Now, that discussion about macro have ended and everyone knows that it must come back. I bring a new topic to discuss. I Asked Some TLStaff that played sc2 at blizzon if he tried old sc tricks like hold/patrol some random units to see what they can do, and he answered:
I tried a lot of it, and for the most part the difference was negligible. I felt that focus fire responded slightly faster than hold, but it could just be me. (Focus Fire= just like going a+click on unit to attack, just like it was in BW)
2) Hold position and Patrol are still there, just that the vulture trick (and the other related tricks) are no longer presented from what i can tell.
Ki_Do, I used Hellions (replacement for vultures) and used the hold command to kite units while firing, It felt very right
We all know the game is far from beta, but there are somethings that HAVE to come back, with no discussion about it. Some old unit mechanics like using patrol with air units, or with the hellion for example (like mutas or banshees or phoenix) SHOULD make them attack like wraiths and corsairs(or vulture) in brood war. Using Hold with stalkers,immortals, tanks,hydras, marauders for example SHOULD make them attack like dragoons,Hydras, tanks in Brood war... But what it seems now is that only a few units have this kind of micro. If we check Yellow vs Sonkie at blizzcon , we can see that Yellow at some point will micro his stalkers like a wc3 unit by moving wounded ones back in the line, well, goons are microed like that too but... i dont think we want to see sc2 micro become so tedious. coments~
The tricks originate from glitches in the engine, something which this newer engine obviously lacks. Glitches may or may not be present within this engine, but they will undoubtedly be different to the ones in sc.
How-ever if they can screw everything else with automine, gas mechanics and mbs i think they can screw the game engine to allow this too... at least...
Hold button? They should just fix the bug and make any command as unbugged as the hold button in SC. All commands should be totally accurate and responsive.
That's the issue. Commands were slightly bugged and therefore delayed. This is one of the big reasons to even make SC2. To make unit control even better because it clearly wasn't perfect. And one doesn't even have to mention the delay on bnet.
But problem is, Blizzard is just on the wrong track right now. They think they are prioritizing esports. But they don't seem to really know what that means.
On October 16 2008 22:22 Ki_Do wrote: How-ever if they can screw everything else with automine, gas mechanics and mbs i think they can screw the game engine to allow this too... at least...
On October 16 2008 22:24 BlackStar wrote: Hold button? They should just fix the bug and make any command as unbugged as the hold button in SC. All commands should be totally accurate and responsive.
That's the issue. Commands were slightly bugged and therefore delayed. This is one of the big reasons to even make SC2. To make unit control even better because it clearly wasn't perfect. And one doesn't even have to mention the delay on bnet.
But problem is, Blizzard is just on the wrong track right now. They think they are prioritizing esports. But they don't seem to really know what that means.
The Problem is exactly that... those bugs/glitches should be now reprogrammed into features and added to sc2, its one of the points that made the game the superior lvl rts, just compare wc3 pro micro to sc pro micro , witch one makes u have orgasms? what elements make this micro so good? Mechanic elements.
I am sure that in time, new glitches/tricks will be found. It just may not be the ones that we are used to in SC/BW. I thought this was obvious. Just saying.
Why not just make some units able to shoot while gliding like the patrol glitch did in starcraft? And the other units reacting instantly when they are told to shoot?
Then you would get the exactly the same micro but no magic buttons like patrol.
On October 16 2008 22:19 Plexa wrote: The tricks originate from glitches in the engine, something which this newer engine obviously lacks. Glitches may or may not be present within this engine, but they will undoubtedly be different to the ones in sc.
I think part of the draw of BW is that the glitches had to be discovered and then people realized they could master them to gain advantages. This made the game evolve a lot over time as more tricks were discovered and people learned from each other. I'm hesitant to demand that many of the mechanics be replicated because then SC2 won't undergo the same evolution SC did. My only concern is that, of course, SC2 won't have ANY glitches at all, whether intentional or not. It just kind of feels silly if they purposely code in a glitch so that it might be used for micro (because then they aren't really glitches!) .... part of what made micro tricks cool was the fact that they were glitches to begin with.
On October 16 2008 23:10 Klockan3 wrote: Why not just make some units able to shoot while gliding like the patrol glitch did in starcraft? And the other units reacting instantly when they are told to shoot?
Then you would get the exactly the same micro but no magic buttons like patrol.
On October 16 2008 23:25 SWPIGWANG wrote: Rocket Jump was a glitch in Quake1, but afterwards it has always been part of the design....... go figure...
Anyways, I don't think SC2 need glitches, just responsive controls that gets better with skill.
Yeah, glitches can often become standard gameplay features. "Bunnyhopping" and all forms of trickjumping would also fit the description.
Another example would be 'skiing' from the Tribes games, which originally wasn't an intended feature at all, but since the playerbase widely embraced the mechanic, to such a degree that it became one of the core and defining gameplay features even, naturally the sequels that followed took this to heart and built the games around it.
Blizz has already taken steps to implent muta micro into SC2, and I really hope that means that other forms of seamless move-shooting will be possible on units fitting the idea. And Hold Lurkers (even if it doesn't come into play the same way as in SC due to unit changes).
let me give u some examples; have anyone here played Grand Chase? OR The Duel? Or Kart Rider? they are korean games, both have glitches that modified the way ppl played the game ask some korean (resident in 한군) these glitches , a.k.a dashes are: mushindon, shindonshedou, bleach,fake,backspell,area rubbin half-step,half-halt-step, quickslash, slashshot, quickmed, butterfly,d-butterfly, instakill, mid-air-step... For kartrider we got some 'glitches' very known among race games players that allow u to get boosts on curves and at the start of the game Now lets compare these korean games with starcraft. "The glitches" atm, everybody here likes these special moves. everybody here knows how to patrol-vultures and stack mutalisks. everybody here can dance goons( not matter if perfect or not) starcraft success -specially in korea-, isnt only because its balanced... Its because its interactivity with the player, it allowed the players to discover things, it made the game live for years... once ppl discovered that vultures could fire while moving, ppl wanted to see what more that game had to offer. what we have to do is, we "the ones who play the game" , have to start asking blizzard for it(and some other things) again, no matter if its in spam at the blizzard forums, or threads in gg,tl,sc2gg whatever .com or dot.net
On October 16 2008 22:24 BlackStar wrote: Hold button? They should just fix the bug and make any command as unbugged as the hold button in SC. All commands should be totally accurate and responsive.
That's the issue. Commands were slightly bugged and therefore delayed. This is one of the big reasons to even make SC2. To make unit control even better because it clearly wasn't perfect. And one doesn't even have to mention the delay on bnet.
But problem is, Blizzard is just on the wrong track right now. They think they are prioritizing esports. But they don't seem to really know what that means.
The Problem is exactly that... those bugs/glitches should be now reprogrammed into features and added to sc2, its one of the points that made the game the superior lvl rts, just compare wc3 pro micro to sc pro micro , witch one makes u have orgasms? what elements make this micro so good? Mechanic elements.
Idk sometimes surrounding and sniping the blademaster can be kinda sexy.
All jokes aside though I enjoyed making games of 100 zealots vs. 1 vulture. (I have no life)
look at what i've found: gamereplays.org sc2 homepage
Starcraft 2 Beta: "Not this year"
"Touching upon gameplay briefly, Chris used air units as an example of how their ex-pro gamers were used to help tune the gameplay to make sure things like Mutalisk micromanagement and kiting felt as responsive and rewarding as it does in Starcraft. To help players learn these more advanced control techniques, as well as basic gameplay concepts, a tutorial system that exists as a separate environment from the normal singleplayer skirmish and campaign will be used to get newer players ready for online play."
On October 17 2008 00:45 Ki_Do wrote: look at what i've found: gamereplays.org sc2 homepage
Starcraft 2 Beta: "Not this year"
"Touching upon gameplay briefly, Chris used air units as an example of how their ex-pro gamers were used to help tune the gameplay to make sure things like Mutalisk micromanagement and kiting felt as responsive and rewarding as it does in Starcraft. To help players learn these more advanced control techniques, as well as basic gameplay concepts, a tutorial system that exists as a separate environment from the normal singleplayer skirmish and campaign will be used to get newer players ready for online play."
It´s a good find but it underlines a few counterarguments to your proposal: Mechanics/control needs to be transparent. If added functionality is needed it should be a documented (and thought in the tutoriual) control feature, not a "secret". They at one point had a "Hold Fire" button in (maybe still have) that would have changed the way invisible units (especially Lurkers) would work.
Bugs/Glitches frustrate thouse that don´t know about them and raise questions of legallity - all the ones you talked about are "official".
That'ss exactly how I felt about it. The Hellion's attacks were definitely not a bug, but a firing mechanic you could tell was definitely implemented on purpose. The programmers wanted to keep the "hit and run" mechanic alive, but instead of making it glitchy, they made it a part of the game. So because it looks and feels smoother, perhaps some people didn't realize it worked. As a side note, I also played zerg, and mutalisks stack on top of each other if you right click the same spot several times, just like in SC1. (Without the aid of an overlord!)
On October 17 2008 08:42 Ki_Do wrote: =D if you all want this kind of micro again raise your hands =D
\o/
ok, ok lets hope blizzard will read this thread and sc2 will have these unit mechanics back
Dude, stop acting like you have some sort of unspoken support among the community. What does blizzard have to gain by forcing you to use PAtrol for mutalisks, and Hold position for Stalkers?
Their reaction/attack speed should be something that is predictable, consistent, and independant from what command you give them. What reason is there to make hold position fire faster? These are bugs, and as much as they make SC1 amazing, they aren't good things.
The units should react like they do when you patrol mutalisks or hold position dragoons, but they should do it by design. It shouldn't matter what command you give them. The engine shouldn't be limited by obscure bugs and coding errors.
Keep the unit micro abilities, but design their natural AI and response times naturally, not by using different commands or bugs.
On October 17 2008 01:39 SaharaDrac wrote: That'ss exactly how I felt about it. The Hellion's attacks were definitely not a bug, but a firing mechanic you could tell was definitely implemented on purpose. The programmers wanted to keep the "hit and run" mechanic alive, but instead of making it glitchy, they made it a part of the game. So because it looks and feels smoother, perhaps some people didn't realize it worked. As a side note, I also played zerg, and mutalisks stack on top of each other if you right click the same spot several times, just like in SC1. (Without the aid of an overlord!)
When you say hit-n-run, do you mean the helions could do something similiar to this:
Or just regular shoot->move away->shoot? Also, vultures can shoot while moving forward like air units pretty much, without stopping. Can jackals do this? I heard the warpray can move while shooting but I 'm not sure if it requires any micro or not?
That is, I think I heard someone say the attack isn't interrupted while moving but does that mean the unit will automatically keep up with the unit it's attacking, never slowing down, or do you have to manually make sure it doesn't fall out of range if you want the attack to be continuous?
I added [QUOTE ] [/QUOTE ] instead of the citation marks to make the OP easier to read, hope you don't mind (I actually am not sure what the rules are like about editing people's posts)..
EPT
thats game play 
