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On September 10 2025 00:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions. It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy. It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e
I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say. But it feels like there aren't a whole lot of ways to play the game as zerg. You pretty much have to play defensive macro and there are very few ways to be aggressive that work now. Want to win in the early game for once? Think again you just can't. Playing defensive macro basically every game is tedious, hence why I say it doesn't feel 'fun' to play zerg. I don't mind playing this style sometimes, but because of how the game is you have to do it basically every game if you want to beat good players. Almost every single ZvP game is a 3 base oracle vs macro zerg opening. Is it balanced? I think it's pretty balanced. But there's extremely little variety and playing like this every game because nothing else is good isn't 'fun' to many of the zerg players that used to regularly play weeklies.
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Northern Ireland26218 Posts
On September 10 2025 01:16 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:29 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions. It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy. It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say. But it feels like there aren't a whole lot of ways to play the game as zerg. You pretty much have to play defensive macro and there are very few ways to be aggressive that work now. Want to win in the early game for once? Think again you just can't. Playing defensive macro basically every game is tedious, hence why I say it doesn't feel 'fun' to play zerg. I don't mind playing this style sometimes, but because of how the game is you have to do it basically every game if you want to beat good players. Almost every single ZvP game is a 3 base oracle vs macro zerg opening. Is it balanced? I think it's pretty balanced. But there's extremely little variety and playing like this every game because nothing else is good isn't 'fun' to many of the zerg players that used to regularly play weeklies.
Oh yeah I was agreeing with you on that, apologies if I didn’t make that clear
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On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
This is a Legacy of the Void problem, not a Zerg problem.
I'd love to be able to +2 Blink Stalker 7 Gate or Soul Train or 2-2-2 again.
Alas...
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On September 10 2025 00:45 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years? Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened. "For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
I, too, am wondering if we have been watching the same game. Didn't Serral completely fuck over Classic with one aggressive strategy after another on the world's biggest stage a month or so ago?
How many offensive Protoss strategies remain? You can Adept all in and that's been figured out since like 2018. It's due to LOTV starting with 12 workers. I would love to 1 Base 4 Gate people from time to time and would gladly accept being 6 Pooled, but alas, these strategies just don't exist anymore. You're making it sound like only Zerg has been robbed of these options. And drawing conclusions from 100-200$ weeklies as opposed to the biggest tournaments of the year is another matter I believe I don't even need to comment on. The best Zergs make so much bank from those that they can chill during the off-season.
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United States1906 Posts
On September 10 2025 15:07 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete This is a Legacy of the Void problem, not a Zerg problem. I'd love to be able to +2 Blink Stalker 7 Gate or Soul Train or 2-2-2 again. Alas...
Olli burner account?
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I suppose a self-professed Dark Lord would love two-base all-ins...
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On September 10 2025 00:45 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years? Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened. "For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
OR it's a possibillity that the top Zergs don't play in those online cups because the prize money is peanuts for them as they accumulate much more money from the big tournaments compared to Protoss players
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Haven't watched SC2 for a while but I'm glad periods where protoss is so overpowered that Clem has to whine constantly and we have to post memes about how thisisfine.jpg still yield that kind of Maestros of the Game results
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Question: What do the following statements have in common?
On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
On September 10 2025 01:16 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:29 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions. It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy. It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say.
On September 14 2025 18:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 00:45 Ciaus237 wrote:On September 10 2025 00:18 SharkStarcraft wrote:On September 09 2025 23:29 goswser wrote:On September 09 2025 15:05 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote:
great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now
even reynor loses here and there Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts. We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL. I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too. Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years? Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened. "For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same. OR it's a possibillity that the top Zergs don't play in those online cups because the prize money is peanuts for them as they accumulate much more money from the big tournaments compared to Protoss players
Answer: One can substitue "Serral" – and maybe "plus Reynor" – for "zerg" or "top zerg" and the statements lose nothing, actually they come out more true.
This is not even meant to be a comment on balance. But I always find these allusions to "top zerg players" comical, as if there was anyone besides Serral and perhaps Reynor who could seriously disturb the general picture. I mean just look at the actual the brackets of this week's weeklies. Rogue, Solar, and Shin all did actually participate, and none of them even got to the finals of even a single tournament. The only anomaly is Cham's run in OSC. Apart from that, it's really the same general picture as everywhere, like Rogue, Solar, and Shin all dropping out in the group stage of Meastros of the Game.
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The Monday Night Weekly's highest finishing Zerg was Cellsidus, who doesn't even have a Liquipedia page.
It's not just Reynor and Serral who are missing lmao.
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Bot edit.
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EPT
