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4 Posts
Blizzard has released the 5.0.15 balance patch for StarCraft II: official post + patch notes
We are happy to bring 5.0.15 Live, which contains various balance changes, bug fixes, and quality of life improvements. We want to thank all the community contributors who provided valuable feedback during our PTR period.
Zerg
- Spire cost reduced from 200/200 to 150/150.
- Spire build time reduced from 71 seconds to 66 seconds.
- Centrifugal Hooks now give +5 HP bonus to Banelings again.
- Microbial Shroud reduces range attacks by 50% damage.
- Microbial Shroud effect no longer persists for a few seconds after the unit has left the shroud.
- Microbial Shroud cost increased from 75 to 100.
- Microbial Shroud now requires an upgrade again (150/150).
Protoss
- Energy Recharge grant has been reduced from 100 to 50 energy.
- Energy Recharge cooldown reduced from 60 to 45 seconds.
- Mothership movement speed reduced from 2.83 to 2.25.
- Psionic Storm changed from 80 damage over 3 seconds to 140 damage over 6 seconds (26.7 DPS > 23.3 DPS).
- Psionic Storm radius increased from 1.5 to 2.
- Psionic Storm range reduced from 9 to 8.
- Dark Templar Blink attack delay reduced from 0.75 to 0.25.
- Surveillance mode now reveals the Observers.
- Surveillance mode increases vision from 13.75 to 15.
- Purification cooldown reduced from 21.4 seconds to 17 seconds.
- Stasis Ward duration reduced from 170 seconds to 90 seconds.
Terran
- Siege Tank can no longer be abducted when in siege mode.
- Viking cost reduced from 150/75 to 125/75.
- Drilling Claws effectiveness increased from 1.07 to 0.71 seconds.
- Hyperflight Rotors research time decreased to from 100 to 79 seconds.
- Liberator Sight reduced from 10 to 9.
- Ghost supply reduced from 3 to 2.
- Ghost now has light attribute.
Bug Fixes
- Updated Protoss AoE UI indicator.
- Fixed an issue where units with beam attacks would conflate each other's cooldowns.
- Fixed an issue where Probes would become unresponsive near Assimilators.
- Fixed an issue with Cyclone attack upgrade giving +1 instead of +2.
- Fixed an issue with Mothership attacking at max range.
- Fixed an issue with Cyclone Lock-On Cooldown.
- Fixed an issue with Orbital Commands not auto-rallying.
- Fixed an issue where Mothership had a redundant Psionic tag.
- Fixed an issue where Mothership weapon behaved erratically when targeting Changelings.
- Fixed an issue where Mothership was unable to designate and maintain the correct number of targets (4) for target-firing (including during movement).
- Fixed an issue where Mothership's target-acquiring process would cause it to overly-prioritize low-priority targets (such as Larvae).
- Fixed an issue where Mothership's range was less than intended.
- Fixed an issue where units unloaded out of transports would not reset their acquired attack target to the closest unit.
- Fixed an issue where Commands with add-on build would be issued to the same Barracks repeatedly rather than spread out.
- Fixed an issue where hitting the key to construct an add-on twice could result in the production structure lifting when certain settings were used.
- Fixed an issue where "Set Rally" could not be issued if both flying and ground structures were simultaneously selected.
- Fixed an issue where visual effects from abilities could be seen through the fog of war (Parasitic Bomb, Stimpack).
- Fixed an issue where visual effects from abilities could not be seen even when large portions of the model were well within vision range (Guardian Shield, Microbial Shroud).
- Fixed an issue where Disruptors lacked an AoE indicator.
- Fixed an issue where Stasis Wards had no pre-placement visual indicator or sound.
- Fixed an issue where Liberators could designate an attack target while morphing from AG to AA, but not while morphing from AA to AG.
- Fixed an issue where Liberators commanded to siege in areas inside their range could result in slower execution than being commanded to siege outside their range.
- Fixed an issue where the model for Zerg 6x6 rocks was set to be too large for its footprint, and projectiles would not produce flesh squibs.
- Fixed an issue where Ravagers would glide along the ground if told to move command after issuing corrosive bile.
- Fixed an issue where no target impact animation was present for Corrosive Bile.
- Fixed an issue where Broodlings could greatly delay launching or fail to launch toward their target, depending on their position relative to the broodlord.
- Improved Microbial Shroud particle effects for units within the shroud, particularly as certain map lighting could cause bright flashing lights.
- Fixed an issue where players could accidentally drain excess health while attempting to cast Stimpack (It now has a very short cooldown to prevent rapid re-cast).
- Fixed an issue where Cyclones hit by a Lurker spine would instantly go into Lock-On cooldown.
- Fixed an issue where Cyclone Lock-On projectiles would damage targets even if the target had escaped detection before impact.
- Fixed an issue where Contaminate could be cast on targets that could not research or train units (like Creep Tumors).
- Fixed an issue where 'damaged' graphics would not trigger on Rich Refineries/Extractors.
- Fixed an impactful balance issue where Motherships were not playing their coolest available visual animation while constructing. This is intended to buff Protoss visually.
- Updated turning/position visuals for Reapers, Hellions, and Cyclones.
- Fixed an issue where Dark Templar attack sounds would complete regardless of whether a unit had been dealt damage.
- Adjusted smartcast behavior for Caustic Spray and Consume abilities. This is intended to reduce the reliance on 'Rapidfire' settings for optimal use.
- Fixed an issue where Locusts spawned simultaneously would have perfectly synchronized animations rather than behaving like a swarm.
- Fixed an issue where researching Hi-Sec Auto Tracking would not update its level on the icon of units it affected.
- Increased allied push priority for Thors and Siege Tanks. Intended to assist bulky units in pathfinding when surrounded by many small friendly units.
- Fixed an issue where Reaper's rapid regeneration model would persist above its transport.
- Fixed an issue where Siege Tank impact fire model would persist above its target's transport.
- Fixed an issue where Siege Tank impact craters would disappear and reappear if the target was picked up/dropped out of a transport.
- Fixed an issue where Thor's High-Impact weapon made no launch sound.
- Fixed an issue where KD-8 Charge could cause ground units to resemble air units by moving them to a different height plane.
- Fixed an issue where KD-8 Charge knockback animation would persist on units that were no longer being knocked back.
- Added polish to the casting of Microbial Shroud via a short cast finish time.
- Fixed an issue where the rich Assimilators' shield armor icon would not update with shield upgrades.
- Fixed an issue where it was difficult to tell the progression of Lurker spikes underneath clumps of units.
- Fixed an issue where Lurker spine damage was desynced substantially with its visual effects due to the visual spine taking too long to appear.
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man it'd be nice had they at least stated the purpose of the changes (e.g. they find PvZ midgame was too weak for P in pro game so we buff storm, etc.) instead of just churning out patches with no remarks
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Storm is actually better than it was before
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At least it looks playable, unlike the initial proposals.
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Protoss is even more safe now:/ terrans stil have to do all ins
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loved what i saw in patch so far.
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Will be fun seeing how this will play out in the coming weeks
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not having a changelog in the game-client itself is a silly one
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
How long til we have a community mod reverting this?
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First online cup with the new patch and we have 7 1/2 Protoss in top 8, look promising.
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Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise
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On October 01 2025 21:21 tigera6 wrote:
First online cup with the new patch and we have 7 1/2 Protoss in top 8, look promising.
 LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8
Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance?
Clem is only 1/3 a Protoss btw...
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On October 01 2025 21:21 tigera6 wrote:
First online cup with the new patch and we have 7 1/2 Protoss in top 8, look promising.
lots more top protoss play than zerg or terran, you can look at noteable signups list on liquipedia... everyone knows protoss dominate weekly cups along with clem and well... this looks about what you would expect any patch. get serral and reynor and everyone else in there and then maybe we can have a discussion about balance. Also, i will note it is still early, so even then idk if i would even buy that. meta def gotta settle on this one.
For me, i think after RSL season 3 i will have a much better picture on the state of this patch.
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The idea that Serral and Reynor are the only Zergs relevant for balance (and that the near absence of the race from smaller cups is not relevant) is an... interesting one.
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Zerg will be crazy this patch. 40 hp Banes that smash Ghosts, buffed Mutas, Mini dark swarm, and bugfixed Broodlords and Cyclones.
At least the buffed units are fun (minus the broodlord)
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Didnt realize this had gone live until I played a game last night and someone sieged an observer and I killed it.
Ultimately terran feels like it comes out the loser by a decent margin in this patch.
TvP maybe got a little better since toss won't be able to maintain vision as easily especially at f2 levels. But gonna have to see how that works out.
TvZ yeah I think zerg clearly gets some help in exchange for yoinking tanks.
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On October 01 2025 22:58 Ciaus237 wrote:
The idea that Serral and Reynor are the only Zergs relevant for balance (and that the near absence of the race from smaller cups is not relevant) is an... interesting one.
I think the performance of players like Solar/Shin against players like Showtime/Zoun and Cure/Byun (the A- tier players of their race, for lack of a better term. Maybe that's unfair to Cure because he has great results but I still put him below Maru/Clem) is absolutely relevant. I do question the relevance of smaller cups though. The best Terran (Clem) and the three best Protoss all like playing small cups, while only some good Zerg do, and those that do aren't nearly as prolific.
Could that be because playing Protoss is so unfun for Zerg that they choose not to play cups? It could be. But also with the dearth of top players in general, it's totally feasible that by chance the top Zerg we have just aren't too inclined towards cup play. A tournament like RSL with decent prize pool will be far more instructive.
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not gonna lie, the first tourney on the patch didn't look good. Overcharge got reasonably nerfed but I didn't realize how much stronger the new storm was ; those being the main changes aimed at TvP which was very imbalanced, I don't see how this is going to solve it. Even a slight storm buff would have been questionable (the overcharge nerf was needed and, if we agree TvP was massively problematic, didn't need to have any counterpart), but here ? I genuinely already hope this iteration doesn't last the year.
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Fixed an impactful balance issue where Motherships were not playing their coolest available visual animation while constructing. This is intended to buff Protoss visually.
The intern was surely having fun
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everyone knows protoss dominate weekly cups along with clem and well... this looks about what you would expect any patch
Is it unreasonable to say that this is exactly what a balance patch is supposed to address?
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On October 02 2025 01:15 Admiral Yang wrote:Show nested quote +everyone knows protoss dominate weekly cups along with clem and well... this looks about what you would expect any patch Is it unreasonable to say that this is exactly what a balance patch is supposed to address?
Yes, it is unreasonable to say that the game should be balanced around a weekly cup where a majority of the top players from each race do not participate.
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On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise
Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50.
We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare
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Yes, it is unreasonable to say that the game should be balanced around a weekly cup where a majority of the top players from each race do not participate.
It's hardly a weekly cup at this point, though. It's pretty much all of them as far as I can tell. It doesn't really speak to their quality that only one race effectively participates.
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On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare
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Honestly, I'm really excited about the patch, this is the best patch I can remember. Balance issues will be sorted out but it really seems to promote fun gameplay from all races
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On October 02 2025 03:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Honestly, I'm really excited about the patch, this is the best patch I can remember. Balance issues will be sorted out but it really seems to promote fun gameplay from all races
have you watched any TvPs ? It doesn't look any better than the previous iteration
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Hearing all the Terrans complain today, I'm officially ready to buff Terran. Idk, make Mules mine more minerals or something.
(I think Zerg is fine).
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On October 02 2025 03:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Honestly, I'm really excited about the patch, this is the best patch I can remember. Balance issues will be sorted out but it really seems to promote fun gameplay from all races
A more ambitious (and possibly imba) patch early in the off-season is a good idea in theory, but I'm worried the intern could leave Blizzard for good at any moment.
TvP wise, I think the significance of the ghost change for late game is underappreciated, Terran will have more supply to work with when maxed. The bigger question is if the energy recharge nerfs are enough for Terran to reach late game with a half-healthy base count...
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The people who argue, "All the good players just choose Terran and Zerg. That's why the winrates look the way they do" have been conspicuously absent in the discussion for a while now.
Did it ever occur to anyone that Protoss just dominates online cups because the better players choose Protoss?
People are terrible.
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holy storm really goes live with huge buffs....wow. not sure why they did it but lets see how it plays out...
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Learning zerg is an absolute chore, but just see cham, it's not like old familiar faces can't make it work. It's a blessing that we have all these protoss grinders, it's just a shame zergs won't find any satisfaction in watching these cups. But then for YEARS we've had to put up with not even having hope of a protoss champ in leagues that actually matter.
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On October 02 2025 03:26 Captain Peabody wrote:
Hearing all the Terrans complain today, I'm officially ready to buff Terran. Idk, make Mules mine more minerals or something.
(I think Zerg is fine).
There has literally never been a point in SC2 history that Terran players were not whining about something.
There are some legitimate complaints if you think that balance matters at every level and that some really basic things shouldn't take very little skill to execute but extreme levels of skill to counter (e.g. banelings vs. countering them), but most people don't agree with that while still whining about balance that isn't actually broken at the top level.
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I didn't expect microbial shroud to go online like that, neither did I expect the Viking change to make it through, even if the gas reduction was cut. Interesting times. Zerg is likely the major winner of this patch.
Storm went from major nerfed to buffed? Interesting choice to be sure. Obviously everything else still sucks for toss, so probably a wash overall or slight nerf.
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On October 02 2025 05:46 Archeon wrote:
I didn't expect microbial shroud to go online like that, neither did I expect the Viking change to make it through, even if the gas reduction was cut. Interesting times. Zerg is likely the major winner of this patch.
Storm went from major nerfed to buffed? Interesting choice to be sure. Obviously everything else still sucks for toss, so probably a wash overall or slight nerf.
yeah the distruptor buff is clearly sucking..
Im not sure what terran should do now. Storm is more viable than ever before, and we cant do anything about it. Should at least revert the EMP radius, so protoss have to split templars, or will the f2 armada of players whine about that?
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France12905 Posts
On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare
ByuN lost to Nightmare :x
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On October 02 2025 05:46 Archeon wrote:
I didn't expect microbial shroud to go online like that, neither did I expect the Viking change to make it through, even if the gas reduction was cut. Interesting times. Zerg is likely the major winner of this patch.
Storm went from major nerfed to buffed? Interesting choice to be sure. Obviously everything else still sucks for toss, so probably a wash overall or slight nerf.
I mean Zerg should be the winner of this patch. They've been in the worst position representation-wise in tournaments, and statistically the most imba matchup this last patch by far (at both GM and pro level) has been TvZ. PvZ hasn't been as imba, but has still favored Protoss.
Kinda funny how the story of the last patch has been Terrans complaining, huh?
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On October 02 2025 05:18 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 03:26 Captain Peabody wrote:
Hearing all the Terrans complain today, I'm officially ready to buff Terran. Idk, make Mules mine more minerals or something.
(I think Zerg is fine). There has literally never been a point in SC2 history that Terran players were not whining about something. There are some legitimate complaints if you think that balance matters at every level and that some really basic things shouldn't take very little skill to execute but extreme levels of skill to counter (e.g. banelings vs. countering them), but most people don't agree with that while still whining about balance that isn't actually broken at the top level.
From watching the tournos played today, it does seem that there was a Protoss bump post-patch, but also that it mostly just came from Ts and Zs not understanding or being familiar with the new Storm: i.e. I've seen numerous players just standing in Storms bc of the radius and also run into Storms right when the storms would have stopped pre-patch (and also numerous Protoss running into their own storms).
Over the course of the day, though, the Terran players I've been watching seem to have learned that speed banshees and tank pushes are really strong post-patch TvP with the energy nerf. So it really is "too early to tell," I think.
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On October 02 2025 07:15 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare ByuN lost to Nightmare :x
yeah but ByuN is trash according to TeamMamba. there will be no sympathy towards terran until Clem is losing 0-4 to Harstem and Jumy
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yo dear Blizz Intern,
Can you plz add a mule QoL change as follows:
* Whenever the mule timer expires with the mule holding minerals,
the mule would get to live for as long as it is holding the minerals, but no longer than 2 seconds.
This would allow the mules to complete the last trip to the command center, and break down right after dropping the minerals.
Thank you
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On October 02 2025 07:34 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 07:15 Poopi wrote:On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare ByuN lost to Nightmare :x yeah but ByuN is trash according to TeamMamba. there will be no sympathy towards terran until Clem is losing 0-4 to Harstem and Jumy
Ya Byun is not top tier. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yup the community has zero for sympathy towards terran since they have been crying and whining for 15 years strong now. Until they stop crying then we might “listen” to their idea of balance. Cause these were the same guys who thought the OG widow mine was balance lol and literally tell Zerg and toss pros to git gud
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On October 02 2025 10:58 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 07:34 SHODAN wrote:On October 02 2025 07:15 Poopi wrote:On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare ByuN lost to Nightmare :x yeah but ByuN is trash according to TeamMamba. there will be no sympathy towards terran until Clem is losing 0-4 to Harstem and Jumy Ya Byun is not top tier. Thanks for pointing that out. Yup the community has zero for sympathy towards terran since they have been crying and whining for 15 years strong now. Until they stop crying then we might “listen” to their idea of balance. Cause these were the same guys who thought the OG widow mine was balance lol and literally tell Zerg and toss pros to git gud
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On October 02 2025 10:27 bela.mervado wrote:
yo dear Blizz Intern,
Can you plz add a mule QoL change as follows:
* Whenever the mule timer expires with the mule holding minerals,
the mule would get to live for as long as it is holding the minerals, but no longer than 2 seconds.
This would allow the mules to complete the last trip to the command center, and break down right after dropping the minerals.
Thank you
That's not a QoL-feature, that's just called a buff...
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Ghost Light tag finally
Now the rockpaper scissors dynamic is now complete:
Ghost > HT > Viking > Colossus > Ghost
Before Colossus didn't really soft-counter Bio+Ghost
Also, those PvT unit comps like Adept Colossus that Astrea went was a cool style and now will have more use
Phoenix comps like Phoenix Colossus could also be interesting!
Phoenix can pick up Ghost but Ghost can EMP. Should be fine.
And Supply back down to 2 so it will hurt Bio still but Mech less now since you won't be playing vs Colossus or mass banelings crashing into your ghosts
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On October 02 2025 02:43 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare
LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8
Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance?
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On October 02 2025 03:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Honestly, I'm really excited about the patch, this is the best patch I can remember. Balance issues will be sorted out but it really seems to promote fun gameplay from all races
Not sure if I consider getting my slow ass stormed into oblivion even harder while i'm not looking at my army a "promotion" of "fun gameplay", though.
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(Wiki)LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8
Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance?
Acknowledging that this whole exercise is reductive to the point of uselessness, Rogue losing to Skillous and Byun losing to Nightmare are obvious upsets, while Bunny losing to Creator and Lambo losing to Trigger are arguable upsets.
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First games played after a balance patch have almost zero indication on the actual state of balance. Let them cook for a week or two
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On October 02 2025 07:34 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 07:15 Poopi wrote:On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare ByuN lost to Nightmare :x yeah but ByuN is trash according to TeamMamba. there will be no sympathy towards terran until Clem is losing 0-4 to Harstem and Jumy
Why are you looking for sympathy? Clowns are supposed to make you laugh!
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On October 02 2025 20:31 Admiral Yang wrote:Show nested quote +(Wiki)LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8
Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance? Acknowledging that this whole exercise is reductive to the point of uselessness, Rogue losing to Skillous and Byun losing to Nightmare are obvious upsets, while Bunny losing to Creator and Lambo losing to Trigger are arguable upsets.
I know it's useless.
I'm just curious which games the people complaining consider to be upsets.
You mentioned ByuN and NightMare being an obvious upset, but Aligulac predicts a ~50/50 match-up between those two.
+ Show Spoiler + (3028) ByuN 0-0 NightMare (2999)
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26.30% 2-0 0-2 23.73%
25.63% 2-1 1-2 24.34%
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51.93% 48.07%
Median outcome: ByuN 2-1 NightMare
I'd personally lean more heavily towards ByuN than Aligulac does, but I don't think it's crazy that NightMare would win a series between the two.
EDIT:
Don't take this as me saying that the game is in a good state. I think it's a mess.
It will take more than one patch made by one intern to fix the mess that the balance clowncil left behind.
But 7/8 Protoss getting into the quarter finals of a LiuLi Cup isn't the indicator of imbalance that some people want it to be.
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I think you make some good points MJG. I myself probably wouldn't watch Liuli Cup even if it had a less lopsided representation, so my opinion is largely worthless. But as a viewing product, a 7,5/8 representation for one race is simply terrible. On the other hand, things at EWC looked about as fine as you could reasonably expect. Same with the excellent Maestros of the Game.
There is of course also the depressing prospect that we pretty much already have the SCII pros and semi-pros that we are going to have for the forseeable future, and that a disproportionate number of those happen to play toss, in which case balancing for a more even representation would simply put more money in the pockets of Serral, Reynor, Maru, Clem and Cure while doing nothing for representation at large.
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Damned ..
Sorry to point it, but if you increase every stats of a spell, why the hell the cost of the mana remains the same ?
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On October 02 2025 22:45 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 20:31 Admiral Yang wrote:(Wiki)LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8
Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance? Acknowledging that this whole exercise is reductive to the point of uselessness, Rogue losing to Skillous and Byun losing to Nightmare are obvious upsets, while Bunny losing to Creator and Lambo losing to Trigger are arguable upsets. I know it's useless. I'm just curious which games the people complaining consider to be upsets. You mentioned ByuN and NightMare being an obvious upset, but Aligulac predicts a ~50/50 match-up between those two. + Show Spoiler + (3028) ByuN 0-0 NightMare (2999)
-----------------------------------------------
26.30% 2-0 0-2 23.73%
25.63% 2-1 1-2 24.34%
-----------------------------------------------
51.93% 48.07%
Median outcome: ByuN 2-1 NightMare I'd personally lean more heavily towards ByuN than Aligulac does, but I don't think it's crazy that NightMare would win a series between the two. EDIT: Don't take this as me saying that the game is in a good state. I think it's a mess. It will take more than one patch made by one intern to fix the mess that the balance clowncil left behind. But 7/8 Protoss getting into the quarter finals of a LiuLi Cup isn't the indicator of imbalance that some people want it to be.
You realize aligulac's prediction is based on ByuN and NightMare performances on the previous patch, which was heavily P favored ? Things staying the same in TvP would actually be horrible and mean the patch didn't address any issues the mu had. It's indeed too early to tell if that's the case, but I'm kinda worried.
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Damned ..
Sorry to point it, but if you increase every stats of a spell, why the hell the cost of the mana remains the same ?
Assuming you are referring to Storm, the mana cost has effectively been nerfed with the energy overcharge nerf.
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Would love a TL poll a some point on the front page where they gauge general sentiment to the patch.
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On October 02 2025 18:05 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 03:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Honestly, I'm really excited about the patch, this is the best patch I can remember. Balance issues will be sorted out but it really seems to promote fun gameplay from all races Not sure if I consider getting my slow ass stormed into oblivion even harder while i'm not looking at my army a "promotion" of "fun gameplay", though.
That's a balance concern, not a design concern though.
I think templar TvP is by far the most fun playstyle so I like seeing it promoted. Same with Baneling styles and Muta styles. Terran gets smaller buffs across the board.
I'm also worried about some balance stuff (especially ZvT) but I think it's more important to make the game fun first and balance can be fixed later
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Just switch to BroodWar...
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On October 03 2025 02:09 niteReloaded wrote:
Just switch to BroodWar...
Protoss is the weakest race in Brood War and people still complain about it.
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Changing energy recharge and not just increasing hallucination cost is silly
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So Blizzard goes from nerfing Storm into oblivion into making it even better than it was before.
It's just more evidence that there's no real planning or vision behind any of these changes. They really are just throwing paint at a wall and if any of the changes actually ends up working out it's just by random chance.
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Storm does too much damage. I like the idea behind increasing the radius and extending the duration, but it needs further tuning. Maybe 110 damage instead of 140.
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Make EMP target Life aswell as shield, then we would have a spellcaster each that could deal whit the armies! Even match tvp! :D
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On October 02 2025 15:11 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 02:43 SHODAN wrote:On October 02 2025 02:02 TeamMamba wrote:On October 01 2025 21:23 Kreuger wrote:
Looking at the matchups, maybe 1-2 of those tosses are a suprise but nothing special otherwise Typical bias picking. All the Protoss that advance were either better than the opponent or get worse 50-50. We can talk about toss being OP when we see for example Clem losing 0-3 to someone like skillious or nightmare LiuLi Cup/Weekly/8Which Ro16 match-ups do you think are upsets caused by balance?
I don't have anything to say about those results. as Admiral Yang said: it's a pointless exercise.
TeamMamba has been butthurt about widow mines for 12 years. terran nerfs are the only thing that will heal his spite! he admitted that much himself: terran players should suffer reprisals as a form of punishment for past patches
these kinds of so-called "fans" would rather see the integrity of the game suffer, provided that their personal grievances are satisfied in some way. TeamMamba is an extreme example, of course. his post history is almost exclusively terran bashing at every opportunity. community contributions from the likes of TeamMamba, and others like him, have a tendency to seep into the general discourse where certain things become tacitly agreed upon (one scabby sheep will mar the whole flock).
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idk anything about the overall balance (waaay too early to tell) but the new storm just feels stronger. Game 1 classic vs clem is an excellent show of it.
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On October 03 2025 02:09 niteReloaded wrote:
Just switch to BroodWar...
The genius of even remastered version of brood war didn't ask for balance change is amazing. That should be the case, and community can always balance the game by tournament maps.
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On October 03 2025 08:03 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:The genius of even remastered version of brood war didn't ask for balance change is amazing. That should be the case, and community can always balance the game by tournament maps.
Technically, the change to the sprite limit was a balance change in that Valkyries would no longer fail to fire.
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On October 03 2025 05:30 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Make EMP target Life aswell as shield, then we would have a spellcaster each that could deal whit the armies! Even match tvp! :D
Sure, if storm deals it's full damage in the first tick too and HTs get a somewhat reasonable fighting body for the supply and get the ability to cloak and be faster. Also buff feedback to actually kill the units I'm targeting with like snipe and arguably abduct. Racial symmetry and all.
Bottom line is that if there's a unit that doesn't need buffs, it's the ghost. It's kinda nuts to me that we're buffing spellcasters in general, but I won't pretend I'm good enough at this game to seriously judge.
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On October 01 2025 22:58 Ciaus237 wrote:
The idea that Serral and Reynor are the only Zergs relevant for balance (and that the near absence of the race from smaller cups is not relevant) is an... interesting one.
It's been like that forever, there are just less 'major' tournaments now. Doesn't really matter at the end of the day, you still have to balance around the absolute best players and not pay heed to whatever LedditWhiner0112 or LadderJimmy420 thinks.
Happy was catching Undead nerfs when he was pretty much the only one winning with the race, just because he was (and arguably still is the best overall player).
We'll probably never have a more balanced year than we had this one when you look at the actual top level competition/tournaments.
Hopefully both Clem and Serral participate in RSL S3
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As a diamond 2 player, I do not think these changes will have any impact whatsoever on my win rate. What do other players around this skill level think?
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Aaaaand Skillous beats Rogue again for a full P ro8 in the Wardi Open. I mean the playing field was mostly P and no impossible upset happened, but it's getting dangerous for the variety of the game. Apparently Blizzard said they would be monitoring their new version of storm in the first few weeks ; if I were them, I'd already be considering reverting the change.
Edit : full P ro4, my bad. Still doesn't feel too exciting.
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On October 03 2025 21:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Aaaaand Skillous beats Rogue again for a full P ro8 in the Wardi Open. I mean the playing field was mostly P and no impossible upset happened, but it's getting dangerous for the variety of the game. Apparently Blizzard said they would be monitoring their new version of storm in the first few weeks ; if I were them, I'd already be considering reverting the change.
Edit : full P ro4, my bad. Still doesn't feel too exciting.
PP
PP
PP twice and uninstall the game is the way to go. Perma PP from the game, take a break, do something nice IRL , touch some grass we'll be all good to go.
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Northern Ireland26051 Posts
On October 03 2025 04:33 Russano wrote:
Storm does too much damage. I like the idea behind increasing the radius and extending the duration, but it needs further tuning. Maybe 110 damage instead of 140.
This is the problem with tweaking a real core ability at this juncture. Over or under tune it and things get really messy for a while.
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Storm didn't need changing at all.
The problem was very obviously Energy Recharge.
Energy Recharge should've been nerfed harder. No cool down buff, just the energy nerf.
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Northern Ireland26051 Posts
On October 03 2025 22:48 MJG wrote:
Storm didn't need changing at all.
The problem was very obviously Energy Recharge.
Energy Recharge should've been nerfed harder. No cool down buff, just the energy nerf.
There’s a lot of stuff in that patch I didn’t feel needed changing.
Which isn’t necessarily a problem, shaking things up or incentivising different approaches and styles should be just as much the object as toning down things that are too strong.
I just don’t get how it all fits together, or how it’s meant to anyway. Where are the explanatory notes? Although in the past often changes seemed to actively go against the patch changes
It’s just a wonky process, I think they change too much at once for a start. Unless it’s very obvious, how do we figure what’s impacting what.
Case in point, problem is energy overcharge in combination with storm. I think that’s a good thing to address. All but the biggest Protoss zealot would concede that combo was a bit overtuned.
So OK, good thing to look at. But rather than address one aspect of the combo, they nerfed both at once. And one has been a core aspect of the game since WoL, basically unchanged. So now you’re trying to find a sweet spot with two simultaneous changes, one of which may be too big a nerf. In addition, the Terran Viking buff is an indirect nerf to Colossus, that’s the other main source of AoE, from the faction that absolutely needs it.
OK, that’s a pretty obvious set of cascading problems, what’s a potential tweak on a second pass going to be? Well, a pretty obvious port of call is buffing the Disruptor, the third and least-heralded part of the Toss Holy AoE Trinity.
Well OK, that’s a pretty logical tweak. Except then on the third pass, and the one that goes into retail, you buff storm back up, and you retain a buffed Disruptor.
So now, what do you get? Well, how do we know? We never properly investigated energy overcharge in isolation, we just kept making changes atop changes
It’s such a strange process to me.
I think you see it with Zerg as well. I like the idea of microbial shroud, it seems, second-guessing intended to give Zerg a tool to attack into defensive setups. OK, cool, let’s see how that works.
Except added atop that, the abduct on tank change, also the Viking change which IMO is probably most targeted at lategame Z and brood switches.
It feels almost like ‘hm microbial shroud might be too good with x comp in x scenario, better buff counters to that.’ But before ascertaining if shroud is actually that potent.
I don’t think it’s all bad, but why do so much in one patch? It’s a very delicately balanced game. Could you not do half as much, twice as frequently?
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On October 03 2025 23:28 WombaT wrote:
I don’t think it’s all bad, but why do so much in one patch? It’s a very delicately balanced game. Could you not do half as much, twice as frequently?
100% agree. The game is 15 years old, for God's sake. At that point, we should be far into the fine tuning stage, and we're getting full overhauls every year. Why can't we have a patch that looks like this :
"OK, TvP is obviously too hard for T and we want to promote muta ling bane play vP and vT again. Hence, here are the proposed changes :
- spire cost -> 150/150, build time reduced
- centrifugal hooks gives +5 HP again
- cyclone bug fix (or make the "bugged" version official)
- energy overcharge nerf
- viking cost -> 125/75"
instead of the aforementioned changes + a bunch of trololol changes (without any explanation for most of them) that address nothing and are bound to completely throw away the state of the game we knew previously ? That genuinely makes me mad. I get that content creators wouldn't have their "OMG BROKEN SHROUD IS TERRAN WRECKED ?" or "NEW STORM DOESN'T KILL A MARINE UNDER A MEDIVAC" videos, but I don't think the game needs them. We should get excited about good games and a sound competitive environment, not about crazy patches.
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Patches are begotten by the whim of reddit wailings, it seems, and they prefer changes for the change's sake, which means they are willing to sacrifice the future for the present.
10 years from now a player cming back to sc2 would've no idea what anything does, because anything can change and will change, and most changes are hardly sensible.
That said the meta is probably still fun, and I can't be too annoyed seeing what the first iteration was. I shall remember that because it was the worst, and many ppl supported those changes, which goes to show that it's in the end still the same, protoss should expect not only to not win, but to receive nerfs on top when it happens.
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On October 01 2025 22:58 Ciaus237 wrote:
The idea that Serral and Reynor are the only Zergs relevant for balance (and that the near absence of the race from smaller cups is not relevant) is an... interesting one.
...just play like Serral... LMAO 
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On October 04 2025 02:38 ejozl wrote:
10 years from now a player cming back to sc2 would've no idea what anything does, because anything can change and will change, and most changes are hardly sensible.
Thats not a bad or a weird thing, pretty much everygame is like that, BW fans have a warped sense of reality but even games that are old and have a scene (Aoe2, WC3, LoL, DotA) have patches, shit even cardgames have bannings in their eternal formats, its very common to have to learn new metas when coming back to a game.
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Starcraft 2 has been on life support for a while, but this patch is the nail in the coffin. I uninstalled for good tonight. Tourneys have been super stale with no quotable games for a long time. So it's not fun to play, and not fun to watch. Brood War is still amazing, though.
Psi-Storm gets triple buffed, basically a 50% effective radius buff, since units will already be moving away from the center. The damage still can't be ignored, there's still the exact same urgency to get marines out of the storm now.
Patch that was supposed to super nerf Protoss does this:
50% radius increase to Storm
80% damage increase Storm
Get free storms still, except faster
100% duration increase
Every second counts in an RTS, this is exactly why Pro players do mining tricks in Brood War and SC2. Giving Protoss over 3 additional seconds (due to radius increase as well) of additional zoning, forget about the damage, it's over.
The current player base is going to shrink by at least 50% in the next couple months. This patch gave the largest buffs to any race I've ever seen in an RTS in 2 decades of playing RTS games. Don't worry though, guys. Banshees getting speed ~20 seconds earlier even though 1 sentry hallucination +1 phoenix can chase them down no matter what is the buff we needed in a 15% win rate matchup!
The community has been overwhelmingly patient with how Protoss players are able to camp on shield batteries, templars, and cannons, all while teching to super fast super high range super high damage Tempests. (I never read replies)
User was banned for this post.
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On October 04 2025 16:28 Sameday wrote:
Starcraft 2 has been on life support for a while, but this patch is the nail in the coffin. I uninstalled for good tonight. Tourneys have been super stale with no quotable games for a long time. So it's not fun to play, and not fun to watch. Brood War is still amazing, though.
Psi-Storm gets triple buffed, basically a 50% effective radius buff, since units will already be moving away from the center. The damage still can't be ignored, there's still the exact same urgency to get marines out of the storm now.
Patch that was supposed to super nerf Protoss does this:
50% radius increase to Storm
80% damage increase Storm
Get free storms still, except faster
100% duration increase
Every second counts in an RTS, this is exactly why Pro players do mining tricks in Brood War and SC2. Giving Protoss over 3 additional seconds (due to radius increase as well) of additional zoning, forget about the damage, it's over.
The current player base is going to shrink by at least 50% in the next couple months. This patch gave the largest buffs to any race I've ever seen in an RTS in 2 decades of playing RTS games. Don't worry though, guys. Banshees getting speed ~20 seconds earlier even though 1 sentry hallucination +1 phoenix can chase them down no matter what is the buff we needed in a 15% win rate matchup!
The community has been overwhelmingly patient with how Protoss players are able to camp on shield batteries, templars, and cannons, all while teching to super fast super high range super high damage Tempests. (I never read replies)
Oh that's interesting.
Leading 4 Selection/Asia
And quite odd. Not sure we're watching the same game(s)?
The -1 range and less burst made it have had practically no affect in top level play.
I haven't seen a single protoss except for Classic display a firm command in PvT, and even he is still trading games with Clem. They're the two best players for each race, and they each make games against other opponents look like mostly walkovers.
Post from my other thread since you live in a leddit echo chamber detached from reality
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2025 07:41 Agh wrote:4 Terran, 3 Zerg, 3 Protoss for our winners in the top prize money 1vs1 tournaments for 2025. (Minimum $10,000 USD) + Show Spoiler +EWC - Serral (Z)
GSL S1 - Hero (P)
GSL S2 - Classic (P)
Dreamhack - Maru (T)
Maestros - Clem (T)
MC8 - Serral (Z)
Stara Zagora - Clem (T)
PiG 5 - Serral (Z)
PiG 6 - Clem (T)
Homestory - Zoun (P)
For fun I just pulled up 2024's and 2023's S-tier results 2024: 4 Terran, 4 Zerg, 0 Protoss (~$171,500 prize pool averaged across the 8) 2023: 6 Zerg, 4 Terran, 0 Protoss (~$141,800 prize pool averages across the 10) Game is pretty much as balanced as it's ever been for the top players.
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lol, Storm zoning is way better and more devastating then Force Field, just find a choke point and drop Storm one at a time. Also, the old reaction of Zerg/Terran players that walk back their army into the storm also causing problem.
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Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment.
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On October 05 2025 00:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment.
Yeah that third game was obscene. Just revert storm ffs...
Arguably Shin could've taken better engagements, but with how long new storm lasts, I feel like toss will have so much time to sandbag pushes on maps with ramps near 3rd/4th bases.
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On October 05 2025 01:02 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 00:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment. Yeah that third game was obscene. Just revert storm ffs... Arguably Shin could've taken better engagements, but with how long new storm lasts, I feel like toss will have so much time to sandbag pushes on maps with ramps near 3rd/4th bases.
obscene is the perfect word. I was fuming behind my screen, and I'm pretty sure Steadfast, while forced by his streamer status to hail those "beautiful storms", was appalled as well.
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I feel like this new Storm is created to perfectly counter Ling Hydra timing from Zerg, hell they can even work well against Roach Ravager timing as well. Drop storm, make Archon/Immortal/Chargelot and collect Zerg tears.
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I don't understand this change, it punishes those who scout:
Surveillance mode now reveals the Observers.
It makes no sense...
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Northern Ireland26051 Posts
What makes it even worse is to my knowledge it’s bugged in terms of the animation not properly mapping onto the actual area it’s doing damage in.
I felt even the nerfed storm with lower DPS/higher duration and total damage might have still been good against Zerg in plenty of scenarios because unlike T they have melee units. Also roaches, to a lesser degree hydras don’t have huge DPS and tend to have to stick around and outnumber to bust a Toss.
This form of Storm? It just feels it’s an outright buff versus Zerg.
Stop changing Storm! It’s fine! Goodness sake. See how the overcharge change goes
It feels like you’ve a set of scales, that were basically level, and you keep laying on weights or taking them away to make it bounce up and down on either end.
So after the first set of tweaks it felt it’s potentially making storm garbage against T, and maybe OK against Z, and an overall nerf to storm and Toss. Now it’s as good as before/situationally better versus T, and probably better versus Z, which overall is a buff to Toss.
I’m OK with experimenting, but perhaps fine tune changes, see what works and look into making the next tweak.
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On October 05 2025 01:02 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 00:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment. Yeah that third game was obscene. Just revert storm ffs... Arguably Shin could've taken better engagements, but with how long new storm lasts, I feel like toss will have so much time to sandbag pushes on maps with ramps near 3rd/4th bases.
Can you clip the parts that were "obscene" please?
Was it the part where he had an 80 supply advantage and attacked up converging ramps into a 6+ High Templar army?
Or was it the part where he build 4 spines at his 4th and let a zealot run-by go ignored into his 3rd base and wipe out that mineral line?
Just genuinely curious.
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On October 05 2025 02:21 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 01:02 dysenterymd wrote:On October 05 2025 00:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment. Yeah that third game was obscene. Just revert storm ffs... Arguably Shin could've taken better engagements, but with how long new storm lasts, I feel like toss will have so much time to sandbag pushes on maps with ramps near 3rd/4th bases. Can you clip the parts that were "obscene" please? Was it the part where he had an 80 supply advantage and attacked up converging ramps into a 6+ High Templar army? Or was it the part where he build 4 spines at his 4th and let a zealot run-by go ignored into his 3rd base and wipe out that mineral line? Just genuinely curious.
please be serious. The fact he just couldn't finish the game with (indeed) a 80 supply advantage because of 5 storms should tell you there is a problem with the current version. Btw, noticed how Zoun played the whole game on 3 bases but was able to hold because the gas he got was enough to get storms ? Just having storm vs such a ling bane hydra army would never have saved him in any previous iteration of the game.
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On October 05 2025 02:08 WombaT wrote:
Stop changing Storm! It’s fine! Goodness sake. See how the overcharge change goes.
Please do this. Keep the other changes all you want, but please do this.
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On October 05 2025 02:21 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 01:02 dysenterymd wrote:On October 05 2025 00:58 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching the new storm completely wreck SHIN in his series vs Zoun was painful. We simply cannot keep the buffed storm if we want SC2 to be anything resembling a sound competitive environment. Yeah that third game was obscene. Just revert storm ffs... Arguably Shin could've taken better engagements, but with how long new storm lasts, I feel like toss will have so much time to sandbag pushes on maps with ramps near 3rd/4th bases. Can you clip the parts that were "obscene" please? Was it the part where he had an 80 supply advantage and attacked up converging ramps into a 6+ High Templar army? Or was it the part where he build 4 spines at his 4th and let a zealot run-by go ignored into his 3rd base and wipe out that mineral line? Just genuinely curious.
So you think an 80 supply advantage should be completely wiped out by 6 High Templar with Storm? And you think that make the game good/balance/ fun to watch?
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On October 05 2025 02:08 WombaT wrote:
What makes it even worse is to my knowledge it’s bugged in terms of the animation not properly mapping onto the actual area it’s doing damage in.
I felt even the nerfed storm with lower DPS/higher duration and total damage might have still been good against Zerg in plenty of scenarios because unlike T they have melee units. Also roaches, to a lesser degree hydras don’t have huge DPS and tend to have to stick around and outnumber to bust a Toss.
This form of Storm? It just feels it’s an outright buff versus Zerg.
Stop changing Storm! It’s fine! Goodness sake. See how the overcharge change goes
It feels like you’ve a set of scales, that were basically level, and you keep laying on weights or taking them away to make it bounce up and down on either end.
So after the first set of tweaks it felt it’s potentially making storm garbage against T, and maybe OK against Z, and an overall nerf to storm and Toss. Now it’s as good as before/situationally better versus T, and probably better versus Z, which overall is a buff to Toss.
I’m OK with experimenting, but perhaps fine tune changes, see what works and look into making the next tweak.
I don't know why they changed it, much less two things at the same time. Should have left it alone and tested the energy recharge only.
It's current version yields more utility vs Z which is a buff that clearly wasn't intended. It's too strong in tight spaces and if you have excess energy allows you to get yourself in that ideal position.
The way the patch was handled seemed like an obfuscated way to push the ghost supply change in at the last second, not to mention the banshee speed research that was already seeing play beforehand, quite the head scratching decisions.
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Would shin have won with old storm and energy overcharge at 100e, I'm not sure, it seems zoun read the game perfectly and if shin was aiming to all in then why go to 80+ drones? He could've perhaps gone broods for a later timing.
Storm is overtuned, sure, but without buffing storm it's simply a protoss nerf, and the better player would've lost that game.
The safe change would've been to make energy overcharge give 75e, or cost 75e and give 100e, then use the old storm but give it 1 extra tick at the end.
The overpowering version of storm could also work, but then it'd be fair to give back emp 2r upg, banes with full value dmg and 40hp and widow mine at 1.75, fungal can last 6 seconds instead of 4 with lower dps. I'd be for something like that.
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On October 05 2025 07:48 ejozl wrote:
Would shin have won with old storm and energy overcharge at 100e, I'm not sure, it seems zoun read the game perfectly and if shin was aiming to all in then why go to 80+ drones? He could've perhaps gone broods for a later timing.
Storm is overtuned, sure, but without buffing storm it's simply a protoss nerf, and the better player would've lost that game.
The safe change would've been to make energy overcharge give 75e, or cost 75e and give 100e, then use the old storm but give it 1 extra tick at the end.
The overpowering version of storm could also work, but then it'd be fair to give back emp 2r upg, banes with full value dmg and 40hp and widow mine at 1.75, fungal can last 6 seconds instead of 4 with lower dps. I'd be for something like that.
I'm not against a Zerg up 80 supply being able to lose if they head-butt into a 3 base toss with storm, batteries, and cannons, but I feel like when SHIN pushed into Zoun's 3 bases after killing the 4th he actually did a pretty good job dodging storms, they just covered so much surface area. We can't know how the old patch would have gone (where imo, PvZ was roughly balanced), but even with a few more smaller storms, I feel like some banes would've inevitably slipped through and SHIN would've traded well enough. Not sure I agree that Zoun is the better player - I'd expect him and Shin to be evenly matched (neither are the absolute best, but are scary players who can beat almost anyone on a good day.)
Attacking Zoun after killing the 4th turned out to be the wrong call, and I'm sure Zerg will learn when they can and cannot push later in the patch. It's just if SHIN couldn't finish Zoun after a start that good, I don't think it bodes well for pre-hive Zerg play in this patch. Maybe Zerg will still be fine with shroud but I'm not sure that's good for the meta.
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On October 05 2025 07:48 ejozl wrote:
Storm is overtuned, sure, but without buffing storm it's simply a protoss nerf
The last version of the game had some imbalance and a P nerf was needed, admittedly not so much for PvZ but definitely for PvT. In the end the version they chose doesn't change much in PvT and makes PvZ a lot worse ; I'm sorry but that makes no sense.
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Been playing some games as the different races and I gotta say storm does seem insane against zerg. Roaches get absolutely melted. Even siege tanks get owned by storm lol
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Yeah I played around a bit with the new storm and I really really dislike it. Regardless of balance implications, it seems to have removed counterplay and reduced the skill required to use it, because you can't really bait out storms anymore and Protoss doesn't have to be mindful anymore about how to use it.
They can just cast it whenever the opponents army comes near him and it will zone him out forever.
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On October 05 2025 00:52 tigera6 wrote:
lol, Storm zoning is way better and more devastating then Force Field, just find a choke point and drop Storm one at a time. Also, the old reaction of Zerg/Terran players that walk back their army into the storm also causing problem.
I don't think that Storm should've been changed in the way it has (or at all), but players walking into Storms that haven't yet dissipated because they haven't yet adapted to the duration change is 100% a skill issue.
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If the money from tournament were invested into a programmers informatic team then, it would have a chance to balance and improve the gameplay of SC2. Actually, while some idea looks good and benefit to the game, other ideas are incomprehensible and create dissatisfaction and reject of the game - which means one step forward and two steps back.
The decision to change the storm at the last minute is clearly the proof of a lack of professionalism
The communication around their activity on SC2 is also terrible
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Speculations going in twitchchat thar we might get an update on the patch in the coming hours.
Lets see what happens
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Was this patch designed by in-house Blizzard team or by the council?
Why is there suddenly commotion around SC? I recently got an email about some SC cosmetics for Diablo IV, and was kinda surprised they still remember about this IP :D
SC3 confirmed?
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On October 07 2025 01:14 Kreuger wrote:Speculations going in twitchchat thar we might get an update on the patch in the coming hours. Lets see what happens
I think storm having a slightly longer duration and damage to help deal with Lurkers and Liberators is good, particularly with the new Dark Swarm. If I had to make a single change right now, it would be to reduce the radius back again to what it was. Slightly tuning the numbers down might be fine also.
Other than that, though, I hope the balance team can resist the temptation to change too much at once. A lot of the changes honestly haven't had the time to fully be tested or see how they shake out.
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On October 07 2025 01:32 Spirral wrote:
Was this patch designed by in-house Blizzard team or by the council?
Why is there suddenly commotion around SC? I recently got an email about some SC cosmetics for Diablo IV, and was kinda surprised they still remember about this IP :D
SC3 confirmed?
sc3 lmao no. My honest guess is: EWC wants to keep sc2 but wants to see active development or something like that and battle aces conveniently failed in time to free up david kim and blizz brought david kim back and that's who is behind this.
source? i made it all up.
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I find PvT to be so incredibly boring they should figure out how to patch out whatever is causing Terrans to SCV pull/all-in at such high rates
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Yeah i do feel storm should be 8.5 or 9 range. 8 range is just a bit too short to use other than for zoning/kiting.
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On October 07 2025 11:19 rwala wrote:
I find PvT to be so incredibly boring they should figure out how to patch out whatever is causing Terrans to SCV pull/all-in at such high rates
For that you'd have to fix the eco by reverting the chrono boost buff
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Chrono boost buff?
Are you talking about Patch 4.0.0 when the Mothership Core was removed and Chrono Boost was brought back as a castable spell? Because the only change to Chrono Boost since then was this:
Chrono Boost strength reduced from 100% to 50% and duration per cast increased from 10 seconds to 20 seconds.
If we're going to undo things that happened during Patch 4.0.0 then I'd happily go back to having the Mothership Core and Photon Overcharge. They were much more fun than Shield Batteries and Energy Recharge!
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On October 07 2025 11:19 rwala wrote:
I find PvT to be so incredibly boring they should figure out how to patch out whatever is causing Terrans to SCV pull/all-in at such high rates
Making adepts 2 shot scvs should fix that
I'm honestly surprised so many terrans opt for this strat when lotv have given such great solutions to deal with that. Not only adepts, but zlot charge costs 100\100, shield battery, stasis, colossus(more anti light), disruptor.
As for chrono it doesn't even give better eco than the hots chrono. The forever chrono is better for probes if you train them constantly, but where energy chrono is stronger is for timings, saving up power for certain upgrades, or unit power spikes.
A better reason for protoss' economic growth in lotv is the extra supply given pr. Town hall.
Nexus 10->15 supply.
Hatchery 2->6 supply.
Cc 11->15 supply.
Not only did nexus get the biggest increase, but it's also the cheaper town hall if you include that Z needs queen and T needs orbital.
So protoss gains 5 supply pr. 400 minerals, whereas zerg gains 3 pr. 450 minerals and terran gains 4 supply pr. 550 minerals.
I'm also not sure why protoss went from 10->15 and not 10->14. I guess they were scared that new eco would hurt protoss the most, which was at the time the slowest expanding race. 14 supply at the start would make the beginning a lot more awkward too.
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4000mmr terran here, just wanna leave my thoughts
tvp sucks blah blah blah
but also, TvZ sucks for the zerg at my level. I keep trashing zergs that are better than me with that hellion cyclone shit and then later into tanks. my build order is simple, the standard rax/gas > cc > fact > cc > starport, build hellions non stop, build 2 banshees (more if scout a roach warren, i don't even bother with banshee upgrades, they are just to keep me from dying to early roach) then 2 more fact then 2 more fact and pump out cyclones non stop. if they got a lot of lings, i get blue flame, otherwise, skip it. get armories when i remember, not really important. and these poor zergs keep dying. I'm having a lot of fun with the wins, but i think it's legit unfair and broken at my level.
and if i was good enough to harass with my banshees, it'd be even worse on the zergs.
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On October 08 2025 11:29 zelevin wrote:
4000mmr terran here, just wanna leave my thoughts
tvp sucks blah blah blah
but also, TvZ sucks for the zerg at my level. I keep trashing zergs that are better than me with that hellion cyclone shit and then later into tanks. my build order is simple, the standard rax/gas > cc > fact > cc > starport, build hellions non stop, build 2 banshees (more if scout a roach warren, i don't even bother with banshee upgrades, they are just to keep me from dying to early roach) then 2 more fact then 2 more fact and pump out cyclones non stop. if they got a lot of lings, i get blue flame, otherwise, skip it. get armories when i remember, not really important. and these poor zergs keep dying. I'm having a lot of fun with the wins, but i think it's legit unfair and broken at my level.
and if i was good enough to harass with my banshees, it'd be even worse on the zergs.
I checked your name, Your a zerg lol
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On October 07 2025 23:37 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2025 11:19 rwala wrote:
I find PvT to be so incredibly boring they should figure out how to patch out whatever is causing Terrans to SCV pull/all-in at such high rates Making adepts 2 shot scvs should fix that I'm honestly surprised so many terrans opt for this strat when lotv have given such great solutions to deal with that. Not only adepts, but zlot charge costs 100\100, shield battery, stasis, colossus(more anti light), disruptor. As for chrono it doesn't even give better eco than the hots chrono. The forever chrono is better for probes if you train them constantly, but where energy chrono is stronger is for timings, saving up power for certain upgrades, or unit power spikes. A better reason for protoss' economic growth in lotv is the extra supply given pr. Town hall. Nexus 10->15 supply. Hatchery 2->6 supply. Cc 11->15 supply. Not only did nexus get the biggest increase, but it's also the cheaper town hall if you include that Z needs queen and T needs orbital. So protoss gains 5 supply pr. 400 minerals, whereas zerg gains 3 pr. 450 minerals and terran gains 4 supply pr. 550 minerals. I'm also not sure why protoss went from 10->15 and not 10->14. I guess they were scared that new eco would hurt protoss the most, which was at the time the slowest expanding race. 14 supply at the start would make the beginning a lot more awkward too.
It s a discussion because zerg supply benefits of the fast expand, which help them to increase their supply cap. It has shifted the mid game by almost 1 min and cancel a lot of builds and openers. Today it s obvious that bases gives too many supply, i mean it s obvious that players prefer to build a CC than a depot (way less interessant).
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On October 08 2025 15:15 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2025 11:29 zelevin wrote:
4000mmr terran here, just wanna leave my thoughts
tvp sucks blah blah blah
but also, TvZ sucks for the zerg at my level. I keep trashing zergs that are better than me with that hellion cyclone shit and then later into tanks. my build order is simple, the standard rax/gas > cc > fact > cc > starport, build hellions non stop, build 2 banshees (more if scout a roach warren, i don't even bother with banshee upgrades, they are just to keep me from dying to early roach) then 2 more fact then 2 more fact and pump out cyclones non stop. if they got a lot of lings, i get blue flame, otherwise, skip it. get armories when i remember, not really important. and these poor zergs keep dying. I'm having a lot of fun with the wins, but i think it's legit unfair and broken at my level.
and if i was good enough to harass with my banshees, it'd be even worse on the zergs. I checked your name, Your a zerg lol
no i'm not. i play ranked zerg on that account more and i'm 3400. my terran on that account is 4100 and you can see that if you open your dumb eyes. i mostly play on europe https://nonapa.com/profile/2/1/3669247
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3900 mmr zerg it says! No terran ever will say that terran is easy lol
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While I agree that the new Storm was broken, why did it get changed to begin with? This makes storm significantly weaker now and means more Protoss armies will have to rely on the balls... which makes for the worst games to play and watch
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That Ghost change comes completely out of nowhere. And I don't like it. Why must a spellcaster be this tanky?
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God forbid a spellcaster be squishy.
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On October 09 2025 03:47 baldgye wrote:While I agree that the new Storm was broken, why did it get changed to begin with? This makes storm significantly weaker now and means more Protoss armies will have to rely on the balls... which makes for the worst games to play and watch
it s fun because i love how different are all SC2 ability... But this one is like a turd in the middle of the room
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EPT
