EPTHow do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for S…
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TL.net Bot
TL.net134 Posts
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MO7AMEDx63
1 Post
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CicadaSC
United States1863 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16038 Posts
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TeamMamba
186 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1228 Posts
The state of zerg is, I think, well put by Reynor's comment at HSC that in ZvP, he throws anything at the wall and hopes something will stick. Both terran and protoss have clear end game compositions to work towards, terran with ghost plus liberator plus X (besides other viable compositions like battle mech) and protoss with virtually any deathball plus infinite storms on end, but Zerg seems reduced to having the exact right composition in the exact right timing window or having to dance around the opponent forever. It's also reflected in the results. Yes, occasionally Solar or Shin will have a good run in the weekly cups, but that's what, one out of ten or fifteen cups with otherwise terran and protoss domination? And yes, Serral and, sometimes, Reynor, can still outplay their opponents in larger tournaments, but even this has become rarer and rarer, probably not only but at least in part because of the patch. But I don't even think balance purely in terms of results is the issue. The overall winrates are not terribly skewed. Rather the playstyles into which zerg is forced seem restrictive, volatile, and unforgiving. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16038 Posts
On February 08 2026 06:11 Antithesis wrote: In my view, the impact has been mostly negative. Zerg feels unsatisfying to watch. The state of zerg is, I think, well put by Reynor's comment at HSC that in ZvP, he throws anything at the wall and hopes something will stick. Both terran and protoss have clear end game compositions to work towards, terran with ghost plus liberator plus X (besides other viable compositions like battle mech) and protoss with virtually any deathball plus infinite storms on end, but Zerg seems reduced to having the exact right composition in the exact right timing window or having to dance around the opponent forever. It's also reflected in the results. Yes, occasionally Solar or Shin will have a good run in the weekly cups, but that's what, one out of ten or fifteen cups with otherwise terran and protoss domination? And yes, Serral and, sometimes, Reynor, can still outplay their opponents in larger tournaments, but even this has become rarer and rarer, probably not only but at least in part because of the patch. But I don't even think balance purely in terms of results is the issue. The overall winrates are not terribly skewed. Rather the playstyles into which zerg is forced seem restrictive, volatile, and unforgiving. That's not due to the last patch though. The last patch was the one that buffed Spire and Banes while nerfing Protoss. Maybe Zerg still isn't in a perfect place but when talking about the impact of specifically the last patch I don't think there's anything to complain about from a Zerg perspective. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1228 Posts
On February 08 2026 06:25 Charoisaur wrote: That's not due to the last patch though. The last patch was the one that buffed Spire and Banes while nerfing Protoss. Maybe Zerg still isn't in a perfect place but when talking about the impact of specifically the last patch I don't think there's anything to complain about from a Zerg perspective. Oh, that's right. Then my post is to be read as a comment on the state of zerg. But I do feel it got worse since the last patch though I cannot put my finger on why. | ||
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TeamMamba
186 Posts
On February 08 2026 06:11 Antithesis wrote: In my view, the impact has been mostly negative. Zerg feels unsatisfying to watch. The state of zerg is, I think, well put by Reynor's comment at HSC that in ZvP, he throws anything at the wall and hopes something will stick. Both terran and protoss have clear end game compositions to work towards, terran with ghost plus liberator plus X (besides other viable compositions like battle mech) and protoss with virtually any deathball plus infinite storms on end, but Zerg seems reduced to having the exact right composition in the exact right timing window or having to dance around the opponent forever. It's also reflected in the results. Yes, occasionally Solar or Shin will have a good run in the weekly cups, but that's what, one out of ten or fifteen cups with otherwise terran and protoss domination? And yes, Serral and, sometimes, Reynor, can still outplay their opponents in larger tournaments, but even this has become rarer and rarer, probably not only but at least in part because of the patch. But I don't even think balance purely in terms of results is the issue. The overall winrates are not terribly skewed. Rather the playstyles into which zerg is forced seem restrictive, volatile, and unforgiving. This is spot on Currently it’s painful to watch Zerg late game since they have no composition. Even if they have 5k bank advantage it usually doesn’t matter since they are unable to break the terran or toss. Zerg either has to win straight up with a huge timing attack or they really need to deal crippling damage mid game But overall ghost lib composition is a joke to watch in all matchup | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa287 Posts
Some thoughts on the problem: 1) Lurkers. I think this unit should never have been added to SC2 - the entire direction it brings zerg mid-lategame is distinctly... not zergy. They also create this painful situation where skytoss "needs" to be strong. They are expensive, powerful, slow, long ranged and useful against all ground armies - which is completely antithetical to the classic zerg playstyles that either involve throwing waves of bodies in the right places until the opponent breaks (like roach max, ling bane) or fast tech switches (can't really afford that after making a dozen lurkers). 2) The systematic removal of every single bit of early game threat zerg has ever had. This one is honestly pretty weird to me. Removes a lot of the mind games (but only from Zerg for some reason, other races can have them). It also means that at pro level, P and T can pretty much always get into the midgame on solid footing in a consistent way. Zerg has no such luxuries, so it is incredibly difficult for an aggressive underdog zerg to make real progress in a tournament with something different (Protoss however...). 3) No lategame win condition on most maps. Protoss and Terran have their god-comps that can handle anything with minor adjustments and slowly, tediously for the victim, grind their way to a win. On maps where Zerg can force a lead of a few extra bases they can still be favored late, but on more splittable maps (which is most 2p maps) watching ghost lib / tempest HT vs Zerg is just depression-fuel. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1398 Posts
Progamers should've never been allowed to design changes to the game. Visual representation of progamers attempting to patch the game: | ||
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jack_less
78 Posts
Overall, it didn't change much. Maybe that's healthier. I thought it was a shame that there were a few trolls in the patch. Like the Ghost changes, which is now just a Ghost buff. on the other hand Microbial Shroud was nerfed too much before we even got to see it in a real game. The tank/Thor got push priority as QoL. Ultra got a compensation nerf. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3477 Posts
But in a more active game where the lvl is higher, if the 4 horsemen of terran (badly forced nickname) were around and at full capacity, I don't think protoss would be the strongest performer at the gsl, were it still around. Libs are weaker though. i think we can say we see less of them now. Cyclone mech vs protoss was removed. Sentry drop allin is gone, oracle mass stasis is gone, these are results of bad changes. Zerg got a bit of power back which is evidently now needed with a now weakened serral. Immortal allins are at their worst, I think, though I do think there's a counter. I don't mind things like anti-micro cloud being more powerful, though it should be said that if you wanted to do an allin vs. sky toss using this, the allin is now weaker. The libs are also just awkward, like most terran units, designed to have OP stats, but janky to control designed to ruin your wrists, like the reaper, cyclone and other mosquito units. Requiring to scan is super tedious, and should be a reserved change for teleporting BCs. If anything the liberator should by its super focus inside the ring, have reduced vision on the unit itself outside of the circle. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3477 Posts
On February 08 2026 00:59 CicadaSC wrote: i saw serral lose which should pretty much never happen so terran a bit too strong after the patch. This is the mindset that made zerg OP in 2019 | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7075 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1398 Posts
I would like the WoL and HotS ladders back though. I paid for them after all... | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1863 Posts
On February 12 2026 16:35 MJG wrote: I sometimes think we'd be better off if the game reverted to the final HotS patch, but with the Swarm Host being replaced by the Lurker. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen. I would like the WoL and HotS ladders back though. I paid for them after all... The raven at the end of hots scares me... I will never forget what innovation and his mech turned terran into vs Zerg. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary486 Posts
On February 12 2026 01:20 Harris1st wrote: I think it's fair having Zerg getting fucked for a few patches after Zerg beeing OP for so long The problem is this might be the last patch and this could be the state SC2 is left forever. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1398 Posts
On February 12 2026 18:46 kajtarp wrote: The problem is this might be the last patch and this could be the state SC2 is left forever. The final full-time Blizzard patch should've been the state that the game was left in forever. But people complained and complained and complained because god forbid the Void Ray have a niche in a match-up; the game being in the most consistently balanced state since release (see Liquipedia stats) meant nothing to the community back then. Now we have neither a balanced game nor a varied one. The community has reaped what it sowed. If this is the state that the game is left in, it's the state that the community deserves. | ||
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Vision_
871 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1258 Posts
On February 12 2026 19:50 Vision_ wrote: you can t balance this kind of game effectively if you didn t reduce the speed for testing it internally That is definetly one of the sentences of all time. If I had to rate it, I would | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3477 Posts
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Think13
Canada1 Post
Ghost +25 hp feels appropriate as it now has "Light" put on it. Other than that it feels good. | ||
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