On June 02 2026 05:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2026 01:02 WombaT wrote:On June 02 2026 00:32 WSH32 wrote:On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place) All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything? If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT. Chill out a bit maybe? Ghosts are even a counter of sorts for the viper. I dunno what majority opinion is, from what I gather the ghost is strong but fine for many, it’s too strong specifically massed, and specifically in TvZ. People had the same issue when you could build 10-15 Infestors as part of a lategame comp and counter the majority of Protoss lategame. But people don’t really complain about the Infestor nowadays because it’s been retooled to be good, but disadvantageous to be massed and counter whole comps. I’d personally nerf the Ghost a bit as a combat unit. It’s too strong against lings and banes in limited number. It would make it easier for a Zerg to isolate groups of ghosts that are badly positioned and kill them. As it stands you’ll see plenty of occasions where that happens and the Ghosts kill that threat. Catch Templars, Infestors, Vipers, Disruptors that are out of position and you can usually kill them off or at least trade very well. Catch a group of Ghosts in a TvZ super lategame scenario and they might just tank the hits and kill off what you’ve flanked them with I think when they were 3 supply they were fine, massing them was really not viable anymore. Then they made them 2 supply again but light, which probably would have been fine too. Then they gave them a random +25 hp buff which turned them OP again. Somehow this is something every balance team does, creating a problem out of nothing and then fixing it with a redesign, instead of just reverting the patch that made it problematic. The most famous example of this was what they did with infested terrans.
Let me restate my point more patiently.
I admit that the Ghost is a strong unit. My issue is that, in late-game TvZ, the Ghost is currently the only reliable spell-based answer Terran has. The Raven is not very useful in this matchup right now.
I have seen people say that the power budget of the Terran army should be reallocated. I am not against that idea in principle. But if that is the direction, then Terran needs real compensation elsewhere, such as bringing back Raven PDD or restoring Seeker Missile damage. You cannot leave Terran with no effective spellcaster in a matchup where Zerg can use both Vipers and Infestors as a late-game spellcaster combination.
Another suggestion I have seen is to nerf the Ghost’s basic combat capability. I do not think that is reasonable in the current situation. Ghosts are already mainly effective against light units. Armored units can kill them very quickly if they are caught out of position.
So my preferred Ghost change is to make it more of a glass cannon. Keep the Ghost as a Light unit, and let its HP go back from 125 to 100, making it easier to kill if mispositioned. But keep the other core values unchanged: 2 supply and 50 energy Steady Targeting. Also keep the change that Steady Targeting is not cancelled by taking damage while channeling.
I think this is a more acceptable compromise. It makes Ghosts more punishable, but still keeps their core role as Terran’s late-game spell-based counterplay.
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