After ceding the spotlight to others in the past few weeks, MaxPax stepped up as the all-around winner in the first week of September with two cup titles. herO, ShoWTimE, and Clem also won a competition a piece, while the latter's CvP saga continued to be the most intriguing subplot of the competitive scene.
However, if mech had seemed like a desperate last resort in the previous week's competitions, it proved to be a winning foundation in WardiTV Mondays #50. Clem piloted Cyclones and Hellions to victory against both herO in the semis (2-0) and ShoWTimE in the finals (3-2), looking quite strong whenever he could establish a steady, 3+ base macro foundation (VOD).
Monday Night Weeklies finally returned after an extended hiatus, restoring the unofficial tradition of having 2+ Monday cups back-to-back. Clem came close to securing a weekly double, but ended up ceding first place to herO as his versus Protoss journey took another turn.
herO and Clem resumed their hostilities from WardiTV Mondays in the upper bracket finals of MNW, where herO got his lick back with a 2-1 victory. This time, herO seemed to have a much better handle on how to deal with his opponent's mech play, only losing a game where a series of early cheeses went wrong.
Clem earned a grand finals rematch opportunity after dispatching ByuN 1-0 in the losers' final, and went right back to his mech-centric TvP. However, his failed Reaper-Hellion opener prevented him from setting mech up ideally in game one, and herO strolled to a relatively easy win.
Having already surprised the SC2 scene with his rather respectable PvP skills in the previous week of cup play, Clem decided to turn to this extreme(?) measure once more and off-raced for the rest of the series. Once again, Clem showed excellent PvP ability, tying the series up at 2-2. One could have said it was hardly noticeable that Clem wasn't a Protoss-main, at least until the final game. There, Clem made the puzzling decision to pull Probes for an ill-fated Stalker-Probe attack at a critical juncture, helping seal herO's 3-2 finals victory (VOD).
Besides the peculiar final game, the finals was also notable for the fact that herO actually missed Clem's race-switch to Protoss in game two. Clem offered a remake once he saw herO was going Gate-Nexus-Core with a Reaper wall, but herO declined and asked to play the game out. Amusingly enough, herO's opener didn't have as big an impact on the game as one might have expected, and Clem ended up taking a more or less 'legitimate' win.
Before moving on to Tuesday, it should be noted that MaxPax was eliminated early in MNW after being upset by both Creator (0-2) and HeroMarine (0-1).
After his poor showing in MNW, MaxPax bounced back in the following day's PiGosaur Cup with a convincing 3-1 victory against ByuN in the finals.
ByuN had briefly sparked some hope for bio TvP lovers in the semifinals, scoring a 3-2 upset over herO. While the first few games followed the tiresome pattern of the Terran living and dying by their sub-8-minute timings, ByuN closed the series with a fantastic macro performance on Magannatha where he adroitly executed the "just dodge storms and EMP Templars LOL" strategy.
The first game of the finals also offered ByuN a chance to show off his late-game TvP skills, as he nearly dug his way out of a massive mid-game hole by dragging the game out. ByuN actually looked better in exchanges between late-game armies, but he couldn't overcome the significant bank advantage that MaxPax had accrued beforehand.
Unfortunately, the rest of the series wasn't all that interesting—the two players split a pair of games that centered around Terran timings, and MaxPax sealed his victory with a typical Protoss macro bulldozer in game four (VOD).
With herO, Clem, and MaxPax all having won one prior cup on the week, LiuLi Cup Weekly #5 presented a chance for one player to secure a weekly double. herO dropped out of contention early after suffering a 0-2 stunner at the hands of Gerald, setting up a finals between long-time online rivals Clem and MaxPax.
Interestingly enough, Clem's faith in humanity was briefly restored during the LiuLi Cup finals, as he played traditional bio in his first game against MaxPax. Albeit, it was somewhat forced due to it being the most natural follow-up to his proxy-Marauder start, but it did eventually lead to an old school (as in, two weeks old) bio beatdown from Clem.
Clem mixed things up with Mech in game two, but ended up ceding the tying point after a very close, back and forth game. Perhaps that mech loss was what earned bio another appearance in game three, and Clem marched to a 2-1 lead through his unique skill of being better at dodging storms and multitasking than anyone else. It looked like Clem might close the series out with bio in game four, but despite inflicting severe Probe damage with a pair of Banshees, he still fell to MaxPax's storm timing.
While bio had worked out okay for Clem in the series, he decided to switch to Protoss for the deciding game five duel. MaxPax came out with the cup-deciding win, with his DT harassment and well-placed Stasis Wards clinching him game five (VOD).
September also saw the ~$2,000 OSC Mid-Season Playoffs #1 come to a close, completing the double-elimination bracket that had been sloooowly played since May. Interestingly enough, Cham entered the grand finals with the winners bracket advantage—something that might have been a shocking result back in May, but was not quite a surprise in September after seeing his strong showing in RSL Season 1.
Unfortunately for Cham, he couldn't find the offensive firepower to bust through die Mauer's defenses, as ShoWTimE rose from the lower bracket to take a 4-2 finals victory (VOD).
Clem going 2-2 against MaxPax whilst playing Terran, before then deciding to switch to Protoss in the final game, kinda makes me wonder by what score Clem thinks he should be beating MaxPax...
On September 08 2025 19:10 MJG wrote: Clem going 2-2 against MaxPax whilst playing Terran, before then deciding to switch to Protoss in the final game, kinda makes me wonder by what score Clem thinks he should be beating MaxPax...
Well in the week before, Clem actually beat MaxPax in a PvP
On September 08 2025 22:15 Garnet wrote: I do enjoy seeing pro players not playing their main races.
I enjoy it more when it seems like something for fun and variety. I don't am not so keen on it happening because some race or matchups become so absurd or tedious that pros would rather learn a new one from the ground up.
On September 08 2025 22:15 Garnet wrote: I do enjoy seeing pro players not playing their main races.
I enjoy it more when it seems like something for fun and variety. I don't am not so keen on it happening because some race or matchups become so absurd or tedious that pros would rather learn a new one from the ground up.
Tvp is fine. Clem is just over reacting since he isn’t going 30–0 before this slump. Look at the result, Both classic and hero are losing to Byun.
When clem was destroying all the toss on the weekly cups prior to this slump, NO said a word. But all a sudden he starts losing, Tvp is hard and imbalance? Get the nonsense out of here. Tvp is a solid place both for the players and a viewer.
On September 08 2025 22:15 Garnet wrote: I do enjoy seeing pro players not playing their main races.
I enjoy it more when it seems like something for fun and variety. I don't am not so keen on it happening because some race or matchups become so absurd or tedious that pros would rather learn a new one from the ground up.
Tvp is fine. Clem is just over reacting since he isn’t going 30–0 before this slump. Look at the result, Both classic and hero are losing to Byun.
When clem was destroying all the toss on the weekly cups prior to this slump, NO said a word. But all a sudden he starts losing, Tvp is hard and imbalance? Get the nonsense out of here. Tvp is a solid place both for the players and a viewer.
It is an aside but Clem in my book still deserves credit for being the only terran who last year was willing to admit that the ghost was blatantly overpowered, while the other terrans were either silent or complained about the infestor, a unit only one person, Serral, could use to its fullest potential. So I am inclined to cut Clem some slack now.
On September 09 2025 09:29 Antithesis wrote: It is an aside but Clem in my book still deserves credit for being the only terran who last year was willing to admit that the ghost was blatantly overpowered, while the other terrans were either silent or complained about the infestor, a unit only one person, Serral, could use to its fullest potential. So I am inclined to cut Clem some slack now.
Yeah, he’s certainly not alone either but I’ve always felt Clem is minded to approach balance in quite an even-handed fashion, so I take his current views in good faith
Plus I mean it’s not like he’s messing around with PvT in weeklies, he’s committed for months and played it in EWC, he’s basically unique in experiencing a matchup from both sides for months and months
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
On September 09 2025 01:33 MJG wrote: The patch is not fine.
Clem is over reacting a little.
Both can be true at the same time.
We need to undo this patch and roll back to a better one.
Yeah like better times where we would watch Terrans drop mines into mineral lines at worse coming out even and at best winning the game.
Delusional takes.
Regardless of my personal dislike for Widow Mines, it remains a fact that many Legacy of the Void patches performed better than this one. The balance and tournament statistics speak for themselves. We should roll back to a better patch, preferably one with no (or minimal) Balance Council input.
The only delusional takes are the ones that believe self-interested (consciously or otherwise) professional players with no game development experience are going to be able to fix the mess of their own making.
On September 09 2025 01:33 MJG wrote: The patch is not fine.
Clem is over reacting a little.
Both can be true at the same time.
We need to undo this patch and roll back to a better one.
Yeah like better times where we would watch Terrans drop mines into mineral lines at worse coming out even and at best winning the game.
Delusional takes.
Regardless of my personal dislike for Widow Mines, it remains a fact that many Legacy of the Void patches performed better than this one. The balance and tournament statistics speak for themselves. We should roll back to a better patch, preferably one with no (or minimal) Balance Council input.
The only delusional takes are the ones that believe self-interested (consciously or otherwise) professional players with no game development experience are going to be able to fix the mess of their own making.
Yeah for the top 8 prize money tournaments so far this year we've had 3 Terran, 2 Protoss, 2 Zerg winners. I don't think I need to repeat it.
On September 09 2025 01:33 MJG wrote: The patch is not fine.
Clem is over reacting a little.
Both can be true at the same time.
We need to undo this patch and roll back to a better one.
Yeah like better times where we would watch Terrans drop mines into mineral lines at worse coming out even and at best winning the game.
Delusional takes.
Regardless of my personal dislike for Widow Mines, it remains a fact that many Legacy of the Void patches performed better than this one. The balance and tournament statistics speak for themselves. We should roll back to a better patch, preferably one with no (or minimal) Balance Council input.
The only delusional takes are the ones that believe self-interested (consciously or otherwise) professional players with no game development experience are going to be able to fix the mess of their own making.
Yeah for the top 8 prize money tournaments so far this year we've had 3 Terran, 2 Protoss, 2 Zerg winners.
It doesn't really matter if tournament statistics look balanced when the win rate statistics don't. The "and" in the sentence that you emboldened isn't there for decoration.
This is because community perception is important and, as things stand, PvT and TvZ are both heavily imbalanced according to Liquipedia* win rate statistics.
There are several Legacy of the Void patches with tournament statistics and win rate statistics that outperform the current patch.
There's no reason not to roll back to one of those.
*Aligulac also suggests that PvZ is imbalanced, but I think that this is due to Aligulac including too many results from the early stages of tournaments, where lower-level players get squashed by higher-level opponents. This should more-or-less even out across all match-ups, but high-level (or even mid-level) Zerg players don't have the same participation rates as their Protoss and Terran counterparts, which means it doesn't even out. As a result, all Zerg balance statistics on Aligulac should be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions.
It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy.
It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years?
Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened.
"For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions.
It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy.
It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e
I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say. But it feels like there aren't a whole lot of ways to play the game as zerg. You pretty much have to play defensive macro and there are very few ways to be aggressive that work now. Want to win in the early game for once? Think again you just can't. Playing defensive macro basically every game is tedious, hence why I say it doesn't feel 'fun' to play zerg. I don't mind playing this style sometimes, but because of how the game is you have to do it basically every game if you want to beat good players. Almost every single ZvP game is a 3 base oracle vs macro zerg opening. Is it balanced? I think it's pretty balanced. But there's extremely little variety and playing like this every game because nothing else is good isn't 'fun' to many of the zerg players that used to regularly play weeklies.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions.
It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy.
It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e
I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say. But it feels like there aren't a whole lot of ways to play the game as zerg. You pretty much have to play defensive macro and there are very few ways to be aggressive that work now. Want to win in the early game for once? Think again you just can't. Playing defensive macro basically every game is tedious, hence why I say it doesn't feel 'fun' to play zerg. I don't mind playing this style sometimes, but because of how the game is you have to do it basically every game if you want to beat good players. Almost every single ZvP game is a 3 base oracle vs macro zerg opening. Is it balanced? I think it's pretty balanced. But there's extremely little variety and playing like this every game because nothing else is good isn't 'fun' to many of the zerg players that used to regularly play weeklies.
Oh yeah I was agreeing with you on that, apologies if I didn’t make that clear
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years?
Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened.
"For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
I, too, am wondering if we have been watching the same game. Didn't Serral completely fuck over Classic with one aggressive strategy after another on the world's biggest stage a month or so ago?
How many offensive Protoss strategies remain? You can Adept all in and that's been figured out since like 2018. It's due to LOTV starting with 12 workers. I would love to 1 Base 4 Gate people from time to time and would gladly accept being 6 Pooled, but alas, these strategies just don't exist anymore. You're making it sound like only Zerg has been robbed of these options. And drawing conclusions from 100-200$ weeklies as opposed to the biggest tournaments of the year is another matter I believe I don't even need to comment on. The best Zergs make so much bank from those that they can chill during the off-season.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years?
Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened.
"For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
OR it's a possibillity that the top Zergs don't play in those online cups because the prize money is peanuts for them as they accumulate much more money from the big tournaments compared to Protoss players
Haven't watched SC2 for a while but I'm glad periods where protoss is so overpowered that Clem has to whine constantly and we have to post memes about how thisisfine.jpg still yield that kind of Maestros of the Game results
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
I mean they have adapted, the answer is to play a standard macro game 90%+ of games because, over time their aggressive options have diminished in variety and viability. Partly through patches, partly through reliable counters being figured out by players of the other two factions.
It’s been a clear direction of travel, especially in Legacy.
It’s a complaint I hear a lot, and as gowser said, it’s a matter of ‘fun’ for many, not necessarily a complaint that the faction sucks or is way harder to play or w/e
I don't think zerg sucks at all, at the top level it might even be favored vs toss, vs terran I think it's a bit hard to say.
On September 09 2025 13:45 redloser wrote: great writeup, but man haven't seen a zerg winning a single cup in weeks now even reynor loses here and there
Top Zerg players rarely sign up for weekly tournaments, and certainly not in the same numbers as their Protoss and Terran counterparts.
We can't force Reynor to care more about the weeklies than he does about LoL.
I'd argue that the game hasn't been 'fun' as a zerg player in quite some time and that's how we got here. Balance has pigeonholed zerg into a place where it's a defensive race with very little agency in controlling the flow of the game and almost no aggressive options that are good. The 'cheese' in ZvP now is like, maxed out hydra timing attack and an almost maxed out attack with queen drops. Against terran there basically is no type of aggressive build at all. When you combine that with the amount of skill it takes to play this defensive Serral-esque style well enough to win games, it's led to frustration and most zerg players just giving up and not bothering to try for quite some time now. So you're left with a few of the very top zerg players good enough to deal with it, and almost no one else bothering with trying to compete
God forbid Zerg players for once in their lives have to figure out a strategy for adapting to the meta too.
Have we been seeing the same game for the last few years?
Zerg has had their options culled off every patch the balance council has released. Every adaptation and every aggressive build has been nerfed. Even the standard defensive play has been nerfed. Lategame broodlord sieging massacred (it was dumb, but basically as interactive as playing Zerg vs Tempest). With the supply drop change even ye old baneling bust has been weakened.
"For once in their lives"... piss off. An entire faction of the top playerbase has basically decided that playing in weeklies is not worth the effort or tedium, and we're getting towards a second faction doing the same.
OR it's a possibillity that the top Zergs don't play in those online cups because the prize money is peanuts for them as they accumulate much more money from the big tournaments compared to Protoss players
Answer: One can substitue "Serral" – and maybe "plus Reynor" – for "zerg" or "top zerg" and the statements lose nothing, actually they come out more true.
This is not even meant to be a comment on balance. But I always find these allusions to "top zerg players" comical, as if there was anyone besides Serral and perhaps Reynor who could seriously disturb the general picture. I mean just look at the actual the brackets of this week's weeklies. Rogue, Solar, and Shin all did actually participate, and none of them even got to the finals of even a single tournament. The only anomaly is Cham's run in OSC. Apart from that, it's really the same general picture as everywhere, like Rogue, Solar, and Shin all dropping out in the group stage of Meastros of the Game.
EPT
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Clem piloted Cyclones and Hellions to victory against both herO in the semis (2-0) and ShoWTimE in the finals (3-2), looking quite strong whenever he could establish a steady, 3+ base macro foundation (VOD).![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/misc/weeklies/mnw21.png)
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