EPTGateway buff, warpgate nerf is really cool
Hell of a step in the right direction I never thought I'd see.
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th - Page 7
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
Gateway buff, warpgate nerf is really cool Hell of a step in the right direction I never thought I'd see. | ||
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WSH32
11 Posts
On June 02 2026 05:29 Charoisaur wrote: I think when they were 3 supply they were fine, massing them was really not viable anymore. Then they made them 2 supply again but light, which probably would have been fine too. Then they gave them a random +25 hp buff which turned them OP again. Somehow this is something every balance team does, creating a problem out of nothing and then fixing it with a redesign, instead of just reverting the patch that made it problematic. The most famous example of this was what they did with infested terrans. Let me restate my point more patiently. I admit that the Ghost is a strong unit. My issue is that, in late-game TvZ, the Ghost is currently the only reliable spell-based answer Terran has. The Raven is not very useful in this matchup right now. I have seen people say that the power budget of the Terran army should be reallocated. I am not against that idea in principle. But if that is the direction, then Terran needs real compensation elsewhere, such as bringing back Raven PDD or restoring Seeker Missile damage. You cannot leave Terran with no effective spellcaster in a matchup where Zerg can use both Vipers and Infestors as a late-game spellcaster combination. Another suggestion I have seen is to nerf the Ghost’s basic combat capability. I do not think that is reasonable in the current situation. Ghosts are already mainly effective against light units. Armored units can kill them very quickly if they are caught out of position. So my preferred Ghost change is to make it more of a glass cannon. Keep the Ghost as a Light unit, and let its HP go back from 125 to 100, making it easier to kill if mispositioned. But keep the other core values unchanged: 2 supply and 50 energy Steady Targeting. Also keep the change that Steady Targeting is not cancelled by taking damage while channeling. I think this is a more acceptable compromise. It makes Ghosts more punishable, but still keeps their core role as Terran’s late-game spell-based counterplay. | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2117 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2447 Posts
On June 02 2026 06:38 WSH32 wrote: Let me restate my point more patiently. I admit that the Ghost is a strong unit. My issue is that, in late-game TvZ, the Ghost is currently the only reliable spell-based answer Terran has. The Raven is not very useful in this matchup right now. I have seen people say that the power budget of the Terran army should be reallocated. I am not against that idea in principle. But if that is the direction, then Terran needs real compensation elsewhere, such as bringing back Raven PDD or restoring Seeker Missile damage. You cannot leave Terran with no effective spellcaster in a matchup where Zerg can use both Vipers and Infestors as a late-game spellcaster combination. Another suggestion I have seen is to nerf the Ghost’s basic combat capability. I do not think that is reasonable in the current situation. Ghosts are already mainly effective against light units. Armored units can kill them very quickly if they are caught out of position. So my preferred Ghost change is to make it more of a glass cannon. Keep the Ghost as a Light unit, and let its HP go back from 125 to 100, making it easier to kill if mispositioned. But keep the other core values unchanged: 2 supply and 50 energy Steady Targeting. Also keep the change that Steady Targeting is not cancelled by taking damage while channeling. I think this is a more acceptable compromise. It makes Ghosts more punishable, but still keeps their core role as Terran’s late-game spell-based counterplay. Ghosts don't function like spellcasters in TvZ, though. You might as well call the Cyclone a "spellcaster". If they were built in small to moderate numbers and used with finesse, then they would feel a lot more like they are supposed to, i.e. specialists. Mass ghosts is not only a gameplay fail (like broodwar TvZ mech inevitability but worse), it's a flavour fail. | ||
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BaiZhuZhu
19 Posts
broodwar has survived without balance patches for HISTORY this doesn't make shit feel like more like BW at all | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On June 02 2026 15:21 BaiZhuZhu wrote: it's stupid to make all these changes in a basically 'dead game' broodwar has survived without balance patches for HISTORY this doesn't make shit feel like more like BW at all WC3 has had fairly recent balance and design patches and seen massive improvement for it from new player to the pro scene. It's 8 years older than SC2. | ||
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Agh
United States1098 Posts
On June 02 2026 15:46 Cyro wrote: WC3 has had fairly recent balance and design patches and seen massive improvement for it from new player to the pro scene. It's 8 years older than SC2. It's had quite a few actually, but not without problems. Never forget when they touched it the first time we got the KotG patch. Just wish if they are going to do changes, commit to more and experiment. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
On June 02 2026 12:52 Turbovolver wrote: Ghosts don't function like spellcasters in TvZ, though. You might as well call the Cyclone a "spellcaster". If they were built in small to moderate numbers and used with finesse, then they would feel a lot more like they are supposed to, i.e. specialists. Mass ghosts is not only a gameplay fail (like broodwar TvZ mech inevitability but worse), it's a flavour fail. If you replace Snipe with an AoE spell that also cause oponent unit to be stunned then Terrans dont need mass Ghost. Snipe has becomed an essential tool in TvZ lategame because they have the best chance at punishing retreating Zerg army. Otherwise Zerg can just hit , run back and drop a Fungal to keep Terran from chasing. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18424 Posts
On June 02 2026 19:48 tigera6 wrote: If you replace Snipe with an AoE spell that also cause oponent unit to be stunned then Terrans dont need mass Ghost. Snipe has becomed an essential tool in TvZ lategame because they have the best chance at punishing retreating Zerg army. Otherwise Zerg can just hit , run back and drop a Fungal to keep Terran from chasing. Snipe should be a tool in the anti-Zerg arsenal. Particularly against Ultralisks, but just generally decent vs large bio units. As a counter to vipers and infestors, EMP should be the weapon of choice, not snipe, but snipe should be a decent backup. And then vs the rest of the Zerg army, ghosts should be good, but not the best. It's like how Storm is mostly useless against a mech army. Or fungal alone is kinda pointless, without an army (preferably with lots of banelings or ultras) to back it up. The problem isn't that ghost is a useful unit. It's that endgame TvZ is basically ghosts countering absolutely everything. Why build vikings against broodlords when ghosts do the trick. And why liberators vs lurkers when ghosts do the trick? And in fact, why MMM/hellbats vs small strikeforce of ling/bane when ghosts do the trick. I think the only unit in the Zerg arsenal that ghosts are truly a subpar option against is roaches. And literally everything else in a lategame Terran arsenal destroys roaches without even trying. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3136 Posts
It's not dissimilar to the problem that at one point existed in late-game ZvP where Infestors were gradually buffed to be the main counter every late-game Protoss composition. ZvP late-game got a lot more interesting once Infestors stopped being able to spam out infinite infested terrans with magical purple space missiles. Of course, when one race relies heavily on a single unit, this can make it harder to balance, since dynamics become simpler and there are fewer balance nobs to turn. Probably more important than that, though, is just the sense of frustration it can create, even when it's not imba. I like the Ghost as a unit. I like Snipe in its current cancellable form, and the interesting dynamics it creates in TvZ around retreats and engagements. I don't think making it more of an all-around strong combat unit with Snipe de-emphasized that requires less baby-sitting as it seems we've been going lately is a good idea, though. I tend to think doing the opposite would make more sense; make it a unit that is waaaaay more fragile (but still has good damage) and requires more baby-sitting to be effective so there's a natural cap on how many of them you want to get, i.e. make it more of a traditional spellcaster. Alternatively, you could simply give Snipe a big weakness, like making it not able to hit air. The goal wouldn't be per se to reduce the Ghost's strength, though, as to open up spaces where it's less effective and other things can take over. "Ghosts can't deal with this so I need to build something else." One could argue that the real issue is with Terran late-game in TvZ, with the Ghost as a band-aid making up for the lack of strong alternatives. I think that's true, and understand why Terrans don't want to lose their main tool with nothing to replace it. However, getting away from the Ghost as a one-stop lategame TvZ solution will ultimately benefit the game. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
On June 02 2026 20:55 Acrofales wrote: Snipe should be a tool in the anti-Zerg arsenal. Particularly against Ultralisks, but just generally decent vs large bio units. As a counter to vipers and infestors, EMP should be the weapon of choice, not snipe, but snipe should be a decent backup. And then vs the rest of the Zerg army, ghosts should be good, but not the best. It's like how Storm is mostly useless against a mech army. Or fungal alone is kinda pointless, without an army (preferably with lots of banelings or ultras) to back it up. The problem isn't that ghost is a useful unit. It's that endgame TvZ is basically ghosts countering absolutely everything. Why build vikings against broodlords when ghosts do the trick. And why liberators vs lurkers when ghosts do the trick? And in fact, why MMM/hellbats vs small strikeforce of ling/bane when ghosts do the trick. I think the only unit in the Zerg arsenal that ghosts are truly a subpar option against is roaches. And literally everything else in a lategame Terran arsenal destroys roaches without even trying. Like I said 70% of mass Ghost lategame power coming from Snipe, especially with Cloak. Taking Snipe away and adding something like Maelstrom but only slow down and not stunned, would make Ghost become more of a support unit like other spellcaster. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3136 Posts
On June 03 2026 00:24 tigera6 wrote: Like I said 70% of mass Ghost lategame power coming from Snipe, especially with Cloak. Taking Snipe away and adding something like Maelstrom but only slow down and not stunned, would make Ghost become more of a support unit like other spellcaster. What do you think of the idea of making Snipe unable to target air units? Feels like it would leave the Ghost a powerful unit against Ultras and Lurkers while giving it more of a genuine vulnerability to Broods, Mutas, etc. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
Matrix being a powerful single target spell made it potent in TvP and TvT but basically never see it in TvZ. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27288 Posts
On June 03 2026 02:20 Captain Peabody wrote: What do you think of the idea of making Snipe unable to target air units? Feels like it would leave the Ghost a powerful unit against Ultras and Lurkers while giving it more of a genuine vulnerability to Broods, Mutas, etc. Vibes wise, Ghosts should suck against Ultras, be good against Broods and have some viability against lurkers, for me personally Ghosts using their snipers to target down enemies that also work at range I think is thematically fine Ghosts nuking like multiple tons of Zerg muscle easily in the former of Ultras, silly. Note I said thematically, not balance. Ghost stood be bad against *something* in the Zerg tier 3 Arsenal, and Ultras make a lot more sense to me | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27288 Posts
On June 03 2026 03:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget part of the reason Ghost ended up becoming so strong TvZ is because they gutted the Raven as a spellcaster especially in TvZ. Other than having 1-3 for detection or AA missile, you don't use it as a lategame spellcaster the way you do with any of the other race's spellcasters. Matrix being a powerful single target spell made it potent in TvP and TvT but basically never see it in TvZ. Mass Raven did somewhat suck though The current is very niche, partly with tech lab requirements that cut into medivac and Viking production, hence you only tend to see ravens as part of openers in general and it simply becomes to awkward to integrate them I dunno how you fix that. But I think it would be great if Terrans could more flexibly use ravens, without buffing them all that much. If you could build them from a regular starport (unreactored) provided you have say, an armoury also they probably become way easier to fit in. Not a concrete recommendation, a suggestions They feel a good unit, but awkward. They’ve a lot of theoretical utility but unless you actively open for a few and hope they don’t die, or go super late (and basically only in TvT) they’re an awkward unit to fit in Ravens could be super useful to throughout a game, but you need ravens, and the ability to make them. Almost every other unit in the game if you’ve unlocked it on the tech tree and your buildings don’t get blown up, you can make them. Wanna make ravens you have to actively sac reactors on Starports and in all likelihood you will just die cutting those corners | ||
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NinjaDuckBob
187 Posts
Regarding the Raven's defensive abilities in particular, the PDD never was tested with a particular variable that allows for a detailed level of balance tweaking, the laser's rate of fire. The PDD laser always had a cooldown of 0, meaning it blocks projectiles at an infinite rate. Giving it a cooldown means it can only block a certain amount of projectiles at once, and allows some counterplay with focus-fire and with having all units shoot at once. But PDD doesn't directly provide counterplay against Zerg spellcasters, only against a select few combat units, so it might not be the right ability to fill the gap. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1985 Posts
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ETisME
12858 Posts
On June 03 2026 03:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't forget part of the reason Ghost ended up becoming so strong TvZ is because they gutted the Raven as a spellcaster especially in TvZ. Other than having 1-3 for detection or AA missile, you don't use it as a lategame spellcaster the way you do with any of the other race's spellcasters. Matrix being a powerful single target spell made it potent in TvP and TvT but basically never see it in TvZ. wasn't mass ghost /snipe a thing since WoL? Only reason why raven took over is it did an even better job, easier to land key spells, maneuver and more uses like worker harass etc. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On June 03 2026 04:18 WombaT wrote: Mass Raven did somewhat suck though The current is very niche, partly with tech lab requirements that cut into medivac and Viking production, hence you only tend to see ravens as part of openers in general and it simply becomes to awkward to integrate them I dunno how you fix that. But I think it would be great if Terrans could more flexibly use ravens, without buffing them all that much. If you could build them from a regular starport (unreactored) provided you have say, an armoury also they probably become way easier to fit in. Not a concrete recommendation, a suggestions They feel a good unit, but awkward. They’ve a lot of theoretical utility but unless you actively open for a few and hope they don’t die, or go super late (and basically only in TvT) they’re an awkward unit to fit in Ravens could be super useful to throughout a game, but you need ravens, and the ability to make them. Almost every other unit in the game if you’ve unlocked it on the tech tree and your buildings don’t get blown up, you can make them. Wanna make ravens you have to actively sac reactors on Starports and in all likelihood you will just die cutting those corners I'm not saying to bring mass Ravens back as a go-to strategy, but that the Raven's redesign was an overreaction and went way too much into a niche unit you only get 1-3 of in TvZ. It's the only spellcaster Blizzard decided to design into being a unit you only get 1-2 of (in their words). Making it into such a niche unit means that the Ghost has to fulfill all the "lategame spellcaster" roles in the TvZ matchup. Making it less interesting because instead of having to choose Ghosts or Ravens, or having to get tech to get both or switch between both in the lategame, you simply mass one of them. Maybe if they make Matrix 10 range instead of 9 range, it might see some niche use against Vipers, but since it's only 9 range Vipers can abduct if they come up. And ultimately it's still stronger to just EMP them instead. That said, I don't think disabling units is the best design (even if it is Starcraft-y), and I don't really like anti armor missile either (not very Starcraft-y, overly favors low damage fast firing units, and messed with TvP balance). I much preferred the old Raven and PDD, which was such a Terran-y ability with its positional and defensive capabilities. I always believed they overlooked the true reason why PDD was broken design wise. PDD allowed you to put down just 1 PDD to block 20 projectiles at once. This means that you could put 1 PDD at a time and even if you chase them down across the map or if you try to run away, the Ravens can just drop 1-2 PDD at a time with no commitment. If it was redesigned so that each PDD can only block 2-3 projectiles per second for example, you'd need to put down 10 PDDs if you want to block 20 Corruptors' shots at once, which is a huge energy drain and allows the counterplay of simply backing off until the PDDs expire in 15-20 secs, or re-engage somewhere else. In smaller numbers or in the early to mid game, 1 PDD being able to still block 20 projectiles over 7-10 secs (if able to block only 2-3 projectiles per second) is still significant. If your opponent's army has 20 Stalkers for example, you'd still be reducing their dps by ~15-20% over 7-10 seconds, and the amount of dps reduction decreases as the opponent's army out scales your Raven count unless you commit to massing Ravens which you then drain their energy by being interactive and forcing them to burn PDDs in one place then go attack elsewhere. I always felt what they did to Seeker Missile is silly too. It was an ability that, similar to PDD, you could avoid by backing off or engaging elsewhere. Like a bio army poking a protoss making them burn storms until you commit to a real fight. Then the community said the ability was too useless, so they kept buffing it to the point that it became reasonably realistic to land mass AOE nukes on your opponent (to be fair, progamers always underestimated the damage and often tanked them instead of retreating even if they'd lose some units while being chased down). Then, instead of just realizing they messed up turning it from a zoning ability into a high damage aoe nuke and reverting the buffs, they decided the damage was the issue and changed it to the early versions of AA missile where it still did like 5 damage. Which of course, still got massed because any aoe damage nuke that can be used reliably is incredibly strong in a game like SC2. And then, as if they still didn't realize the issue was the reliable damage and not the amount of damage, they got rid of the damage entirely making it simply reduce your armor.. I feel like this happened to the auto turret too, and many other SC2 changes. Understandably, as the dev/balance team changed over the years, they wouldn't have the full context of how things reached the point it did. But it's still disappointing feeling that patches seem to forget why certain things became broken, and instead of reverting those changes and trying to keep the original concept which worked, they keep straying further from the original vision. On June 03 2026 08:53 ETisME wrote: wasn't mass ghost /snipe a thing since WoL? Only reason why raven took over is it did an even better job, easier to land key spells, maneuver and more uses like worker harass etc. Yes, mass snipe was OP early WoL until MVP showcased it against Nestea in a high visibility Blizzcon match where he evaporated Nestea's ultra/BL army. It got nerfed but was always potent, and as a high damage energy ability that does massive damage we know from history they probably still didn't abuse ghosts enough post-nerfs (probably because they found the Raven to be even more OP). LotV was interesting where snipe had more of a delay, and could be cancelled if they take damage. But ended up doing a lot of damage again, so it became volatile and thus very potent if you can get snipes off. Getting the energy refunded on cancel was a big buff too, it made having the spell cancelable a small downside to doing a lot of damage again after the WoL nerfs. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
On June 03 2026 02:20 Captain Peabody wrote: What do you think of the idea of making Snipe unable to target air units? Feels like it would leave the Ghost a powerful unit against Ultras and Lurkers while giving it more of a genuine vulnerability to Broods, Mutas, etc. I think thats a fine idea, although I havent seen many lategame TvZ where mass Ghost straight up fight against mass BLord, you gotta make enough Thors to fight BLord in most instances. | ||
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