On February 06 2009 10:18 Archerofaiur wrote: Nice!
I have to admit when I heard about that rally points autoload I thought this mechanic might be done for. Then you guys posted that we can just make it an add-on and I thought "that will never work" so I spent a day thinking about it and realized "hey wait, that will work." Its actually a great idea. I am going to compile a little more feedback from other sites and then update to 4.0.
Before I do I just want to get your guys opinion on a alternative mechanic from InRaged's Terran Mobile Base (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86992)
ArcherofAiur's Mobile Terran Base 2.0 (inspired by InRaged)
-Barracks that Lift-off can be produce units which are automatically put in a drop pod.
-Barracks can launch drop pods in a certain range (siege tank range? Sensor tower range?).
-Factory can transfrom into Thor.
-Starport that is lifted-off can produce units directly (like the Starbase could).
-Engineering bay can upgrade in air.
How does this compare with our Drop Pod Mechanic?
I'd assumed all along that the Drop Pod thingy would be an addon haha
I think I posted about having the Drop Pod be a Rax addon earlier in this thread and I'm not sure what I think about it.. Having (an option possibly) for units produced to auto-enter the drop pod seems natural but does remove some of the "back to base" of this mechanic.
On the plus side it does make the mechanic more likely to be used a lot (although I imagine it'd be used regardless.
Factory transforming into Thor I like I'm a sucker for anything involving walking buildings!
Oh overall I prefer Drop Pods btw, just because it's simpler, more likely to make it into the game.. And it's cool(er?)
On February 05 2009 13:35 Archerofaiur wrote: I asked on BNet and this was Dustin's answer.
"In the current build you can rally a Barracks into a Bunker or a transport. Units rallied in this way move successfully to the bunker or transport and enter. If the transport is moving, the rallied unit will chase the transport until it catches up and then the rallied unit loads. "
So this does through a monkey wrench in the mechanic. The UI convention is for rally points to autoload so that would mean that you could rally units into a drop pod. Not sure how to deal with this. Anyone have any thoughts?
Ideally, I think we need a base action that includes targeting but in decision making way. Hmmm
We need to come up with as many potential ways to create/launch a Drop Pod as possible. Then choose the best one gameplay wise.
My idea:
Each CC has a Drop Pod socket/slot (1 by default, you can upgrade it to 3 after you reach certain tech; the upgrade could be either at CC, E-Bay or that building you need to reach; it could be either a global or an individual upgrade). You can rally units to the Drop Pod but only when it's already finished (units are rallied to the socket and not the Pod). The enemy would be able to kill already finished Pods. You could launch the Pod anywhere within the Sensor Tower radius (maybe there would be two separate radii or you'd have to transporm the Tower somehow to acccess Pods, whatever works best).
Producing a Drop Pod looks like this:
1) You place the Drop Pod in the socket like you do with add-ons (Planetary Fortress cannot use Drop Pods).
2) When it's finished, you load units into it.
3) The you select pick the destination point. It takes a while, say 5 seconds, for it to reach the point, during which the Sensor Tower can be destroyed, making the Pod not arrive - just like with Nukes. An indicator of a Pod having been launched and of how much time's left could be a countdown texture similar to the one used in Armies of Exigo's Freeze spell.
That's 3 screen changes. You could access Drop Pods through the CC or hotkey them individually, since accessing them via CC wouldn't let you pick specific Pods (pressing the "Launch Drop Pod" hotkey would select Drop Pod #1 unless it wasn't there, then it'd simply select the Pod next in line. you know what I mean).
To differentiate it from the Dropship, it'd only be able to carry small or medium units (infantry, SCVs, Hellions, etc.) but would be able to carry more of them (let's say 2 or 4 more small slots, i.e. 1-2 more Hellions or 2-4 more Marines than a Dropship) . It'd also cost ~50 minerals (+ Tower) to prevent it from being abused early on.
Pros of this implementation:
- solves the issue with rally points - rewards screen changing - adds lots of potential tactics/strategies - improves the infamous Terran Push in an interesting way - allows for various interactions (anticipating and intercepting Drop Pods, proxy Sensor Towers to Drop units in enemy's main from a distance, killing Drop Pods in Terran's base, etc.) - easily balanced
Differences from Warp-In:
- transports already produced units - requires mineral investment - requires build time - limited by number of CC's - "bundles" units in one spot - drop Area much larger than Pylon field - Drop Pods can be killed before they're launched
Differences from the Medivac:
- limited by number of CC's - can be intercepted by destroying the Sensor Tower - the Sensor Tower warns the opponent about an incoming Drop Pod (additionally, it's seen by the opponent on the minimap without the need of LOS) - carries only small or medium units but more of them - cannot re-load the units and transport them further
edit: Seems like armed_ came up with the add-on idea before me. ^___^
On February 06 2009 10:18 Archerofaiur wrote: Nice!
I have to admit when I heard about that rally points autoload I thought this mechanic might be done for. Then you guys posted that we can just make it an add-on and I thought "that will never work" so I spent a day thinking about it and realized "hey wait, that will work." Its actually a great idea. I am going to compile a little more feedback from other sites and then update to 4.0.
Before I do I just want to get your guys opinion on a alternative mechanic from InRaged's Terran Mobile Base (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86992)
ArcherofAiur's Mobile Terran Base 2.0 (inspired by InRaged)
-Barracks that Lift-off can be produce units which are automatically put in a drop pod.
-Barracks can launch drop pods in a certain range (siege tank range? Sensor tower range?).
-Factory can transfrom into Thor.
-Starport that is lifted-off can produce units directly (like the Starbase could).
-Engineering bay can upgrade in air.
How does this compare with our Drop Pod Mechanic?
I'd assumed all along that the Drop Pod thingy would be an addon haha
I think I posted about having the Drop Pod be a Rax addon earlier in this thread and I'm not sure what I think about it.. Having (an option possibly) for units produced to auto-enter the drop pod seems natural but does remove some of the "back to base" of this mechanic.
On the plus side it does make the mechanic more likely to be used a lot (although I imagine it'd be used regardless.
Factory transforming into Thor I like I'm a sucker for anything involving walking buildings!
Oh overall I prefer Drop Pods btw, just because it's simpler, more likely to make it into the game.. And it's cool(er?)
Units rallied to the add-on (I prefer to call them sockets or slots since them and Scans shouldn't be mutually exclusive, imo) would gather around the add-on and not enter the Pod when it's finished (two different entities). On the other hand, units rallied to an already finished Drop Pod would enter it, but at that point you're better off launching the Pod - waiting for rallied units to finish and then enter the Pod would be a massive waste of time. ;]
I think it seems a bit too big. Imagine playing on any map at all, setting up shop in the middle of the map and still be able to drop pods in the middle of the enemy's mineral line. If you spawned next to each other on, for example, python, then you could just build a sensor tower in your main base and start spamming drop pods.
On February 08 2009 16:24 Osmoses wrote: I think it seems a bit too big. Imagine playing on any map at all, setting up shop in the middle of the map and still be able to drop pods in the middle of the enemy's mineral line. If you spawned next to each other on, for example, python, then you could just build a sensor tower in your main base and start spamming drop pods.
To get at their mineral line you would still need to build the tower right outside there front door and they would be able to see it. Sensor towers can be used for this if you can defend them (like if you move your siege line that far) but if you really want to do some mineral harass reapers are the way to go.
You do raise a point about the sensor tower in general. On maps with proximal starting locations your sensor tower could possible see some of the opponents base. I wonder if this could give tech information. Now python is kind of a special map. Not all of the BW maps are going to be balanced in SC2. In this case it is the map more than the mechanic that needs balancing. I can imagine with all the new race features we are going to see allot of factors come into play in map balancing.
I've updated the OP with everyones feedback. Is everyone ok with this version or are there things you think should change? I have started modeling this in the Warcraft 3 editor so speak now or forever hold your peace.
Terran Macro Mechanic: Drop Pods 4.0
-After Engineering Bay a Command Center can build up to 4 Drop Pod Add-ons. Cost and build time are the same as an SCV (50 minerals, 18 seconds).
-Infantry can be ordered into the Drop Pod (5 slots). SCVs, reapers, ghosts, maruaders and marines cound as infantry. Units can be rallied into Drop Pod.
-Player hits launch hotkey and selects drop location. Can drop anywhere within a Sensor Tower's range. The entire Add-on is launched and a new one must be build for it to be used again.
Honestly, even if it won't be directly analogous to SBS it will be better than pure MBS. It's not a BW macro mechanic but it's a macro mechanic if you apply a broader definition. It does give more room for a faster player to benefit AND it helps bring along a type of gameplay that helps alleviate the effects of MBS/automining.
Anyway, it'd work like.. Go back, rally all rax to newly built addon (or go back and enter units into newly built addon), place pods. It'd be possible to just have 1 add-on per rax or something but honestly, then you'd have to do like 1 marine per drop pod.. ? Doesn't that seem kinda, ehhhhh, stupid? Like, I know it's not about realism but .. ONE? ;;
So if you want to be perfect you'd ship a new batch of units as soon as they are done, ie once every 30 seconds. No?
And, let's be honest, Drop Pods are cool Oh and it beats the snot out of the gas mechanic. It's about time terrans get some payback for all those recalls imo.
i dunno what definition of macro you're using, but it is entirely unrelated to bw 'macro', which is whats important here because one of the major concerns with mbs is that it will kill various playstyles as unit production is no longer a time consuming task (so oov will become obsolete)
as far as that is concerned, no mechanic that doesnt directly directly relate time spent on a task to how many new units you have does not solve the problem.
as for the screen changing aspect of the problem, the current version still isnt a good fix because he has it limited to 4 addons per cc. that wont last very long, and it wont be regular useage. if it were unlimited addons and you could do it every 30 seconds or whatever, then ya it would address that part of the problem.
No, this mechanic won't solve the problem, it's merely a neat functionality that might provide a little more depth, filling a small part of the huge macro void which will be left with the implementation of, among other things, MBS. Though even if there were unlimited addons launchable every 30 seconds, it still seems to me that the edge it provides is not good enough to warrant their use if that time could be spent microing instead.
MBS is in SC2, and it is there to stay. I don't think there's even a slight chance of it being removed. So the fact that making units and filling your expansions with workers has become as simple as pressing a couple of hotkeys is something we just can't get around. If we want SC2 to be as fast paced as SC1, Blizzard either needs to keep coming up with more of these small cornerstones or revamp the resource or unit production system greatly. I personally had issues from the get-go with how the minerals were lined up so conveniently along with the gas at the different expansions when I first started playing SC1 in 97. Perhaps this is the time to make resource gathering a bit more realistic/involved? I might make an unpopular thread about it later.
I'm thinking a company of Blizzard's standards probably got dozens of qualified people just sitting around thinking shit like this up, along with their progamer assistants... But seeing as how the best we've heard from them so far was the gay gas-mechanic, I'll admit I'm a little worried. So lets keep brainstorming, one day someone might just get lucky and put forth one of those "holy shit!" ideas. Of course, when that day comes, the idea will most likely be shot down by the community because it will cause SC2 to become "too different" from SC1.
SC1 is good in large part thanks to it's outdated UI. If all the features of SC2 were implemented in SC1, the game would practically play itself. The features are already in. You can't have it both ways. SC2 is not SC1 blah blah.
That being said, whatever Drop Pods do or do not solve, they should still be in the game, because Drop Pods are bitchin.
On February 10 2009 10:58 IdrA wrote: mechanic that doesnt directly directly relate time spent on a task to how many new units
Idra brings up a good point. The BW macro system is structured so that by completing tasks you gain new units. However, Single Building Selecting alone does not give you new units. Single building selection merly gives you access to the production slot. To explain better lets use the "Macro Cake Analogy"
Macro Cake Analogy
In Starcraft when you want to make a cake (unit) you first need to get your ingrediants. You must gather some flour (minerals), eggs (gas), and sugar (supply). You then mix (camera shift, selection and hotkey) these three things together in a pan (production slot).
Now Starcraft 2 has automated the mixing. What the Drop Pod mechanic allows you do to is mix (camera shift, hotkey and add-on placement) up some frosting (Teleportation) after the cake is made. And really, who doesn't like frosting?
i said its a problem that this has nothing to do with how many new units you're getting. making a pointless analogy doesnt change that. im aware it does partially fix some of the problems, i said that in my last post. but it doesnt deal with one of the biggest problems with the whole thing.
Well, if you want I am all for exploring macro mechanics that give production advantage for camera shift and targeting tasks. However I would like to stay focused on Drop Pods for this thread. Feel free to make a new thread if you have some cool ideas.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't want to sidetrack the thread.
On February 10 2009 14:22 IdrA wrote: only being allowed to select one building at a time?
i refuse to theorycraft half assed solutions to a problem that shouldnt even exist.
i really hate it when people edit content of their post you asked me if i had any suggestions.
But you realize that's basically saying "I'm gonna sit on my ass until beta and pray that they'll actually remove MBS if they need to"?
I mean, I'm pretty sure removing MBS is like their last, last, last, LAST hope solution and that they'd exhaust every other alternative before doing so.
Furthermore, the stylistic differences should be able to come from gameplay choices, no? Playing an aggressive style vs a more passive style should just both be viable options, the BoxeR players go for one style, the macro players another - it wasn't 4sz5sz6sz etc that made YellOw different from Starcraft_Side, nor BoxeR from Oov -_-
Oov players wouldn't be gone, they'd just have their drop pods @ the frontlines / defending their expansions with zero delay for every production cycle, while the micro player wouldn't. Maybe it wouldn't be the same different styles but it's not the same game.. And honestly, I know we've been over this already, but there really aren't a whole lot of stylistic differences anymore.. Not big ones anyway.
And as Osmoses said, even if it's not a perfect solution, it should be in the game because it's worth having on its own merits - regardless of macro benefits, of which there are plenty (ie largely provides screen switching type multitasking).
until i see something that seems to suit the purpose i will indeed be counting on them removing the easy mode features during beta. i dont see it as that big a leap of faith since they havent had any competent players play testing it yet and so havent gotten real feedback from people they can believe. when the top 50 people in the beta ladder are telling them theres a problem theyll listen. now, theyre free to experiment.
the fact that there arent many stylistic differences anymore, and that people dont really like that, should just encourage us all the more to aim for creating room for those differences in sc2. ive never said drop pods shouldnt be in the game, im just saying it shouldnt be called a macro mechanic and shouldnt be considered a solution for mbs.
On February 10 2009 10:24 IdrA wrote: this will do nothing to replace real macro, where you have to go back and do stuff every 30 seconds. 4 times per cc max?
also why is it called a macro mechanic, it has nothing to do with unit production
You have some pretty narrow-minded idea of macro.
In BW, macro consists of various tasks, such as: unit production, building structures, expanding, researching upgrades, etc. You seem to consider only the mechanical, strictly related to unit production and/or improving one's economy tasks as "macro."
What we're trying to do here is coming up with a set of macro mechanics (be it unit production, placing structures, economy management or pretty much any base related task that requires player's attention) which on their own are not as attention demanding, but combined can replace the attention requirements of SBS/manual-mining macro from BW.
Additionally, there have been suggested several mechanics that try to mimic manual-mining is a way, while removing any "mindless APM" and adding to the game's depth in some way. An example of that could by the Mineral Mechanic by myself & FrozenArbiter.
On February 10 2009 10:58 IdrA wrote: i dunno what definition of macro you're using, but it is entirely unrelated to bw 'macro', which is whats important here because one of the major concerns with mbs is that it will kill various playstyles as unit production is no longer a time consuming task (so oov will become obsolete)
as far as that is concerned, no mechanic that doesnt directly directly relate time spent on a task to how many new units you have does not solve the problem.
as for the screen changing aspect of the problem, the current version still isnt a good fix because he has it limited to 4 addons per cc. that wont last very long, and it wont be regular useage. if it were unlimited addons and you could do it every 30 seconds or whatever, then ya it would address that part of the problem.
I'd say that the biggest problem is that you can macro remotely - not that you can produce units remotely.
Imagine that you place Drop Pods like add-ons. This solves imo the biggest problem with SC2 macro - the fact that it does not require player's attention, leading ti differences in playstyle. This is why this mechanic would require attention:
1) You need to build Sensor Towers in places you want your Drop Pods to have access to (frontlines for reinforcements, island and regular expansions - for safer SCV transportation and reinforcements and in main).
2) You need to manually place Drop Pod "add-ons" (and do something else while they're being built)
3) You have to load units into the Pods.
4) You have to pick the destination point within the Sensor Tower network.
5) You need to constatly repair and/or rebuild your Sensor Towers and expand your network.
This definitely does require attention. And it can be used in many ways, with varying degree of involvement, leading to different playstyles.
Maybe this mechanic isn't necessarily connected to unit production (although it can be), it definitely is a macro task that requires attention, and it DOES influence the number of units you can produce - just indirectly (e.g. you can claim/defend expansions thanks to it or transfer workers mroe safely, etc.) Also, what stops Blizzard from implementing this AND a mechanic that mimics manual-mining (like the Mineral Mechanic).
I love this idea. This mechanic would bring a new level of strategy to the game. My question is how long would it take from when you initiated the drop pod take off untill your troops have arrived on the battlefield. Depending upon how long your troops are tied up I believe this ability can be very useful. As such I think it should be given a fairly high resource cost.
EPT
I'm a sucker for anything involving walking buildings!
? Doesn't that seem kinda, ehhhhh, stupid? Like, I know it's not about realism but .. ONE? ;;
