Most spells in Starcraft 1 are combat spells like psi storm, which is not used unless within active combat. In starcraft two a new set of spells that effects the economy (morphalisk) or is often used outside of combat in general (spider mines) is an new and exciting path to different sorts of macro.
The advantage of spell-based macro is in the following: 1. The time intensity of macro (much player need to pay attention to base) can be tweaked by the amount of max energy/cooldown of the castors. To more max energy, the less the player need to pay attention to the castors before they overfill. 2. The level of influence of macro can be controlled by the power of the spells themselves. 3. The effect of macro is far more interesting if the spell casters have a wide pool of spells. 4. Spell effects can be made easily visible to an observer, more so than gateway utilization percentage. 5. The mechanism already exists in the game and does not require completely new concepts and engine changes. 6. Macro requirement can be made into a choice so players can use strategy that avoid using non-combat castors if they dislike macro. 7. As far as I know, there is no widespread call to remove spell casting and proposals from all levels of gamers ask for more abilities.
Now, Concrete examples I. Zerg The Zerg Queen unit, being the manager of the hive clustor, is the unit that has non-combat spells. However, currently the spells don't really scale much and need to be modified a bit.
1. Give Hatchery Energy which acts like "shield battery for Queens" where it recharges Queen energy. Give the hatch a low max energy of something like 50 max energy. 2. Queen will have abilities like morphalisk, swarm clutch, creep tumor, Transfusion, swarm infestation, deep tunnel. All will cost more energy (even if it didn't), adjusted for the now greater mana pool. 3. Allow extra Queens to be build upon hive tech, one queen per lair/hive building.
What this means is that Queens will have to constantly travel between hatchery to hatchery (tending the cluster) to get the most out of the energy from the hatchery. Since the spells varies in use, the use of the hatchery/queen energy will differentiate different strategy. This fits both the lore of the queen and gives adds strategy in both energy management, base layout and queen movement routes.
---- II. Terran Terran have highly independent buildings so the Zerg model does not work. However, the Terran already have the Nomad, which is a non-combat caster and one simply need to make it accessible and vital to make macro an important part of the game.
1. Nomad no long require tech lab. However, detection is an upgrade at tech lab and will take energy. (like wraith cloak) 2. Auto-Turret will now take energy. Auto-Turret resource cost dropped. 3. Spider mine expire after 120 seconds. Spider mine activation range 6, hp 30 light. 4. Nomad max energy is 50. Gets upgraded to 150 after a long upgrade. (~210 seconds)
What this means is that nomad will have to be constantly casting new defenses (every 50 seconds or less) to be fully efficient, as it can no longer accmulate a ton of energy. Now by making the nomad defenses strong, it would make the nomad an vital part of the slow push and base defense which fits the terran style while giving it an unique niche. The limitation on detection makes energy management more important and prevents swarms of Nomad nullifying cloaking.
Of course, Nomad is just one unit and within the terran arsonal there are other units that'd fit the role. In this case we call for the reaper which was considered lackluster previously.
1. Upgrade at armory of command detonated charges for the reaper. It will have linked cooldown with existing D-8 charges. It is cloaked and burrowed, has 10hp, does 20+20 damage upon command to detonate. It will take 15 seconds to arm. It does not track and will only hit units directly above it in a medium splash radius, and it has 1 sight range.
This means the reaper will have the additional role of maintaining map control and setting traps left and right like the old vulture. This is a spell that would likely be constantly used (it is free after all) and act as an aggressive APM sink. Bad players that lacks the APM will waste some mines while the cooldown finish. ----- III.Protoss Protoss lacks non-combat casters as it stands how, and its focused and well defined army means there is no obvious use to put the abilities onto. However the protoss psi matrix does offer lore justification for all sorts of abilities within a protoss base. Here is my tentative suggestion:
1. Nexus gains energy, capped at 40. It gains the following spells: "WarpTime": Accelerate the time of the single target, which includes everything from movement, attack, energy regen rates or build times (for buildings) by 30% by 60 seconds for 40 energy "Channel": Can be used to transfer energy to other Nexus or mothership. Unlimited range. "Cloaking field": Target a pylon within range. The pylon will than project a cloaking field for 1 energy per second after a initial cost of 20 energy.
2. Pylon gains ability "Drain" which converts its own shield to the energy of the Nexus (closest Nexus while under pylon field range) at the rate of 50 shield to 1 energy. It drains at the rate of 25 shield per second.
The abilities are researched at Templar Archives (WarpTime), Dark Obliesk (Cloaking Field).
Since warptime is so powerful, managing the energy is critical and good usage allows the protoss player to "hurry" buildings and bluff "hero units" and will constantly force the protoss player to get back to base to use this spell on whatever the strategic gap of the time.
================ All those ideas are just illustrations of how non-combat spells can be made into the game and generate different, interesting dynamics that requires real need to shift focus and control the units directly as opposed to something that is limited due to only hotkey count.
Great post for a first post! First off, welcome to Teamliquid.net
I like the idea, although most of the suggestions are pretty bad (no offense), and are laced with a few problems. For example, the Terran ghost (?) has a passive ability that detects nearby energy. Therefore with your examples, hatcheries / nexus / pylons will all be detected if they have energy, making secret expoes harder.
I like the concept however of non-combat spells! Great post, hope to see some ideas from this
So I get alias/dl danced....from all the way from bnet forums.
Well, I think the registration date can be viewed by the public. This can only mean this is a VAST CONSPIRACY! ----------------
On August 22 2008 13:04 Superiorwolf wrote:....For example, the Terran ghost (?) has a passive ability that detects nearby energy. Therefore with your examples, hatcheries / nexus / pylons will all be detected if they have energy, making secret expoes harder.
By the time Terran gets ghosts, Scan should be up for a while and reapers available so hidden expo should not be possible to someone with game sense. It also depends on just how much sensing range the ghost have, if it ~15 it wouldn't have a drastic effect as one still need to move the unit into the main/expo for it to work and it still won't detect island expo.
As for other problems, some elaboration would be nice. ---- Anyways, I think the take home message isn't the detail, but that there is this alternative avenue for macro to expand that is not as artifcial as interface limits.
I actually find this a very elaborate and relatively good opening post, however the op must be aware that his ideas (the detailed examples) will most likely be disagreed by most people.
Alas, I believe there is potential in the fundamental design idea of introducing different new exotic and race-specific tasks into the base management tasks pool.
Maybe someone will consider his suggestions.
Even if this guy is OakHill, I honestly believe he's evolving and we can see an already more maturely conceived post. Personally, I do not consider him a troll - though that is not for me to judge
I'm re-opening this, not sure who closed it but if you want it re-closed then go ahead I suppose but I didn't find a reason anywhere and I think the thread has some potential.
While the OPs specific examples are just a little too specific given how little we know of the game, I think the thought behind them is good.
Spells that affect your economy (iirc didn't the Tauren Chieftain aura boost the movement speed of all units around it, including workers) isn't a bad idea at all, for instance.
I dunno if this account is OakHill either but since I think it's a good first post, well, it doesn't matter much if it is ?
Hmm. thinking about Terran... Just the Nomad thing wont be able to reproduce the same amount of macro lost... and the Protoss one too... but to be honest, the zerg one is interesting... still dont think that its gonna fix the problem, its just another step in the right direction
On August 23 2008 08:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm re-opening this, not sure who closed it but if you want it re-closed then go ahead I suppose but I didn't find a reason anywhere and I think the thread has some potential.
While the OPs specific examples are just a little too specific given how little we know of the game, I think the thought behind them is good.
Spells that affect your economy (iirc didn't the Tauren Chieftain aura boost the movement speed of all units around it, including workers) isn't a bad idea at all, for instance.
I dunno if this account is OakHill either but since I think it's a good first post, well, it doesn't matter much if it is ?
This is a previously banned user, thats why it was closed. Also he posted a message on the bnet forums stating that he is trying to troll TL with this thread.
I dont really like these ideas, especially for terran - you have to upgrade detection for the nomad??? thats crazy! AND it costs energy??? - Auto-turrets cost energy too! it seems like most of the terran changes are made to weaken the race =O - spider mines expire too, that ssucksssssssss, you cant lay mines at expos anymore to know whether they have expanded, bcause they will disappear regardless, or count on mines to know whether a flank is coming, or mine traps - ~210 seconds for a simple energy upgrade? thats like the length of a weapon/armour upgrade - new spider mines + reaper detonation charges = 2 shitty forms of SC1 spider mines unless i read this wrong or understood it wrong it seems like zerg and toss got some good benefits while terran got some shitty 'auto-turret cost reduced' in exchange for some things i wanted to stay. i dont like these changes/ideas
On August 23 2008 08:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm re-opening this, not sure who closed it but if you want it re-closed then go ahead I suppose but I didn't find a reason anywhere and I think the thread has some potential.
While the OPs specific examples are just a little too specific given how little we know of the game, I think the thought behind them is good.
Spells that affect your economy (iirc didn't the Tauren Chieftain aura boost the movement speed of all units around it, including workers) isn't a bad idea at all, for instance.
I dunno if this account is OakHill either but since I think it's a good first post, well, it doesn't matter much if it is ?
This is a previously banned user, thats why it was closed. Also he posted a message on the bnet forums stating that he is trying to troll TL with this thread.
There is 0 evidence that it's ACTUALLY OakHill + he wasn't banned (I can't unban people - hence whoever closed the thread obviously wasn't convinced it was OakHill).
Secondly, I don't really care if it's OakHill or not as long as the topic generates positive discussion.
On August 23 2008 16:31 EvoChamber wrote: There's this thing called an IP address.
The IP address is not the same as the OakHill account. However, in the Bnet thread he claimed he used a proxy so who knows - I'm not tech savy at all so it's up to someone else on staff to deal with that.
As for those saying "I don't like these ideas" or what not, I think a more productive use for this thread would be to focus on the actual concept and not the specific ideas.
Something that this thread got me thinking about was how it would be interesting to have spells/abilities of units that could influence your economy - ie temporary boosts and what not.
Say like an alternative version of the gas mechanic; have the nomad merge with a refinery boosting its production until it runs out of mana - things like that. I think there are interesting possibilites.
Maybe they won't be exactly macro replacements but they could lead to more diversity in opening builds, or at least more different versions.
On August 23 2008 16:31 EvoChamber wrote: There's this thing called an IP address.
1. If he really was so braindead that he would try using the same IP address, he wouldn't be able to log in because (I'm pretty sure this is how TL.net works) he was IP banned.
On August 23 2008 16:31 EvoChamber wrote: There's this thing called an IP address.
1. If he really was so braindead that he would try using the same IP address, he wouldn't be able to log in because (I'm pretty sure this is how TL.net works) he was IP banned.
I think the ideas are pretty cool. I can't recall ever seeing similar suggestions; it's a pretty new way to think about micro, it seems to me, and also appears to follow Blizzard's own design choices regarding macro (ala vespene gas).
The proposals are not bad mechanics on their own, but they all amount to making macro all about unit and building spell spamming and cooldown managing. There is already one spell spamming, caster heavy, special ability laden, cool down managing Blizzard RTS out, and I really don't want to see that in SC2. The game in its current version is already laden with special abilities as it is.
Blizzard's better off sticking with "warp in" type mechanics if they don't want to stick with the old SC set up than ,rather than vespene or any kind of special abilty spamming.
why is there such a horrible stigma attached to manual production? people are willing to be forced back to their base for artificially contrived actions like base management spells or drilling their geyser deeper, but not for giving orders to produce units?
On August 24 2008 23:18 IdrA wrote: why is there such a horrible stigma attached to manual production? people are willing to be forced back to their base for artificially contrived actions like base management spells or drilling their geyser deeper, but not for giving orders to produce units?
Btw,my feeling about those spells is that, starcraft 2 is fullfiled with it, units have too much spells , and micro and macro action in starcraft is about game mechanics use, with some glitchs being the point that differs starcraft from any other rts. Blizzard should "glitch" some units in sc2, and let the ProGamers discover it,and force some more real macro instead of indirect actions - physical work-
The second issue is extremely important to us. Gas doesnt HAVE to be more interesting, but economy strategy and economy management must be an important part of the game. We have tried at least a dozen different gas systems in the last few months as we have explored what works and doesnt work inside StarCraft game play. We will continue to work on different ideas for a new gas mechanic until we find something that meets our needs or until we discover that all possible solutions are worse than what we currently have. What was shown at WWI was very much a work-in-progress, and while it continues to evolve it is valuable to be able to read forum posts from our fans about what they liked or didnt like in the last build they had a chance to play."
On August 24 2008 23:18 IdrA wrote: why is there such a horrible stigma attached to manual production? people are willing to be forced back to their base for artificially contrived actions like base management spells or drilling their geyser deeper, but not for giving orders to produce units?
This statement is so bloody true it makes me cringe. It seems people are so against the idea of manual production, simply because it's been used in older games and therefore, by evolution or something, must be excluded in a modern game..?
This is a question that's been asked so many times about so many things in SC2 already, but: Why fix something that isn't broken? Why change something that works really well as it is?
Interesting OP. I think it'd be great for Blizzard to test out several of these ideas and see which ones pan out.
The Queen options could be a nice fix for Blizzard's original idea.
I'm a little worried about the Terran options, but they could work if tweaked very carefully. 1. I don't want to see Nomads be weakened too much (I would rather them be combat based) so that they are more easily accessible on the tech tree. But they will have to be nerfed some for balance... maybe your tweaks could work. 2. I think Blizz is avoiding mass spider mines vs Protoss this time around on purpose. Giving infinite mines to reapers sounds like a potentially bad idea... could be overwhelming in some situations. But maybe not... should be tested. [[edit: Whoops, I missed some details. Apparently you have spider mines expiring, so then the mass mines/overwhelmingness wouldn't be a factor. OK, this sounds more balanced already.]]
[[edit 3. I was going to mention that the energy for Nomads actually sounds interesting for one reason. It makes Terran detection different than the other races. Since they already will have scan (energy), it sort of "makes sense" to have energy based detection on the Nomad. I just think it should be very very cheap so that their combat spells are useful still. ]]
The Protoss options are interesting. Despite old shield batteries having energy, the new energy on building options sounds new and fresh. Could be a good thing.
I don't see the occasional cloaking with pylons to be overly powerful, but it could be quite useful here and there. Should be looked into.
Warptime sounds a little too powerful at a glance. Mostly the speeding up of production sounds out of sync with normal Starcraft flow. But then again, it's interesting, and I wouldn't dismiss it outright.
On August 23 2008 08:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm re-opening this, not sure who closed it but if you want it re-closed then go ahead I suppose but I didn't find a reason anywhere and I think the thread has some potential.
While the OPs specific examples are just a little too specific given how little we know of the game, I think the thought behind them is good.
Spells that affect your economy (iirc didn't the Tauren Chieftain aura boost the movement speed of all units around it, including workers) isn't a bad idea at all, for instance.
I dunno if this account is OakHill either but since I think it's a good first post, well, it doesn't matter much if it is ?
This is a previously banned user, thats why it was closed. Also he posted a message on the bnet forums stating that he is trying to troll TL with this thread.
There is 0 evidence that it's ACTUALLY OakHill + he wasn't banned (I can't unban people - hence whoever closed the thread obviously wasn't convinced it was OakHill).
Secondly, I don't really care if it's OakHill or not as long as the topic generates positive discussion.
On August 23 2008 16:31 EvoChamber wrote: There's this thing called an IP address.
The IP address is not the same as the OakHill account. However, in the Bnet thread he claimed he used a proxy so who knows - I'm not tech savy at all so it's up to someone else on staff to deal with that.
As for those saying "I don't like these ideas" or what not, I think a more productive use for this thread would be to focus on the actual concept and not the specific ideas.
Something that this thread got me thinking about was how it would be interesting to have spells/abilities of units that could influence your economy - ie temporary boosts and what not.
Say like an alternative version of the gas mechanic; have the nomad merge with a refinery boosting its production until it runs out of mana - things like that. I think there are interesting possibilites.
Maybe they won't be exactly macro replacements but they could lead to more diversity in opening builds, or at least more different versions.
Very good points that there is no need to concentrate on the specifics. The general ideas are thought provoking. I would not be entirely surprised if Blizzard tried something similar. More things to do, but not 100% necessary, but if you have time you do them, and they are more interesting and new which could be good... or bad, yeah, but hopefully good. Worth a test anyway.
On August 24 2008 15:56 moebius_string wrote: The proposals are not bad mechanics on their own, but they all amount to making macro all about unit and building spell spamming and cooldown managing. There is already one spell spamming, caster heavy, special ability laden, cool down managing Blizzard RTS out, and I really don't want to see that in SC2. The game in its current version is already laden with special abilities as it is.
Blizzard's better off sticking with "warp in" type mechanics if they don't want to stick with the old SC set up than ,rather than vespene or any kind of special abilty spamming.
I think the point of the concept is that from a macro perspective, if you pretend the specials are just buildings that you need to build from, then suddenly you have SBS back. But from a player that likes specials or unit micro, it's suddenly a "less tedious" thing you can do and it doesn't feel like SBS to them. In a way, both types of players win. At least that's what comes across to me. It's still base management, but it's done with more flash.
On August 24 2008 23:18 IdrA wrote: why is there such a horrible stigma attached to manual production? people are willing to be forced back to their base for artificially contrived actions like base management spells or drilling their geyser deeper, but not for giving orders to produce units?
Because noobs do get enough gas from depleted geysers and thus do not have to use it to maximize their income and thus armies. Also noobs like to preserve their resources, they somehow thinks that since minerals are limited and gas endless gas is worth less and thus in their opinion only idiots would trade 100 minerals for 300 gas.
As such the gas mechanig only effects the competetive folks, while sbs forces every single person that ever played the game to macro. That is the difference.
[[edit 3. I was going to mention that the energy for Nomads actually sounds interesting for one reason. It makes Terran detection different than the other races. Since they already will have scan (energy), it sort of "makes sense" to have energy based detection on the Nomad. I just think it should be very very cheap so that their combat spells are useful still.
Hehehe, not sure if I've said this but I've always found the idea of an Alien-style motion scanner sweep thing to be totally sweet..
EPT
