you know ESTABLISH A PERIMETER or something ("yes sir, move out squad, get those tanks up on that ridge, tell them rednecks in the SCVs to get some turrets up! Move it! This zone is hot with Zerg!") I dunno I think that would be made of awesome. I think it would be sweet if the one race that doesn't need creep or pylon power would use that flexibility and force the enemy to hunt down his production facilities instead of always going after the damn mineral line.
Losing a few outposts would be a normal part of any game. Basically Terrans would take over Zerg's role of mass expanding, but losing expansions would be much more common. It would be where the salvage ability comes in, when you're expecting to get overrun, drop ships come in for the men and SCVs tear down the base. This mechanic would, like was suggested long ago, make players think in terms of squads rather than that one big army. I love the idea of warfare on several fronts. And if I were, oh I dunno, an agent of the swarm, I would have so much more fun taking down the outposts than trying to keep the Terran contained until I could break his turtle.
So yeah, great idea but I like mine better, hehe :D
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I could imagine using this as a reinforceable drop mechanism. Just time it so that like 6 facts fly over his base and all spawn hellions or something instantly.
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10387 Posts
meh, you're forgetting something. SC2 is more likely to not have a slowpush, due to increased mobility of units and the siege tank most likely being relegated to a lesser role :\
Seriously, its a REALLY neato idea, but I think it is most useful in the slowpush situation. Looking at all the matchups that Terran has in SC2, its seems like all matchups will be far more mobile, and less slowpushing involved. Plus, I'm not too fond of the idea of bringing all of my production facilities to the frontlines, where if my army is destroyed, then so are my production facilities which = GG
Plus, what's wrong with not being radically changed? Terrans don't necessarily need to have this mobility change, just like how the Zerg doesnt need to have a cliff hopping unit like the Terran/Protoss.
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Great idea but wayyyy unbalanced!
You focused 100% on how go the your idea useful and powerful and you achieved that in the sense that the way it is is wayyy powerful.
What if a player say decides to push and goes to the middle of the map. Now he wants to finish off the enemy player and in normal game it would take some time to build and reinforce your units, but with all these floating factories you can now reinforce immediately.
Another thing is that units if not manually set who to attack tend to attack the closest target, that would mean enemy player units fire at your instantly reinforcing factories with lots of HP, while getting pwned by your forces.
This would mean everytime terran push they use this ability to instantly reinforce their army and for the buildings to take all the damage while your army stays untouched.
It would require immense micro, not possible really to manually target with every unit you have every several seconds enemy's units instead of the units auto-attacking the buildings!
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SlickR, you should read some tweaks suggested by various posters.
The ideas InRaged proposed are very interesting and can be fixed pretty easily. Personally, I think these things should be much more streamlined.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
this is a really cool idea, but salvage just cannot give you back 100% in a 5 second interval
thats pretty op >.>
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 31 2009 19:43 SlickR12345 wrote:
Great idea but wayyyy unbalanced!
You focused 100% on how go the your idea useful and powerful and you achieved that in the sense that the way it is is wayyy powerful.
What if a player say decides to push and goes to the middle of the map. Now he wants to finish off the enemy player and in normal game it would take some time to build and reinforce your units, but with all these floating factories you can now reinforce immediately.
Another thing is that units if not manually set who to attack tend to attack the closest target, that would mean enemy player units fire at your instantly reinforcing factories with lots of HP, while getting pwned by your forces.
This would mean everytime terran push they use this ability to instantly reinforce their army and for the buildings to take all the damage while your army stays untouched.
It would require immense micro, not possible really to manually target with every unit you have every several seconds enemy's units instead of the units auto-attacking the buildings! And yet Zerg can do this with a nydus worm and Protoss can do this with warp in
great post btw!!
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On January 31 2009 20:28 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 19:43 SlickR12345 wrote:
Great idea but wayyyy unbalanced!
You focused 100% on how go the your idea useful and powerful and you achieved that in the sense that the way it is is wayyy powerful.
What if a player say decides to push and goes to the middle of the map. Now he wants to finish off the enemy player and in normal game it would take some time to build and reinforce your units, but with all these floating factories you can now reinforce immediately.
Another thing is that units if not manually set who to attack tend to attack the closest target, that would mean enemy player units fire at your instantly reinforcing factories with lots of HP, while getting pwned by your forces.
This would mean everytime terran push they use this ability to instantly reinforce their army and for the buildings to take all the damage while your army stays untouched.
It would require immense micro, not possible really to manually target with every unit you have every several seconds enemy's units instead of the units auto-attacking the buildings! And yet Zerg can do this with a nydus worm and Protoss can do this with warp in great post btw!!
its not the same, for protoss you need to build pylons, those pylons are easy to destroy, mind you 300hp and shields and those pylons can't move.
phase prism is also fragile 100hp and 40shields
For terran those buildings can have 1250HP, can move all the time and can produce at all times.
Not to mention the add-on selling/building time and cost/no-cost.
Its a pretty good idea, but needs more balance.
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this really seems like a good idea, but still i duno how this might change sc as we know it. but good idea still and maybe something we'll see in sc2.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 31 2009 19:43 SlickR12345 wrote:
Great idea but wayyyy unbalanced!
You focused 100% on how go the your idea useful and powerful and you achieved that in the sense that the way it is is wayyy powerful.
What if a player say decides to push and goes to the middle of the map. Now he wants to finish off the enemy player and in normal game it would take some time to build and reinforce your units, but with all these floating factories you can now reinforce immediately.
Another thing is that units if not manually set who to attack tend to attack the closest target, that would mean enemy player units fire at your instantly reinforcing factories with lots of HP, while getting pwned by your forces.
This would mean everytime terran push they use this ability to instantly reinforce their army and for the buildings to take all the damage while your army stays untouched.
It would require immense micro, not possible really to manually target with every unit you have every several seconds enemy's units instead of the units auto-attacking the buildings!
Eh, units on attack-move will automatically switch target to units, they wont be standing there firing at the buildings while getting killed..
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Yes, a lot of people who are complaining about the OP-ness of this strategy need to be aware that the slowpush probably isn't going to be as powerful as it currently is in SC:BW. (since the tank isn't as powerful compared to other units and also of huge importance: there are less huge minefields laid by vults.)
And as to AI's targeting buildings instead of units. While this is quite relevant in several situations in SC:BW (see PVP's where the defending player builds a pylon in front of their nat when trying to defend vs a larger number of goons). While I haven't tried it myself the starcraft 2 AI is shaping up to be QUITE superior to the SC:BW one and most likely not waste it's time attacking floating facs when there are other units attacking it.
Not to mention: even with the faster movement speed of buildings I'd imagine some may be lost if the terrans push is overrun. And losing a production building, while not as easy to kill as say a warp in pylon or phase prisim, will be a much bigger loss to the terran if it actually does get killed. (think TvZ late game and CC's vs hatcheries. Sure the CC is harder to kill, but losing a CC is almost always more of a loss to the terran than losing a hatchery is to a zerg)
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Phearlock, I believe FA meant it as that units should prioritize units over buildings. But if buildings are closer to the enemy units or your units are not even within the enemy units' range then the latter should target buildings.
I completely agree with the 3rd paragraph of your post. Losing your production structures would be a massive blow - people can't really compare that to losing a single Pylon. ;;
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InRaged I think this mechanic is worth modeling in WC3 or SC. Would you be interested in that?
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About mechanics being imbalanced, that is a senseless claim and a useless discussion topic.
Mechanics define the way you play the game. Each mirror match up is logically balanced (on symmetric maps). For all other match ups, all other parameters (that are part of the mechanics) simply need fine tuning. It is possible, and reasonable, that blizzard decides to introduce some quite wild mechanics for terran, and then to balance things out, give overlords some more speed, or make some protoss building build faster.. whatever it takes to get to a good balance.
One point that people could complain about on a mechanic is that the mechanic will provide a single strongest strategy, which can be balanced by parameter tweaking, but which also ruins the variation in strategies that will occur in pro games.
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Archerofaiur, I wanted to try that already and not only that, but no luck :[
That's worth effort in WC3 only with Project Revolution mod but it's dead, apparently, and I'm not even sure it's as easy to tweak as regular UMS.
And in SC making buildings produce stuff while uplifted or simply increasing their flying speed requires hacking of starcraft.exe ...
On January 31 2009 19:59 MrHoon wrote:
this is a really cool idea, but salvage just cannot give you back 100% in a 5 second interval
thats pretty op >.>
It may return 70%. Or return 100%, but costs 30% so net-result is still 70% but makes feature a bit more interesting to play with/against. Whichever.
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On January 31 2009 03:51 Skyze wrote:
if I recall, at the very start of SC2, Starports could build units while in the air already.. but for some reason they took it out =[ I thought that was a genius idea.. altho rax's and facts, not so much, since what.. is a marine that finishes just gonna instantly drop to the ground with a parachute?
actually that would be perfect XD
but then it would be like C&C
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On February 01 2009 05:29 Sonu wrote:actually that would be perfect XD
but then it would be like C&C
How would that be like C&C? The only games I can think of that operated like that were the Homeworld Series and Universe at War (Hierarchy Walkers).
For the record, I like the the whole idea.
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Not to be mean or anything, but what would this do to team games? A slow push takes time, time that is robbed from your nonterran ally meaning he has to fend off superior forces due to your reduced mobility.
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very nice post! love it! Would have very high potential of interesting mechanics and situations!
TERRAN POWER GOGOGO!!
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On February 01 2009 05:26 InRaged wrote:
Archerofaiur, I wanted to try that already and not only that, but no luck :[
That's worth effort in WC3 only with Project Revolution mod but it's dead, apparently, and I'm not even sure it's as easy to tweak as regular UMS.
And in SC making buildings produce stuff while uplifted or simply increasing their flying speed requires hacking of starcraft.exe ...
I fiddled around with the WC3 editor this morning and it definatly is possible to model it.
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Why not make production buildings have a secondary role while flying? It would make the Terran be able to switch between roles on the fly and encourage the use of lift off while diversifying the game.
In the context of SCBW:
If factories had a repair ability while lifted off then they would be ideal in accompanying a push. While the tank line isn't threatened, they could land and reinforce the push. To those that complain that SC2 is dumbed down: this adds a new unit to manage with different purpose and method.
If the barracks' scouting ability were increased while it was floating then it wouldn't quite be set apart from its current role - after all, it is an annoying eye that just floats there in PvT - but it would be the choice for building scouting. If it were able to build outposts (some sort of bunker/turret/bunker-turret-hybrid! that would be like Pardot Kynes' environment-monitoring stations) it would be something that would move around the map and prepare areas for Terran use, and as a bonus, could be used in some sort of a rush.
The science facility could be a floating umm... science facility that repairs and recharges science vessels (one at a time, now). Those that scream "Imbalance! Irradiates and EMP too soon!" should remember that this function could not be used as a rush to those little green clouds or the Devil's tsunami of annoyance that blankets my noble warriors; and instead would only be useful after the necessary upgrades were purchased (after that it's pretty awesome though - the dome could depress and the vessel could land there. Very erotic).
The engineering bay can upgrade SCVs or something and increase worker management micro!
Starports can fly around being a freaking air-aircraft carrier (emphasise the wraith, yo). Benefits don't number very high and are pretty much limited to encouraging wraith usage (and only if it is viable), but heh, the Intrepid is sick and this would be too. Maybe if it recharged energy it would increase the use of stealth. Who knows?
Also, the armory should fly over infantry and drop guns (Ak-47s for everyone) and rocket launchers and stuff. This would increase bio in TvP (ignore this, this is stupid).
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Yes, I think adding a secondary role for lifted production structures is the way to go. Non-production structures shouldn't have those - that'd make things a bit too complex, imo.
As said previously, buildings shouldn't be able to drop units they produce but simply store them inside, and unload when the building finally lands. The limit of stored units would be subject to balance.
Additionally, I think that the buildings capable of lifting off should have an engine-like extention on top of them that can be targeted separately from the core structure (by ranged units), and when killed the building would be unable to float anymore, unless repaired by an SCV. If the engine is destroyed during the flight, the building crashes onto the ground and loses a portion of its HP; if it's above unbuildable ground (be it water, cliff edge or whatever) - it loses all HP.
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This is how I see this (based heavily on InRaged's OP). I bolded the changes I made.
Salvage
- accessed by building Nomad Facility add-on at the Command Center
- Salvage can be used on any building except defensive ones (and except Command Center)
- requires SCV (add-ons are built without SCV – salvaged without SCV either)
- completes in less than 5 seconds for any structure
- costs 30% and returns 130% of the building cost (subject to balance)
- reconstructing building after it has been salvaged takes 80% less time (Take your SCV, salvage the Supply Depot, and next time you build it with any other SCV, construction of this single new Supply Depot will be completed in a matter of couple seconds.)
+ Show Spoiler [Salvage process by InRaged] +
Lift-off mode
- buildings float at Brood War speed (faster speed can be accessed by building Nomad Facility add-on at the Command Center)
- Factory/Barracks can train units but not spawn them (when the unit is 100% finished it's stored inside the building, the production of the unit next in queue starts; unit storage limit subject to balance); allows to relocate buildings without wasting production time (subject to balance)
- Starport can normally produce units
- Command Center cannot produce units when lifted at all (SCVs currently queued need to be cancelled before the CC can lift off)
- lifted structures have decreased base armor (to enable the enemy to prevent the Terran from relocating structures and/or using their secondary roles)
- lifted off structures have secondary roles (inspired by Kwidowmaker) (does not require Nomad Facility):
Command Center: can carry up to 5 SCVs
Engineering Bay: increases range of friendly units by 1 within a certain radius
Barracks: increases healing rate of Medivacs within a certain radius
Factory: increases repair rate of SCVs within a certain radius
Starport: can produce units normally
Enemy players can disable the secondary roles by bringing the structures to the ground (i.e. killing the Lift-off Module).
Salvage vs. Lift-off (solely by InRaged)
To move just one building using Salvage:
1. Select SCV;
2. Use it to Salvage Building;
3. Select SCV at new location;
4. Rebuild Building.
All of them should be performed individually for each building and require player to have screen centered at SCV/Building.
To move one or group of the buildings using ability to fly:
1. Salvage add-on;
2. Lift off;
3. Move to new location;
4. Once each building arrived, land it and rebuild add-on.
Whether they can be performed for all buildings in the group at once or not depends on the current game situation. Action 4 should be issued individually for each building in the group
Add-ons
- less space required
+ Show Spoiler [ New Size by InRaged] +
Lab: unlocks advanced units at the structure it's connected to; unlocks tech when connected to a proper structure (available at Barracks, Factory and Starport)
Reactor: adds an extra prduction queue (available at Barracks, Factory and Starport)
Surveillance Station: works like in BW (available at Command Center; unavialable at Planetary Fortress)
tech requirements: Barracks with Lab attached
Nomad Facility: unlocks Salvage and Faster Floating
tech requirements: Engineering Bay + Factory with Lab attached
Planetary Fortress (technically a building 'evolution'): adds a defensive turret on top of the CC; makes the CC unable to lift off or attach any add-ons
tech requirements: Engineering Bay + Planetary Fortress upgrade at Engineering Bay
edit: ** small corrections
additional corrections
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These kind of threads are why I love theorycrafting :p
Maybenexttime, any reason you don't think lift-off buildings shouldn't incorporate drop pods in some form. Personally, I think giving buildings the ability to store units overlaps with the medivac. Then again one of the issues with drop pods is differentiating it from warp-in. So I can see where you are coming from if thats it.
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The storage is just for newly created units - you wouldn't be able to load them like you do with CC and SCVs.
The reason for introducing a (limited) storage capacity is to offset the negative aspect of relocation time. Currently, in BW this type of strategies are largely unviable due to having to halt unit production - this is too much of a disadvantage, resulting in building relocation working only on a small scale (proxy Barracks or Factory, floating into the enemy's main with a single building, etc.).
If buffed floating speed turns out to solve this problem alone then we can drop being able to produce when lifted altogether.
In other words, buildings wouldn't be used to relocate units - they'd just work sort of analogically to Warp-in (newly produced units only, that is).
As for Drop Pods, I personally like the idea but think it overlaps with Warp-in too much. On the other hand, this mechanic(s) allow for similar mobility but in a completely unique way, and it fits Terran just as much (and WarHammer fans won't whine).
What do you think of the secondary roles I suggested? I think the synergy they require (Barracks + Medivacs; Factories + SCVs; E-Bays + Siege Tanks/any sort of ranged units) add to their uniqueness.
On the other hand, the Lift-off Module allows the enemy to shut those secondary roles down and unable the buildings to lift off in general.
It brings macro to the battlefield, makes it so much more interesting, and yet keeps the whole dynamic balanced.
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On February 02 2009 02:31 maybenexttime wrote:
On the other hand, the Lift-off Module allows the enemy to shut those secondary roles down and unable the buildings to lift off in general.
Your proposal is good but I would perfer if we made it simpler. For instance why do we need the lift-off module? Couldn't I just shoot down the rax?
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It has tons of HP.
The Lift-off Module is there to offset buffed movement speed, unit storage/producing when lifted and secondary roles.
Shooting down (several) 1000+ HP building(s) doesn't sound like the best idea.
So I decided it's best to go the 'diversity but fragility' way.
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On February 02 2009 06:03 maybenexttime wrote:
It has tons of HP.
The Lift-off Module is there to offset buffed movement speed, unit storage/producing when lifted and secondary roles.
Shooting down (several) 1000+ HP building(s) doesn't sound like the best idea.
So I decided it's best to go the 'diversity but fragility' way.
It has allot of HP but if I kill your barracks thats a huge setback.
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Archer is right, your solution is needlessly complicated. Simply reduce armor while floating if buildings are to hard to kill.
Your proposals are quite bold, it would turn the Terran base into a Flotilla. It is interesting and so different I can´t say how that would effect gameplay - what I´d change either way are the needless complications.
Nomad Facility? Salvage changes? Secondary roles for Buildings? Liftoff Modules? Do we REALLY need that?
You changes show a kaskading nature which you definetly need to look out for.
It went a bit like this:
Buildings should be usefull in the air -> can produce while flying -> Need "exit storage" -> needs additional incentive to keep in air -> Secondary functionality -> needs additional weakness to be fair -> Liftoff Module
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I like this idea. What if instead of dropping the ground units below a floating factory or barracks, the units built up inside it like scvs loaded into a cc, and unloaded when the building lands? That way the buildings could lift off and inch forward a bit and then land again periodically to release its units, expanding on the idea of the leapfrogging terran push. Also would give you a bit more macro to do, if you were going to try and push your rally this way.
The problem is, though, that i'm not sure sc2 really encourages leapfrog like movement in any way, so much that i'm not sure moving your rally forward, at least continuously, would even be beneficial in general. I mean with harassment significantly more viable i assume in any matchup, does slow pushing really work? Now it would be interesting if maps commonly provided blocked off areas where you could defend your mobile infrastructure from a choke point, like it was an expansion, and anyway you could use your buildings as blockades obviously, especially for tanks. But still it might be awkward to have them relatively vulnerable in the middle of the map, always needing some defense.
Also, you could salvage your add-ons so that you could rebuild them repeatedly when you needed to land to build tanks.
And i think this shouldn't require an upgrade, thus spicing up terran even more, and that you should be able to load up units into any production building the same way you can already load a cc, perhaps any unit into any production building. Imagine the possibilities: you could lift off a command center and a barracks together to an island for extra scv transfer, you could lift a cc loaded with marines instead of scvs for instant basic defense, or you could even proxy a factory midgame, load it with some units and lift it into a dark corner of an enemy base to produce the rest on site and then salvage it when you're done.
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On February 02 2009 07:10 Unentschieden wrote:
Archer is right, your solution is needlessly complicated. Simply reduce armor while floating if buildings are to hard to kill.
Your proposals are quite bold, it would turn the Terran base into a Flotilla. It is interesting and so different I can´t say how that would effect gameplay - what I´d change either way are the needless complications.
Nomad Facility? Salvage changes? Secondary roles for Buildings? Liftoff Modules? Do we REALLY need that?
You changes show a kaskading nature which you definetly need to look out for.
It went a bit like this:
Buildings should be usefull in the air -> can produce while flying -> Need "exit storage" -> needs additional incentive to keep in air -> Secondary functionality -> needs additional weakness to be fair -> Liftoff Module
I agree.
How about this:
- salvage changes subject to change
- lift-off module out
- Nomad Facility stays - Salvage & Faster Floating are way too useful/strong to be available to the Terran player right away - same as Warp-in or Nydus Network
- instead of Lift-off Modules lifted buildings' armor gets a debuff
- secondary roles stay (not necessarily for all buildings mentioned, probably just for Barracks/Factory/Starport) - there has to be more of an incentive to bring your production structures to the front
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On February 02 2009 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:
there has to be more of an incentive to bring your production structures to the front If this is true than this idea just sucks ass. Forwarding your production line is a nice simple idea and a few features that make this possible for one race is interesting to me. But floating buildings with buff auras is very lame. If we have to try that hard to make the basis of this idea (a slow pushing production line) actually strategically beneficial then i think we need a new basis.
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How is this not simple or lame? ;;
And, no, we're not "trying that hard" - I just wanted to add some damn diversity...
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I can live with making fastfloat and salvage upgrades but I´m not to happy with the Nomad Facillity as it is right now. By your description it´s basically a "sacrificed" Command center.
Random idea: Nomad Facility is a seperate, naturally floating building (immeadiately lifts off when build, can´t land) that is responsible for deconstruction/salvaging (I´d especially love if that wasn´t limited to OWN buildings). That would also justify more than just one.
The advantage of bringing production structures to the front are faster reinforcements. If anything Tech Buildings would need a incentive to be at the front.
If anything give secondary effects to Tech buildings, might even be a incentive to build more than just one of each.
But overall I´m not to insistant on having the Terrans move their buildings close to the Frontlines.(With warp-in you risk a Pylon/Prism, not the gate for example).
Building Addons serve as another incentive NOT to move your Buildings.
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I think the secondary affects are pointless. There's already huge incentives to move your base forward, due to being able to reinforce faster. There's also a draw back of having to rebuild add-ons if you decide you want to produce higher teched units with your flotilla and the fact that your production buildings are more vulnerable of getting wiped out.
I like mechanics simple, yet elegant and deep. I think floating buildings producing units fits the bill pretty well, but cluttering this idea up with secondary effects detracts, not adds to it.
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It seems that almost everyone agrees that the mobile base is a good idea but everyone also has an opinion for how exactly it should work. Instead of us argueing over whether to include or discard little details why doesn't everyone propose their own version and then we can take a consensus for whose is best. So like mine would be:
ArcherofAiur's Mobile Terran Base
-Salvage returns 100% of min/gas.
-Buildings that Lift-off can be produce units which are automatically put in a drop pod.
-Buildings can launch drop pods in a certain range (about the same as a sensor tower).
-Starbase just produces units directly.
-Engineering bay can upgrade in air.
(I am going to fine tune this as I hear more of your ideas and think about it some more.)
By the way all though we are puting our individual names on it we all acknowledge that InRaged gets credit for the mobile base idea. This is just our personal version of it. We put our name on its so you can have a clear TLDR version and I can look at maybenexttime's and decide if it is better then Pendragon's.
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On February 02 2009 12:59 Archerofaiur wrote:
It seems that almost everyone agrees that the mobile base is a good idea but everyone also has an opinion for how exactly it should work. Instead of us argueing over whether to include or discard little details why doesn't everyone propose their own version and then we can take a consensus for whose is best. So like mine would be:
ArcherofAiur's Mobile Terran Base
-Salvage returns 100% of min/gas.
-Buildings that Lift-off can be produce units which are automatically put in a drop pod.
-Buildings can launch drop pods in a certain range (about the same as a sensor tower).
-Starbase just produces units directly.
-Engineering bay can upgrade in air.
(I am going to fine tune this as I hear more of your ideas and think about it some more.)
By the way all though we are puting our individual names on it we all acknowledge that InRaged gets credit for the mobile base idea. This is just our personaly version of it. We put our name on its so you can have a clear TLDR version and I can look at maybenexttime's and decide if it is better then Pendragon's.
That would make the game very micro-intensive. Sounds good.
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How about if salvage gave the % of the health back in terms of resources (with or without any other penalties added)? So if a supply depot that had 200 max health had 100 health at the time of salvaging, it would return 50 minerals.
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Yes, I think that's what everybody assumed, actually. It's common sense and if Blizzard didn't implement it yet I'm sure they will soon. ;]
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It doesn´t have to scale directly. I´d assume you just miss out on the resources you would have spent repairing the building to full, otherwise you´d repair buildings before you salvage them, weird imho.
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imba?
Buildings are like superunits, and if your opponent needs to destroy them, they're royally screwed
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10387 Posts
Here's an idea: bring back the Starbase, but give the Starbase an upgrade that turns it into a flying building that can attack, sort of like the Planetary Fortress upgrade. I call it the Star Fortress
-The Star Fortress upgrade would allow it to attack either air and ground units, and its attack would a cannon that fires 2-3 times.
-It receives an armor upgrade (this might give SOME incentive to actually buy the building armor upgrades) and hp increase, along with a unit redesign and it would become a permanent airborne building.
-It would be able to produce any unit that does not require an add-on
-The Star Fortress can store up to 5 airborne units at a time for quick repairs. Of course, this will cost resources and the Star Fortress cannot produce any units while it is repairing units
-Tentatively, it would cost 200/200 to build and for balance purposes, cost 3-4 supply.
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About increased harassment in SC2, I don't think it will somehow trip this concept, simply because with new ways to harass terran player also have got new ways to counter it.
There is old turrets which can help deal with Vikings/Colossi/Nydus Worm. Terran can sacrifice scouting a bit and get guns for CC. And in addition to the mines there's also those auto-guns, so overall terran player is equipped well to defend back while he pushes forward.
On February 03 2009 08:12 obesechicken13 wrote:
imba?
Buildings are like superunits, and if your opponent needs to destroy them, they're royally screwed
Add-ons are crucial for Terran Unit Production, and they aren't really that tough.
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I wonder how far Blizzard is with the Terran Campaign, because these features would mean a lot of it would have to be tweaked/rewritten.
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On February 04 2009 13:31 Loser777 wrote:
I wonder how far Blizzard is with the Terran Campaign, because these features would mean a lot of it would have to be tweaked/rewritten.
Blizzard is intentionally making the Single player campaign very different from multi-player so the impact should be negligible.
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Terran is meant to be less mobile than other races. Thats why their ground army and units such as siege tank hold so much power when stationary. Protoss pay for their powerful units by their cost, carriers with interceptors, reavers with scarabs, archons, etc all cost shitload in minerals/gas. Being able to lift off their buildings is a huge advantage already, no need for their entire base to mobilize.
Yeah lets give Terran more shit if they weren't overpowered enough in regular broodwar
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Sweden33719 Posts
This isn't regular Broodwar anymore tho, and every other race has gotten 10x more mobile and have anti-tank measures up the wazoo.
I doubt Blizzard would implement this idea straight up, but it'd be nice to see some of these things in there (infact, salvage is already in as most know).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3295/tmbsizeue5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8226/tmbsalvagevp6.jpg)
