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I’d also love to see some changes to TvT. It would be great if pure bio styles were a viable alternative again, instead of every game revolving around Siege Tanks like it does now.
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On May 31 2026 20:30 WSH32 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 09:31 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2026 06:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 05:52 Think13 wrote:
I think they killed the ghost with 75 energy "steady targeting". And 100hp means a steep vulnerability for it. I wouldn't mind reverting the attack and range buffs when these 2 stats are reverted too. That make sense, ghost as Terran's core unit, is the only thing that could have been used to counter Zerg's spell casters. Ghosts should not become stronger as basic combat units. Their role should remain spell-based counterplay. The real problem is 75 energy Steady Targeting, because it directly reduces Ghost spell output and makes Terran much weaker in late-game spell trading. I would much rather keep Ghosts at 2 supply, keep Steady Targeting at 50 energy, install uncancelled steady targeting is necessary, and remove the attack/range buffs if needed. I just don't make sense why the balance council always buff Zerg systematically, given new ability upgrades to infester and hydra, modify attack speed for Brood, change volume of Ultralisk, decrease evolution upgrades cost. Meanwhile nerf either Terran or Protoss in anything, the Libs, Thor, Tank, Ghost, Raven all get nerfed for not only one time, i think this game will be ZergCraft soon. If they keep nerf Terran but buff Zerg, I am gonna quit for sure, and I will post comments in everyplace I could have found, tell anyone who I may tell, do not waste a single second in this game if you are not going to select Zerg to play. So Ghosts should be a pure counter-unit, correct? That means a couple of Cracklings should be able to easily demolish 8-10 Ghosts, yes? Because it is a counter-unit based on their spellcasting-ability. If you don't use their abilities, they should be as useless as HTs, Vipers, Infestors etc. That's the kind of Ghost you want? Excellent, me too! Lets nerf the Ghost! \ o / Or to give the none-snippy reply: You are wondering why Zerg units get upgraded and tweaked so much? Lets just look at them: So Zerg needs Ultralisks, which get countered by Ghosts, then they need Brood Lords, which get countered by Ghosts, they also need Infestors for which the Terran has to counter with Ghosts and of course Zergs desperately need Vipers to force the Terran into producing Ghosts as a counter. ...huh. You think the Ghost can counter everything only because you are bad at using mass Banelings to damage Terran’s economy. Like I said before, the Ghost is the only solution under the current circumstances, because almost every other important Terran unit has been nerfed in multiple times. If you do not want to see Ghosts anymore, okay, then let’s bring back Raven's PDD and restore Seeker Missile damage. You cannot keep numerically nerfing the entire Terran army. Mech is already gone. And I know you Zerg players just love watching Terran players make one mistake in infantry positioning, so mass Lurkers and Ultralisks can wipe out the entire Terran troops in a blink of eye. Do not fucking forget that Marines and Marauders are basic units. They are not designed to counter your high-value advanced units. In short, the Ghost is not strong enough. You suck at ZvT because you are not Serral.
Literally fucking Serral struggles in TvZ because Ghosts are so oppressive.
Here is the thing you are missing: I'm not saying Ghosts are "imba", I'm saying they are oppressive and need to be reworked. I don't mind if that includes buffing something else for Terran, but it would be nice if Terrans would have atleast remember a second hotkey after a certain timelimit...no, I'm being unfair here, but it is just not good game-design when one unit is the counter to everything. Which also proves that none of the Zerg units you complain about are imbalanced, because, again, their counter is one unit. You have to handle four different units as a Zerg (including to squishy spellcasters and one derby flyer who can't be unattended for 2 seconds) together with everything else to counter the Terran army and the Terran counter is...one unit? One T2.5 unit should not counter four different T3-units, that's just not okay. Especially since the unit is somewhat decent against the one logical counter Zerg has: Zerglings. Who have to get through a shitdown of mines, tanks, liberators, marines and marauders to get to the Ghosts.
This week I shoutcasted an older WC3 match. I had a fucking blast explaining how the two army compositions were supposed to counter each other. Because that's the fun you get with good counter-units instead of going "so all of this counters everything the Terran has and this stealthy boi counters the entire Zerg army - everyone on board or was that too complicated?"
And you do know that you can spin the "mistake"-argument in any matchup, right? Don't you Terran players love to throw away six drops just to kill the entire eco with the seventh?
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On May 31 2026 22:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 20:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 09:31 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2026 06:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 05:52 Think13 wrote:
I think they killed the ghost with 75 energy "steady targeting". And 100hp means a steep vulnerability for it. I wouldn't mind reverting the attack and range buffs when these 2 stats are reverted too. That make sense, ghost as Terran's core unit, is the only thing that could have been used to counter Zerg's spell casters. Ghosts should not become stronger as basic combat units. Their role should remain spell-based counterplay. The real problem is 75 energy Steady Targeting, because it directly reduces Ghost spell output and makes Terran much weaker in late-game spell trading. I would much rather keep Ghosts at 2 supply, keep Steady Targeting at 50 energy, install uncancelled steady targeting is necessary, and remove the attack/range buffs if needed. I just don't make sense why the balance council always buff Zerg systematically, given new ability upgrades to infester and hydra, modify attack speed for Brood, change volume of Ultralisk, decrease evolution upgrades cost. Meanwhile nerf either Terran or Protoss in anything, the Libs, Thor, Tank, Ghost, Raven all get nerfed for not only one time, i think this game will be ZergCraft soon. If they keep nerf Terran but buff Zerg, I am gonna quit for sure, and I will post comments in everyplace I could have found, tell anyone who I may tell, do not waste a single second in this game if you are not going to select Zerg to play. So Ghosts should be a pure counter-unit, correct? That means a couple of Cracklings should be able to easily demolish 8-10 Ghosts, yes? Because it is a counter-unit based on their spellcasting-ability. If you don't use their abilities, they should be as useless as HTs, Vipers, Infestors etc. That's the kind of Ghost you want? Excellent, me too! Lets nerf the Ghost! \ o / Or to give the none-snippy reply: You are wondering why Zerg units get upgraded and tweaked so much? Lets just look at them: So Zerg needs Ultralisks, which get countered by Ghosts, then they need Brood Lords, which get countered by Ghosts, they also need Infestors for which the Terran has to counter with Ghosts and of course Zergs desperately need Vipers to force the Terran into producing Ghosts as a counter. ...huh. You think the Ghost can counter everything only because you are bad at using mass Banelings to damage Terran’s economy. Like I said before, the Ghost is the only solution under the current circumstances, because almost every other important Terran unit has been nerfed in multiple times. If you do not want to see Ghosts anymore, okay, then let’s bring back Raven's PDD and restore Seeker Missile damage. You cannot keep numerically nerfing the entire Terran army. Mech is already gone. And I know you Zerg players just love watching Terran players make one mistake in infantry positioning, so mass Lurkers and Ultralisks can wipe out the entire Terran troops in a blink of eye. Do not fucking forget that Marines and Marauders are basic units. They are not designed to counter your high-value advanced units. In short, the Ghost is not strong enough. You suck at ZvT because you are not Serral. Literally fucking Serral struggles in TvZ because Ghosts are so oppressive. Here is the thing you are missing: I'm not saying Ghosts are "imba", I'm saying they are oppressive and need to be reworked. I don't mind if that includes buffing something else for Terran, but it would be nice if Terrans would have atleast remember a second hotkey after a certain timelimit...no, I'm being unfair here, but it is just not good game-design when one unit is the counter to everything. Which also proves that none of the Zerg units you complain about are imbalanced, because, again, their counter is one unit. You have to handle four different units as a Zerg (including to squishy spellcasters and one derby flyer who can't be unattended for 2 seconds) together with everything else to counter the Terran army and the Terran counter is...one unit? One T2.5 unit should not counter four different T3-units, that's just not okay. Especially since the unit is somewhat decent against the one logical counter Zerg has: Zerglings. Who have to get through a shitdown of mines, tanks, liberators, marines and marauders to get to the Ghosts. This week I shoutcasted an older WC3 match. I had a fucking blast explaining how the two army compositions were supposed to counter each other. Because that's the fun you get with good counter-units instead of going "so all of this counters everything the Terran has and this stealthy boi counters the entire Zerg army - everyone on board or was that too complicated?" And you do know that you can spin the "mistake"-argument in any matchup, right? Don't you Terran players love to throw away six drops just to kill the entire eco with the seventh?
Ghost is just a cancer unit that Terrans refuse to admit
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Northern Ireland27288 Posts
On May 31 2026 22:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 20:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 09:31 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2026 06:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 05:52 Think13 wrote:
I think they killed the ghost with 75 energy "steady targeting". And 100hp means a steep vulnerability for it. I wouldn't mind reverting the attack and range buffs when these 2 stats are reverted too. That make sense, ghost as Terran's core unit, is the only thing that could have been used to counter Zerg's spell casters. Ghosts should not become stronger as basic combat units. Their role should remain spell-based counterplay. The real problem is 75 energy Steady Targeting, because it directly reduces Ghost spell output and makes Terran much weaker in late-game spell trading. I would much rather keep Ghosts at 2 supply, keep Steady Targeting at 50 energy, install uncancelled steady targeting is necessary, and remove the attack/range buffs if needed. I just don't make sense why the balance council always buff Zerg systematically, given new ability upgrades to infester and hydra, modify attack speed for Brood, change volume of Ultralisk, decrease evolution upgrades cost. Meanwhile nerf either Terran or Protoss in anything, the Libs, Thor, Tank, Ghost, Raven all get nerfed for not only one time, i think this game will be ZergCraft soon. If they keep nerf Terran but buff Zerg, I am gonna quit for sure, and I will post comments in everyplace I could have found, tell anyone who I may tell, do not waste a single second in this game if you are not going to select Zerg to play. So Ghosts should be a pure counter-unit, correct? That means a couple of Cracklings should be able to easily demolish 8-10 Ghosts, yes? Because it is a counter-unit based on their spellcasting-ability. If you don't use their abilities, they should be as useless as HTs, Vipers, Infestors etc. That's the kind of Ghost you want? Excellent, me too! Lets nerf the Ghost! \ o / Or to give the none-snippy reply: You are wondering why Zerg units get upgraded and tweaked so much? Lets just look at them: So Zerg needs Ultralisks, which get countered by Ghosts, then they need Brood Lords, which get countered by Ghosts, they also need Infestors for which the Terran has to counter with Ghosts and of course Zergs desperately need Vipers to force the Terran into producing Ghosts as a counter. ...huh. You think the Ghost can counter everything only because you are bad at using mass Banelings to damage Terran’s economy. Like I said before, the Ghost is the only solution under the current circumstances, because almost every other important Terran unit has been nerfed in multiple times. If you do not want to see Ghosts anymore, okay, then let’s bring back Raven's PDD and restore Seeker Missile damage. You cannot keep numerically nerfing the entire Terran army. Mech is already gone. And I know you Zerg players just love watching Terran players make one mistake in infantry positioning, so mass Lurkers and Ultralisks can wipe out the entire Terran troops in a blink of eye. Do not fucking forget that Marines and Marauders are basic units. They are not designed to counter your high-value advanced units. In short, the Ghost is not strong enough. You suck at ZvT because you are not Serral. Literally fucking Serral struggles in TvZ because Ghosts are so oppressive. Here is the thing you are missing: I'm not saying Ghosts are "imba", I'm saying they are oppressive and need to be reworked. I don't mind if that includes buffing something else for Terran, but it would be nice if Terrans would have atleast remember a second hotkey after a certain timelimit...no, I'm being unfair here, but it is just not good game-design when one unit is the counter to everything. Which also proves that none of the Zerg units you complain about are imbalanced, because, again, their counter is one unit. You have to handle four different units as a Zerg (including to squishy spellcasters and one derby flyer who can't be unattended for 2 seconds) together with everything else to counter the Terran army and the Terran counter is...one unit? One T2.5 unit should not counter four different T3-units, that's just not okay. Especially since the unit is somewhat decent against the one logical counter Zerg has: Zerglings. Who have to get through a shitdown of mines, tanks, liberators, marines and marauders to get to the Ghosts. This week I shoutcasted an older WC3 match. I had a fucking blast explaining how the two army compositions were supposed to counter each other. Because that's the fun you get with good counter-units instead of going "so all of this counters everything the Terran has and this stealthy boi counters the entire Zerg army - everyone on board or was that too complicated?" And you do know that you can spin the "mistake"-argument in any matchup, right? Don't you Terran players love to throw away six drops just to kill the entire eco with the seventh?
Aye it’s just a feel/vibes thing for me, not a balance thing necessarily.
It’s a Swiss Army knife of a unit that can nuke quite a few of those Zerg heavy hitters, like that just feels off.
The Infestor was similarly tooled at one stage, I think Blizz did a good job in making it viable and useful, but not quite so good against so many different things
If it takes a suite of buffs to go with nerfs to Ghost versatility and Terran overall doesn’t suffer I think it’d be pretty good for the game
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The final step is 6 workers.
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I can't wait for the economy change to go live, I will be playing SC2 again.
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On June 01 2026 13:03 TelecoM wrote:
I can't wait for the economy change to go live, I will be playing SC2 again.
Eli5 the economy change for me please? I was reading the patch notes and it seemed to me like there is not really that much of an increase overall? How do you see this playing out?
On second thought does anyone know a saturated bases mine rate? How much longer does it take a base to mine out now?
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When the game was at 6-8 workers in the past I thought it was the absolute best change ever and made the game entirely different, I guess coming from Brood War it made it a lot more reminiscent of this, in the sense that there was more time to mentally prepare, and it would obviously negate a lot of instant rushes / cheesing, as the economy changes entirely and it would make recovering from said build orders / cheesy strategies a lot more all in, in general.
I am not sure about all of the other changes, I just know that slowing the game down a bit with just 4 less workers, has a drastic impact on the early game build orders, which in turn will influence the pace of the game going forward, making it a bit more fluid and opening up a lot of different build orders / strategies within itself.
I know with this economy change in conjunction with the Spire changes, it will absolutely be making Spire play a lot a lot a lot more powerful, I haven't played SC2 in quite a long time but I am ready to get back into it now just with this change, I think it is going to be pretty monumental in a positive way.
EDIT : after playing on the PTR, obviously the build orders / timings completely change, it will be 14 hatch now instead of 16 I believe to play it out safely, and all other timings for other races will significantly change also, it completely changes the pace of the game and makes it feel a lot more like StarCraft again in my opinion, it's a beautiful thing.
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On May 31 2026 22:50 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2026 22:24 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2026 20:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 09:31 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2026 06:30 WSH32 wrote:On May 31 2026 05:52 Think13 wrote:
I think they killed the ghost with 75 energy "steady targeting". And 100hp means a steep vulnerability for it. I wouldn't mind reverting the attack and range buffs when these 2 stats are reverted too. That make sense, ghost as Terran's core unit, is the only thing that could have been used to counter Zerg's spell casters. Ghosts should not become stronger as basic combat units. Their role should remain spell-based counterplay. The real problem is 75 energy Steady Targeting, because it directly reduces Ghost spell output and makes Terran much weaker in late-game spell trading. I would much rather keep Ghosts at 2 supply, keep Steady Targeting at 50 energy, install uncancelled steady targeting is necessary, and remove the attack/range buffs if needed. I just don't make sense why the balance council always buff Zerg systematically, given new ability upgrades to infester and hydra, modify attack speed for Brood, change volume of Ultralisk, decrease evolution upgrades cost. Meanwhile nerf either Terran or Protoss in anything, the Libs, Thor, Tank, Ghost, Raven all get nerfed for not only one time, i think this game will be ZergCraft soon. If they keep nerf Terran but buff Zerg, I am gonna quit for sure, and I will post comments in everyplace I could have found, tell anyone who I may tell, do not waste a single second in this game if you are not going to select Zerg to play. So Ghosts should be a pure counter-unit, correct? That means a couple of Cracklings should be able to easily demolish 8-10 Ghosts, yes? Because it is a counter-unit based on their spellcasting-ability. If you don't use their abilities, they should be as useless as HTs, Vipers, Infestors etc. That's the kind of Ghost you want? Excellent, me too! Lets nerf the Ghost! \ o / Or to give the none-snippy reply: You are wondering why Zerg units get upgraded and tweaked so much? Lets just look at them: So Zerg needs Ultralisks, which get countered by Ghosts, then they need Brood Lords, which get countered by Ghosts, they also need Infestors for which the Terran has to counter with Ghosts and of course Zergs desperately need Vipers to force the Terran into producing Ghosts as a counter. ...huh. You think the Ghost can counter everything only because you are bad at using mass Banelings to damage Terran’s economy. Like I said before, the Ghost is the only solution under the current circumstances, because almost every other important Terran unit has been nerfed in multiple times. If you do not want to see Ghosts anymore, okay, then let’s bring back Raven's PDD and restore Seeker Missile damage. You cannot keep numerically nerfing the entire Terran army. Mech is already gone. And I know you Zerg players just love watching Terran players make one mistake in infantry positioning, so mass Lurkers and Ultralisks can wipe out the entire Terran troops in a blink of eye. Do not fucking forget that Marines and Marauders are basic units. They are not designed to counter your high-value advanced units. In short, the Ghost is not strong enough. You suck at ZvT because you are not Serral. Literally fucking Serral struggles in TvZ because Ghosts are so oppressive. Here is the thing you are missing: I'm not saying Ghosts are "imba", I'm saying they are oppressive and need to be reworked. I don't mind if that includes buffing something else for Terran, but it would be nice if Terrans would have atleast remember a second hotkey after a certain timelimit...no, I'm being unfair here, but it is just not good game-design when one unit is the counter to everything. Which also proves that none of the Zerg units you complain about are imbalanced, because, again, their counter is one unit. You have to handle four different units as a Zerg (including to squishy spellcasters and one derby flyer who can't be unattended for 2 seconds) together with everything else to counter the Terran army and the Terran counter is...one unit? One T2.5 unit should not counter four different T3-units, that's just not okay. Especially since the unit is somewhat decent against the one logical counter Zerg has: Zerglings. Who have to get through a shitdown of mines, tanks, liberators, marines and marauders to get to the Ghosts. This week I shoutcasted an older WC3 match. I had a fucking blast explaining how the two army compositions were supposed to counter each other. Because that's the fun you get with good counter-units instead of going "so all of this counters everything the Terran has and this stealthy boi counters the entire Zerg army - everyone on board or was that too complicated?" And you do know that you can spin the "mistake"-argument in any matchup, right? Don't you Terran players love to throw away six drops just to kill the entire eco with the seventh? Ghost is just a cancer unit that Terrans refuse to admit
So that is why the balance council always buff zerg?
why they the fucking lurker has fast burrow but seige tank and libs cannot quick transform, if ghost is cancer, so the fucking viper is cancer as well, how could a fucking midsize unit can abduct battlecruiser and thor, that is completely nonsense.
Let me rephrase my point, if ghost needs to be nerfed, then reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile dmg, you just cannot let both of the spell caster units of Terran are sick.
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any idea of when this is supposed to go live? don't want to grind ladder if all these changes are coming
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On June 01 2026 20:56 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
any idea of when this is supposed to go live? don't want to grind ladder if all these changes are coming
Last time it took 4-6 weeks i think and who knows either way what changes will be implemented anyways
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Watching pro players playing protoss on PTR it seems like the new warpgate change boils down to limiting protoss gateway aggression early on and making openings more coin-flip... and then after that just putting a tax on protoss for transforming gateways, which still just seems better for the pro level... which is super disappointing
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On May 31 2026 20:30 WSH32 wrote:
You think the Ghost can counter everything only because you are bad at using mass Banelings to damage Terran’s economy. Like I said before, the Ghost is the only solution under the current circumstances, because almost every other important Terran unit has been nerfed in multiple times. If you do not want to see Ghosts anymore, okay, then let’s bring back Raven's PDD and restore Seeker Missile damage. You cannot keep numerically nerfing the entire Terran army. Mech is already gone. And I know you Zerg players just love watching Terran players make one mistake in infantry positioning, so mass Lurkers and Ultralisks can wipe out the entire Terran troops in a blink of eye. Do not fucking forget that Marines and Marauders are basic units. They are not designed to counter your high-value advanced units. In short, the Ghost is not strong enough. You suck at ZvT because you are not Serral.
Defending ghosts isn't really going to get you anywhere. It's been the strongest unit since day one and will remain that way until its spells are properly tweaked.
EMP needs a cap on both energy and shields. (75/75)
Steady targeting snipes need to stay, allows fungal to be counterplay.
As long as mules are in the game ghost should remain 3 supply. Otherwise 2 is appropriate.
But I'd really like to see mules removed completely since this patch is economy focused. Get rid of mules and give orbitals a 0.2 energy/tick buff along with buffing calldown supply to give an extra 100 hp with +1 armor.
I think all of the above, an additional slight storm nerf, and removal of lurker speed burrow upgrade will improve everyone's enjoyment of the game drastically.
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On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything
Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen.
Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems.
Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing.
On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag?
top tier luolis moment for sure.
;-
Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place)
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On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. Show nested quote +On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place)
All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything?
If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland27288 Posts
On June 02 2026 00:32 WSH32 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place) All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything? If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT.
Chill out a bit maybe?
Ghosts are even a counter of sorts for the viper.
I dunno what majority opinion is, from what I gather the ghost is strong but fine for many, it’s too strong specifically massed, and specifically in TvZ.
People had the same issue when you could build 10-15 Infestors as part of a lategame comp and counter the majority of Protoss lategame. But people don’t really complain about the Infestor nowadays because it’s been retooled to be good, but disadvantageous to be massed and counter whole comps.
I’d personally nerf the Ghost a bit as a combat unit. It’s too strong against lings and banes in limited number. It would make it easier for a Zerg to isolate groups of ghosts that are badly positioned and kill them. As it stands you’ll see plenty of occasions where that happens and the Ghosts kill that threat.
Catch Templars, Infestors, Vipers, Disruptors that are out of position and you can usually kill them off or at least trade very well.
Catch a group of Ghosts in a TvZ super lategame scenario and they might just tank the hits and kill off what you’ve flanked them with
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On June 02 2026 00:32 WSH32 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place) All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything? If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT.
Bro I have no horse in this race and I mostly played terran. I also find zerg to be annoying in its current iteration, but your inability to read that the power budget can be reallocated is probably more annoying. Abduct is also not particularly good for an enemy interaction except for xd wow you should just move better. maybe the viper connects to the unit and can drag it in a direction, and if the enemy clicks the opposite direction they cancel out (kind of becomes a stun in the moment since you have to move click away)
In general i find spellcasting mostly boring except for like situations like bomber seeker missiles on his own units to aoe back in hots. storm was more fun in bw for sure, and disruptors kinda give me the same feeling like a nasty bw storm.
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On June 02 2026 00:32 WSH32 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place) All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything? If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT.
Your super-OP Viper that destroys everything and is so unbalanced literally gets countered by Ghosts. What does that say about Ghosts? :3
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I'm not sure about the eco change.
Based on the PTR games I've played, it feels a bit slow at the start, and the cheese runs I've seen so far don't seem like something that's absolutely necessary. Maybe I'm just not used to it yet.
On the other hand, I like that you don't have to rush for the third base right away.
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On June 02 2026 01:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2026 00:32 WSH32 wrote:On June 02 2026 00:02 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 07:56 Wintex wrote:On May 30 2026 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2026 03:07 seopthi wrote:
Compare the GSL and ASL finals. It is saddening that virtually every SC2 game is 3+bases automatically, that there is this superficial pretentious glorification of macro games, which all really look quite alike. There used to be exciting openings and exciting early games with Has' cheeses or Life's scrappy zergling games. That's all gone.
In the ASL finals we had at least 2 games with workers fighting in the beginning and crazy diversified openings; it is much more colorful Not sure where this misconception comes from that the number of starting workers affects this, maybe everyone thinks of early WoL when they think of 6 worker start? For most of Hots 3+ bases was just as standard as it is today, just watch any INnoVation games from back then. The only difference this change makes is wasting everyones time for the first 2 minutes of the game This is probably just a vibes based take you're having, Charoisaur, but SC2 in general has been friendly to eco games ever since map making wasn't a complete fiesta. There was a ton more diversity in the early parts of the game back then. I don't want to discuss how the efforts of trying to adjust the economy so 3 bases didn't economically cap you kinda shifted the balance of the three ways of playing, but it clearly changed the win conditions significantly. Reducing the early game literally narrows the time actions are possible. Additionally, leaving yourself on fewer bases even for a slight moment puts you so far behind. You're wrong, you just have nostalgia for early WoL which won't come back. Lambo explained it here very well why you're wrong. link This change does nothing except wasting 1 minute of everyones time every game. If you don't remember HotS TvZ anymore, Inno literally played reaper expand into fast 3CC every single TvZ and it was safe against everything Bro I do remember HotS TvZ, my favorite player is Bomber, the guy who went a weird ass marine heavy combat shields build to do a specific mostly safe push that could transition into a longer game. Yes, call it an anecdote, but there were people doing mine drops and hellbat drops for the duration. Safe builds exist, but people constantly mix it up. Calling it all a nostalgia trip is so disingenious. People were professionals even back then, not cavemen. Also Lambo's takes are not necessarily wrong, he just says this is bad because it won't have an effect. The game has been designed to work with the 12 worker start, and by increasing the time people spend with lower economies, a lot more decisions can actually happen in the early stage. The range of maps now is quite a bit more narrow, don't you agree? I'm not gonna defend the really bad maps in WoL, but a lot the maps already in HotS were really friendly for econ builds especially towards the end. I think we can learn from the past and give people both a longer early game, but also make maps that reward good decisions by players in a range of problems. Sure, given enough time, players are gonna figure out good responses and Lambo and you will tell me that you told me so, but LotV builds have often danced around a knife's edge because of the value proposition of aggression being quite punishing. On May 30 2026 20:54 ArtyK wrote:
But what if we gave queens the armored tag? top tier luolis moment for sure. ;- Also ghosts have always been complete demons, a day of reckoning should come similar to the infestors. (nerfs will allow the power budget of the terran army to be reallocated to a better place) All you Zerg motherfuckers just complains ghost OP but never admit the fucking viper is even more OP than ghost, how the fuck that spell can abduct everything and it is an instant cast, dont you fuckers think that abduct counters everything? If you want the ghost get modified, they Terran must reverse Raven's PDD and seeker missile damage as compensate. otherwise, just go to play ZERGCRAFT. Chill out a bit maybe? Ghosts are even a counter of sorts for the viper. I dunno what majority opinion is, from what I gather the ghost is strong but fine for many, it’s too strong specifically massed, and specifically in TvZ. People had the same issue when you could build 10-15 Infestors as part of a lategame comp and counter the majority of Protoss lategame. But people don’t really complain about the Infestor nowadays because it’s been retooled to be good, but disadvantageous to be massed and counter whole comps. I’d personally nerf the Ghost a bit as a combat unit. It’s too strong against lings and banes in limited number. It would make it easier for a Zerg to isolate groups of ghosts that are badly positioned and kill them. As it stands you’ll see plenty of occasions where that happens and the Ghosts kill that threat. Catch Templars, Infestors, Vipers, Disruptors that are out of position and you can usually kill them off or at least trade very well. Catch a group of Ghosts in a TvZ super lategame scenario and they might just tank the hits and kill off what you’ve flanked them with
I think when they were 3 supply they were fine, massing them was really not viable anymore.
Then they made them 2 supply again but light, which probably would have been fine too. Then they gave them a random +25 hp buff which turned them OP again.
Somehow this is something every balance team does, creating a problem out of nothing and then fixing it with a redesign, instead of just reverting the patch that made it problematic. The most famous example of this was what they did with infested terrans.
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EPT
