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[D] Non-Combat Spell Casting: a solution to "Macro"

Forum Index > SC2 General
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SWPIGWANG
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada482 Posts
August 22 2008 03:10 GMT
#1
Most spells in Starcraft 1 are combat spells like psi storm, which is not used unless within active combat. In starcraft two a new set of spells that effects the economy (morphalisk) or is often used outside of combat in general (spider mines) is an new and exciting path to different sorts of macro.

The advantage of spell-based macro is in the following:
1. The time intensity of macro (much player need to pay attention to base) can be tweaked by the amount of max energy/cooldown of the castors. To more max energy, the less the player need to pay attention to the castors before they overfill.
2. The level of influence of macro can be controlled by the power of the spells themselves.
3. The effect of macro is far more interesting if the spell casters have a wide pool of spells.
4. Spell effects can be made easily visible to an observer, more so than gateway utilization percentage.
5. The mechanism already exists in the game and does not require completely new concepts and engine changes.
6. Macro requirement can be made into a choice so players can use strategy that avoid using non-combat castors if they dislike macro.
7. As far as I know, there is no widespread call to remove spell casting and proposals from all levels of gamers ask for more abilities.

Now, Concrete examples
I. Zerg
The Zerg Queen unit, being the manager of the hive clustor, is the unit that has non-combat spells. However, currently the spells don't really scale much and need to be modified a bit.

1. Give Hatchery Energy which acts like "shield battery for Queens" where it recharges Queen energy. Give the hatch a low max energy of something like 50 max energy.
2. Queen will have abilities like morphalisk, swarm clutch, creep tumor, Transfusion, swarm infestation, deep tunnel. All will cost more energy (even if it didn't), adjusted for the now greater mana pool.
3. Allow extra Queens to be build upon hive tech, one queen per lair/hive building.

What this means is that Queens will have to constantly travel between hatchery to hatchery (tending the cluster) to get the most out of the energy from the hatchery. Since the spells varies in use, the use of the hatchery/queen energy will differentiate different strategy. This fits both the lore of the queen and gives adds strategy in both energy management, base layout and queen movement routes.

----
II. Terran
Terran have highly independent buildings so the Zerg model does not work. However, the Terran already have the Nomad, which is a non-combat caster and one simply need to make it accessible and vital to make macro an important part of the game.

1. Nomad no long require tech lab. However, detection is an upgrade at tech lab and will take energy. (like wraith cloak)
2. Auto-Turret will now take energy. Auto-Turret resource cost dropped.
3. Spider mine expire after 120 seconds. Spider mine activation range 6, hp 30 light.
4. Nomad max energy is 50. Gets upgraded to 150 after a long upgrade. (~210 seconds)

What this means is that nomad will have to be constantly casting new defenses (every 50 seconds or less) to be fully efficient, as it can no longer accmulate a ton of energy. Now by making the nomad defenses strong, it would make the nomad an vital part of the slow push and base defense which fits the terran style while giving it an unique niche. The limitation on detection makes energy management more important and prevents swarms of Nomad nullifying cloaking.

Of course, Nomad is just one unit and within the terran arsonal there are other units that'd fit the role. In this case we call for the reaper which was considered lackluster previously.

1. Upgrade at armory of command detonated charges for the reaper. It will have linked cooldown with existing D-8 charges. It is cloaked and burrowed, has 10hp, does 20+20 damage upon command to detonate. It will take 15 seconds to arm. It does not track and will only hit units directly above it in a medium splash radius, and it has 1 sight range.

This means the reaper will have the additional role of maintaining map control and setting traps left and right like the old vulture. This is a spell that would likely be constantly used (it is free after all) and act as an aggressive APM sink. Bad players that lacks the APM will waste some mines while the cooldown finish.
-----
III.Protoss
Protoss lacks non-combat casters as it stands how, and its focused and well defined army means there is no obvious use to put the abilities onto. However the protoss psi matrix does offer lore justification for all sorts of abilities within a protoss base. Here is my tentative suggestion:

1. Nexus gains energy, capped at 40.
It gains the following spells:
"WarpTime": Accelerate the time of the single target, which includes everything from movement, attack, energy regen rates or build times (for buildings) by 30% by 60 seconds for 40 energy
"Channel": Can be used to transfer energy to other Nexus or mothership. Unlimited range.
"Cloaking field": Target a pylon within range. The pylon will than project a cloaking field for 1 energy per second after a initial cost of 20 energy.

2. Pylon gains ability "Drain" which converts its own shield to the energy of the Nexus (closest Nexus while under pylon field range) at the rate of 50 shield to 1 energy. It drains at the rate of 25 shield per second.

The abilities are researched at Templar Archives (WarpTime), Dark Obliesk (Cloaking Field).

Since warptime is so powerful, managing the energy is critical and good usage allows the protoss player to "hurry" buildings and bluff "hero units" and will constantly force the protoss player to get back to base to use this spell on whatever the strategic gap of the time.

================
All those ideas are just illustrations of how non-combat spells can be made into the game and generate different, interesting dynamics that requires real need to shift focus and control the units directly as opposed to something that is limited due to only hotkey count.
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 05:14:24
August 22 2008 04:04 GMT
#2
Great post for a first post! First off, welcome to Teamliquid.net

I like the idea, although most of the suggestions are pretty bad (no offense), and are laced with a few problems. For example, the Terran ghost (?) has a passive ability that detects nearby energy. Therefore with your examples, hatcheries / nexus / pylons will all be detected if they have energy, making secret expoes harder.

I like the concept however of non-combat spells! Great post, hope to see some ideas from this
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
August 22 2008 04:29 GMT
#3
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1679340&p=1&#post1679340
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 04:37:25
August 22 2008 04:36 GMT
#4
WHAT?! IT'S OAKHILL?!

-Superiorwolf

(or is it)
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
the_earth
Profile Joined June 2008
Vatican City State11 Posts
August 22 2008 04:38 GMT
#5
The plot thickens...
no saturate
Smurfz
Profile Joined May 2008
United States327 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 05:02:46
August 22 2008 05:00 GMT
#6
On August 22 2008 13:36 Superiorwolf wrote:
WHAT?! IT'S OAKHILL?!

-Superiorwolf

(or is it)


Ozarugold
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
2716 Posts
August 22 2008 05:28 GMT
#7
Seriously, what's up with this Oakhill fiasco? What did I miss?
this is my quote.
XCetron
Profile Joined November 2006
5226 Posts
August 22 2008 05:46 GMT
#8
On August 22 2008 14:28 Ozarugold wrote:
Seriously, what's up with this Oakhill fiasco? What did I miss?


nothing
SWPIGWANG
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada482 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 06:35:16
August 22 2008 06:32 GMT
#9
So I get alias/dl danced....from all the way from bnet forums.

Well, I think the registration date can be viewed by the public. This can only mean this is a VAST CONSPIRACY!
----------------
On August 22 2008 13:04 Superiorwolf wrote:....For example, the Terran ghost (?) has a passive ability that detects nearby energy. Therefore with your examples, hatcheries / nexus / pylons will all be detected if they have energy, making secret expoes harder.

By the time Terran gets ghosts, Scan should be up for a while and reapers available so hidden expo should not be possible to someone with game sense. It also depends on just how much sensing range the ghost have, if it ~15 it wouldn't have a drastic effect as one still need to move the unit into the main/expo for it to work and it still won't detect island expo.

As for other problems, some elaboration would be nice.
----
Anyways, I think the take home message isn't the detail, but that there is this alternative avenue for macro to expand that is not as artifcial as interface limits.
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 10:51:49
August 22 2008 10:50 GMT
#10
Beware, its a trap!
[whatever i dont like these ideas~]
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
fishyjoes
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Germany644 Posts
August 22 2008 12:00 GMT
#11
On August 22 2008 13:29 BlackStar wrote:
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1679340&p=1&#post1679340


HAHA, he's back!
infinite fun: http://dagobah.biz/flash/loituma.swf
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
August 22 2008 12:31 GMT
#12
I'm so sick of Oakhill glad hes banned finally. Is this new guy him again?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
August 22 2008 12:45 GMT
#13
I actually find this a very elaborate and relatively good opening post, however the op must be aware that his ideas (the detailed examples) will most likely be disagreed by most people.

Alas, I believe there is potential in the fundamental design idea of introducing different new exotic and race-specific tasks into the base management tasks pool.

Maybe someone will consider his suggestions.

Even if this guy is OakHill, I honestly believe he's evolving and we can see an already more maturely conceived post. Personally, I do not consider him a troll - though that is not for me to judge
Chuiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
3470 Posts
August 22 2008 13:02 GMT
#14
On August 22 2008 14:28 Ozarugold wrote:
Seriously, what's up with this Oakhill fiasco? What did I miss?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=76875
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=77391
♞
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-22 13:52:59
August 22 2008 13:44 GMT
#15
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.a...mp;t=1679340&p=1&#post1679340

i dont get the point , why some ppl from blizz forums instead of living their lives, just build plans to piss u
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
August 22 2008 23:25 GMT
#16
I'm re-opening this, not sure who closed it but if you want it re-closed then go ahead I suppose but I didn't find a reason anywhere and I think the thread has some potential.

While the OPs specific examples are just a little too specific given how little we know of the game, I think the thought behind them is good.

Spells that affect your economy (iirc didn't the Tauren Chieftain aura boost the movement speed of all units around it, including workers) isn't a bad idea at all, for instance.

I dunno if this account is OakHill either but since I think it's a good first post, well, it doesn't matter much if it is ?
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
gbtTL.net,SCRUBZ
Profile Joined August 2008
2 Posts
August 22 2008 23:33 GMT
#17
good ideas, hopefully blizzard will take note!
RIP Oakhill
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
August 23 2008 00:07 GMT
#18
Hmm. thinking about Terran...
Just the Nomad thing wont be able to reproduce the same amount of macro lost...
and the Protoss one too...
but to be honest, the zerg one is interesting...
still dont think that its gonna fix the problem, its just another step in the right direction
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
OmgIRok
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Taiwan2699 Posts
August 23 2008 01:23 GMT
#19
No one really does this in Brood War, but Ensnaring the peons.
"Wanna join my [combo] clan?" "We play turret d competitively"
Ra.Xor.2
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1784 Posts
August 23 2008 02:27 GMT
#20
The Troll comes back.
#1 Flash Fan
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