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On September 03 2025 05:26 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2025 00:11 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 02 2025 23:19 Balnazza wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis It's not about Zerg not winning these tournaments. Tournament wins were a horrible way to describe the state of Protoss, they are a horrible way to describe the state of Zerg now. When Serral and Reynor, the only two S-Tier Zergs in the worlds, don't play the tournament, of course chances of a Zerg winner deplete rapidly, especially when other S-Tier players like Clem, herO or Classic compete. But to not have any Zerg at all in this is...a bit concerning to say the least. On September 02 2025 23:08 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis 5 years? It started in 2018 which saw a tier 4 Zerg player dominate a 3-time world champion off the back of some of the worst balance since early Wings of Liberty and never stopped. Ah yes, 2018, that horrible year for Protoss when almost half of the BlizzCon players were Protoss...  PvT was also awful in 2018 and only didn't see massive balance changes because Maru kept winning GSLs. His TvP magic famously came to an end when he ran into someone who knew it just as well as he did from being on the other side of it all year in practice games. Ironically, early 2018 TvZ was in by far the state it has ever been in SC2 from a game design standpoint prior to the Raven nerf which happened because Serral couldn't handle them. Both Dark and Rogue figured it out and it wouldn't have been as strong on a better map pool e.g. Backwater let the Terran get 4 bases for nearly free. This is astute commentary, 2018 TvZ was indeed by far the most state it's ever been.
I'm glad we have people like you to point out that I forgot a word instead of contributing absolutely anything intelligent or meaningful to the conversation.
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United States1923 Posts
On September 03 2025 06:29 RogueTheGOAT wrote:
5 years? It started in 2018 which saw a tier 4 Zerg player dominate a 3-time world champion off the back of some of the worst balance since early Wings of Liberty and never stopped.
I hate to tell you, but Rogue won two World Championships on the back of the same overpowered hydras Serral used in 2018. But, there's more. It's also worth mentioning that Serral's first notable finish actually occurred in the second half of the 2017—the same period of time during which Rogue won three straight tournaments.
A name change might be in order because you can't diminish Serral's achievements without diminishing Rogue's, as well.
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On September 03 2025 00:11 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2025 23:19 Balnazza wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis It's not about Zerg not winning these tournaments. Tournament wins were a horrible way to describe the state of Protoss, they are a horrible way to describe the state of Zerg now. When Serral and Reynor, the only two S-Tier Zergs in the worlds, don't play the tournament, of course chances of a Zerg winner deplete rapidly, especially when other S-Tier players like Clem, herO or Classic compete. But to not have any Zerg at all in this is...a bit concerning to say the least. On September 02 2025 23:08 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis 5 years? It started in 2018 which saw a tier 4 Zerg player dominate a 3-time world champion off the back of some of the worst balance since early Wings of Liberty and never stopped. Ah yes, 2018, that horrible year for Protoss when almost half of the BlizzCon players were Protoss... PvT was also awful in 2018 and only didn't see massive balance changes because Maru kept winning GSLs. His TvP magic famously came to an end when he ran into someone who knew it just as well as he did from being on the other side of it all year in practice games. Ironically, early 2018 TvZ was in by far the best state it has ever been in SC2 from a game design standpoint prior to the Raven nerf which happened because Serral couldn't handle them. Both Dark and Rogue figured it out and it wouldn't have been as strong on a better map pool e.g. Backwater let the Terran get 4 bases for nearly free.
Are Serrals parents filthy rich or something or why would Blizzard in early 2018 care what "one of the random EU players" thinks?
Also, sorry...just for clarity sakes, since I finally understood that one comment of yours: Did you actually call Scarlett a "Tier 4 Zerg"?
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On September 03 2025 06:47 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2025 06:29 RogueTheGOAT wrote:
5 years? It started in 2018 which saw a tier 4 Zerg player dominate a 3-time world champion off the back of some of the worst balance since early Wings of Liberty and never stopped. I hate to tell you, but Rogue won two World Championships on the back of the same overpowered hydras Serral used in 2018. But, there's more. It's also worth mentioning that Serral's first notable finish actually occurred in the second half of the 2017—the same period of time during which Rogue won three straight tournaments. A name change might be in order because you can't diminish Serral's achievements without diminishing Rogue's, as well.
You do remember that there was a huge patch after the 2017 Blizzcon, right? e.g. Deleted the mothership core. Using the same units is not a gotcha when the entire ZvP meta was completely different.
On September 03 2025 06:59 Balnazza wrote:
Are Serrals parents filthy rich or something or why would Blizzard in early 2018 care what "one of the random EU players" thinks?
Blizzard was hellbent on having a non-Korean player to hype and Serral was the choice at that point. (won the first circuit event, made top 4 at Katowice and WESG) They changed the Blizzcon rules and didn't tell anyone ahead of time to try to rig a Maru Serral finals though they forgot that they had never actually made TvP playable.
On September 03 2025 06:59 Balnazza wrote:
Also, sorry...just for clarity sakes, since I finally understood that one comment of yours: Did you actually call Scarlett a "Tier 4 Zerg"?
Yes.
At the start of 2018:
Tier 1: World Champions (Life + Rogue)
Tier 2: Champions (Dark, Solar, SoO [that Kespa cup counts], TRUE, Elazer, etc.)
Tier 3: Championship Contenders (Serral, Snute, ByuL, etc.)
Tier 4: Other
Scarlett was very much not a championship contender at that point. Her performance in 2017 WCS Circuit events were: Didn't make the field, 2 top 16, and 1 top 8.
To be even more accurate, I should probably split Korean and non-Korean champions and Korean and non-Korean contenders into different groups and drop her to tier 6 since Korea was still king though the cracks were showing (e.g. Neeb's Kespa cup win, 2016 and 2017 Blizzcon group stages).
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On September 03 2025 06:29 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2025 05:26 Glorfindelio wrote:On September 03 2025 00:11 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 02 2025 23:19 Balnazza wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis It's not about Zerg not winning these tournaments. Tournament wins were a horrible way to describe the state of Protoss, they are a horrible way to describe the state of Zerg now. When Serral and Reynor, the only two S-Tier Zergs in the worlds, don't play the tournament, of course chances of a Zerg winner deplete rapidly, especially when other S-Tier players like Clem, herO or Classic compete. But to not have any Zerg at all in this is...a bit concerning to say the least. On September 02 2025 23:08 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 02 2025 22:47 TeamMamba wrote:On September 02 2025 12:53 CicadaSC wrote:On September 02 2025 03:42 LostUsername100 wrote:
Holy shit, where is Zerg? Zerg are extinct. I asked Reynor today what he thought about his Maestros group and he was not happy because "protoss" yes, he didnt comment on who he was facing, i dont think he cared too much, he was just tilted because its protoss. Zerg are tired of playing 100 ZvPs in a row every online tournament they sign up for. And now that Clem is practicing PvZ and PvP to fully play protoss until next patch, it is only going to get worse. Zerg players perceive ZvP to be in a bad spot, so of course they don't want to play. Of course Serral almost never plays online cups, Maru doesn't either, but for protoss all the top guys play so that doesn't help either. Geez Zergs start crying just because they think current patch is not good for them. Where were they when Zergs were completely dominating Protoss for the past 5 years to the point of extinction. Cool Protoss are only winning these online small cups. Wake us up when Protoss actually wins a world championship Zergs have no place or right to complain about balance until we see someone like showtime beating any of the top Zergs at a regular basis 5 years? It started in 2018 which saw a tier 4 Zerg player dominate a 3-time world champion off the back of some of the worst balance since early Wings of Liberty and never stopped. Ah yes, 2018, that horrible year for Protoss when almost half of the BlizzCon players were Protoss... PvT was also awful in 2018 and only didn't see massive balance changes because Maru kept winning GSLs. His TvP magic famously came to an end when he ran into someone who knew it just as well as he did from being on the other side of it all year in practice games. Ironically, early 2018 TvZ was in by far the state it has ever been in SC2 from a game design standpoint prior to the Raven nerf which happened because Serral couldn't handle them. Both Dark and Rogue figured it out and it wouldn't have been as strong on a better map pool e.g. Backwater let the Terran get 4 bases for nearly free. This is astute commentary, 2018 TvZ was indeed by far the most state it's ever been. I'm glad we have people like you to point out that I forgot a word instead of contributing absolutely anything intelligent or meaningful to the conversation.
I was actually insinuating that your original point about supposed balance was equally as meaningful with or without the missing word:p
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Blizzard was hellbent on having a non-Korean player to hype and Serral was the choice at that point. (won the first circuit event, made top 4 at Katowice and WESG) They changed the Blizzcon rules and didn't tell anyone ahead of time to try to rig a Maru Serral finals though they forgot that they had never actually made TvP playable.
...suuuuureeee...
Yes.
At the start of 2018:
Tier 1: World Champions (Life + Rogue)
Tier 2: Champions (Dark, Solar, SoO [that Kespa cup counts], TRUE, Elazer, etc.)
Tier 3: Championship Contenders (Serral, Snute, ByuL, etc.)
Tier 4: Other
So Life was still Tier 1 at the start of 2018, two years after he got banned? Snute still Tier 3 months after he retired?
Damn, that's a slow-ass changing Tier-List...was FruitDealer still Tier 2 or Tier 3 at the start of '18, I need to know
All jokes aside: Scarlett winning that IEM was clearly a surprise (and it was mostly on the back of ZvZ, beating Serral and Elazer), but winning the finals against sOs wasn't particularly shocking, he himself is after all someone who punched way above his paygrade when he won his World Championship. There is a reason why Mizenhauer listed him at #8.
Not to mention: Zerg was apparently so overpowered at that time that only one Korean even made it to the closed-qualifier, after that it was mostly just protoss...
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On September 02 2025 23:30 Waxangel wrote:
I want to point out that Clem is still in 'fuck bio' mode this week, playing mostly mech as Terran (might by exclusively mech; didn't check all his lower round games) and some PvP (very credibly, btw)
Having to adapt or develop new strategies in a strategy game should be expected.
Battlemech gives Terran the tools required to quickly expand behind feints/harassment, which is what Legacy of the Void is (unfortunately) designed around, and it reduces the effectiveness of Psionic Storm. It actually makes sense to go for Battlemech in the current meta, and more Terrans should probably be taking it up.
Protoss has had to adapt to several core redesigns (e.g. the way Chrono Boost works, the removal of the Mothership Core, constant fiddling with Pylon Overcharge, constant fiddling with Shield Batteries, addition and then removal of Battery Overcharge, and the recent addition of Energy Overcharge) throughout Legacy of the Void. Now that it's time for another race to change their habits, the toys are going out of the pram?
I feel a great sense of schadenfreude.
But we all know how this ends. Protoss will get nerfed/redesigned into oblivion and won't win another S-tier event for several years, just like what happened last time. Protoss simply aren't allowed to do well without 2/3 of the community flipping out. Blizzard's final patch was statistically more balanced than what we currently have but the community consistently demanded it was changed because god forbid Void Rays be useful lmao.
EDIT:
I wonder what Clem thinks about the current TvZ statistics given that he seems very upset by PvT...
Self-interested professional players should've never been allowed to balance the game.
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On September 03 2025 15:38 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2025 23:30 Waxangel wrote:
I want to point out that Clem is still in 'fuck bio' mode this week, playing mostly mech as Terran (might by exclusively mech; didn't check all his lower round games) and some PvP (very credibly, btw) Having to adapt or develop new strategies in a strategy game should be expected. Battlemech gives Terran the tools required to quickly expand behind feints/harassment, which is what Legacy of the Void is (unfortunately) designed around, and it reduces the effectiveness of Psionic Storm. It actually makes sense to go for Battlemech in the current meta, and more Terrans should probably be taking it up. Protoss has had to adapt to several core redesigns ( e.g. the way Chrono Boost works, the removal of the Mothership Core, constant fiddling with Pylon Overcharge, constant fiddling with Shield Batteries, addition and then removal of Battery Overcharge, and the recent addition of Energy Overcharge) throughout Legacy of the Void. Now that it's time for another race to change their habits, the toys are going out of the pram? I feel a great sense of schadenfreude. But we all know how this ends. Protoss will get nerfed/redesigned into oblivion and won't win another S-tier event for several years, just like what happened last time. Protoss simply aren't allowed to do well without 2/3 of the community flipping out. Blizzard's final patch was statistically more balanced than what we currently have but the community consistently demanded it was changed because god forbid Void Rays be useful lmao.EDIT: I wonder what Clem thinks about the current TvZ statistics given that he seems very upset by PvT... Self-interested professional players should've never been allowed to balance the game.
I get you and I actually don't think battlemech is complete garbage in the current meta but you can't reasonably say energy recharge HTs are fine. It shuts down bio completely while allowing the P to get his eco massively ahead. I don't say we need to nerf toss into oblivion, but tuning something about the HT + energy recharge (e.g. recharge = 50 energy instead of 100 - makes sense ; 50 energy spent on the Nexus, 50 given to something else -, 1 storm less to deal with on the first push should make some difference and you can adjust something else if that's not enough) has to happen soon and would probably get the mu close to balanced - probably still rather P favored, but not by quite a margin like right now.
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On September 03 2025 19:10 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2025 15:38 MJG wrote:On September 02 2025 23:30 Waxangel wrote:
I want to point out that Clem is still in 'fuck bio' mode this week, playing mostly mech as Terran (might by exclusively mech; didn't check all his lower round games) and some PvP (very credibly, btw) Having to adapt or develop new strategies in a strategy game should be expected. Battlemech gives Terran the tools required to quickly expand behind feints/harassment, which is what Legacy of the Void is (unfortunately) designed around, and it reduces the effectiveness of Psionic Storm. It actually makes sense to go for Battlemech in the current meta, and more Terrans should probably be taking it up. Protoss has had to adapt to several core redesigns ( e.g. the way Chrono Boost works, the removal of the Mothership Core, constant fiddling with Pylon Overcharge, constant fiddling with Shield Batteries, addition and then removal of Battery Overcharge, and the recent addition of Energy Overcharge) throughout Legacy of the Void. Now that it's time for another race to change their habits, the toys are going out of the pram? I feel a great sense of schadenfreude. But we all know how this ends. Protoss will get nerfed/redesigned into oblivion and won't win another S-tier event for several years, just like what happened last time. Protoss simply aren't allowed to do well without 2/3 of the community flipping out. Blizzard's final patch was statistically more balanced than what we currently have but the community consistently demanded it was changed because god forbid Void Rays be useful lmao.EDIT: I wonder what Clem thinks about the current TvZ statistics given that he seems very upset by PvT... Self-interested professional players should've never been allowed to balance the game. I get you and I actually don't think battlemech is complete garbage in the current meta but you can't reasonably say energy recharge HTs are fine. It shuts down bio completely while allowing the P to get his eco massively ahead. I don't say we need to nerf toss into oblivion, but tuning something about the HT + energy recharge (e.g. recharge = 50 energy instead of 100 - makes sense ; 50 energy spent on the Nexus, 50 given to something else -, 1 storm less to deal with on the first push should make some difference and you can adjust something else if that's not enough) has to happen soon and would probably get the mu close to balanced - probably still rather P favored, but not by quite a margin like right now.
I don't think things are fine and your suggestion is perfectly reasonable.
But it's clear that the backlash is only so loud because it's Protoss players who are benefitting.
I don't think win rate statistics are great for describing balance, but since July the Liquipedia win rate statistics are:
PvT = 56%, TvZ = 56%, ZvP = 49%.
Zoom out to include all win rates since the patch and we get:
PvT = 51%, TvZ = 56%, ZvP = 51%.
The community should be equally (if not more) angry about Terran vs. Zerg, but that wouldn't involve beating the red-headed stepchild so barely anyone mentions it.
You'll have to excuse me if I indulge in some schadenfreude.
It's quite satisfying!
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No mention of Clem and rest of Terran complaint to Protoss OP?
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I concur. 2018 TvZ was definitely one of the match-ups of all time
also good guy Clem for finally revealing the super OP cyclone plays that have been plaguing TvP this whole time. maybe now we can get on with those long overdue lock-on nerfs!
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Holy shit amazing that Clem played Mech TvP, thank you Clem for showing mech games!!
Hopefully the community and balance council will try to keep it somewhat viable for those who like that playstyle...
I suppose it will be significantly less viable though if the Cyclone bug is reverted, sadge
I'm amazed at how viable and rounded Clem made it look. Each game he lost he made some obvious mistakes he could improve on (like not repairing that PF), or he lost due to other reasons (proxy marauder opening and wasn't ready for the all-in). I suppose Cyclones having a little more dps makes the traditional tank hellbat composition a lot more rounded, coupled with his awesome micro he gets a lot of mileage out of the lock ons.
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On September 04 2025 04:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Holy shit amazing that Clem played Mech TvP, thank you Clem for showing mech games!!
Hopefully the community and balance council will try to keep it somewhat viable for those who like that playstyle...
I suppose it will be significantly less viable though if the Cyclone bug is reverted, sadge
I'm amazed at how viable and rounded Clem made it look. Each game he lost he made some obvious mistakes he could improve on (like not repairing that PF), or he lost due to other reasons (proxy marauder opening and wasn't ready for the all-in). I suppose Cyclones having a little more dps makes the traditional tank hellbat composition a lot more rounded, coupled with his awesome micro he gets a lot of mileage out of the lock ons.
He played it again in the LiuLi Cup yesterday.
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Generally speaking I'd say Protoss dominating just 'looks worse' than the other two races. Not because people just hate Protoss (... well... let's say 'not only'), but also because of how games with a dominating Protoss usually play out.
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It is because the community hates Protoss.
You're allowed to say it out loud.
The community wasn't nearly as vocal about Zerg being broken at the turn of the decade.
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Queens should probably cost 150 minerals.
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Clem been crushing tvp for a year straight , then a a sudden he goes into a stomp and lose a few tvp and cries about imbalance. Comical.
Maybe he just “adjust” his playing style / strategies since everyone else has been
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On September 05 2025 02:15 TeamMamba wrote:
Clem been crushing tvp for a year straight , then a a sudden he goes into a stomp and lose a few tvp and cries about imbalance. Comical.
Maybe he just “adjust” his playing style / strategies since everyone else has been
He has adjusted to incorporate more Battlemech.
It's working pretty well.
But I still think the current patch is as dumb as a sack of rocks.
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On September 05 2025 02:15 TeamMamba wrote:
Clem been crushing tvp for a year straight , then a a sudden he goes into a stomp and lose a few tvp and cries about imbalance. Comical.
Maybe he just “adjust” his playing style / strategies since everyone else has been
except "everyone else" have also been losing TvP left and right.
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EPT
