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Yay, a power ranking. As per usual, I'm largely in agreement with Wax' evaluation, although I'd put Clem very slightly ahead of Serral for this reason alone:
On July 22 2025 09:48 dysenterymd wrote:
I'd probably go with Clem #1 and Serral #2 though, simply because Clem is now decently favored against Serral in the H2H
All other placements seem fair enough. Classic feels stronger than herO at the moment, but I guess it's reasonable to give herO's long period of being the best (offline) protoss due credit.
Excited to see how it will play out.
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On July 22 2025 12:36 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2025 11:06 CicadaSC wrote:On July 22 2025 10:28 WombaT wrote:On July 22 2025 09:47 CicadaSC wrote:On July 22 2025 09:14 WombaT wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 CicadaSC wrote:
You don't rank the tournament winners of 2025 lans high enough. Maru winning Dallas needs to be bumped up Serral under performed every lan this year how he #1 favorite? And rogue should be higher too you make decent argument but still talk about military when Reynor gets ro8s and rogue get 2nd you say u put higher cuz Reynor 2020 good but rogue went military so gg but rogue just 2 so how can say? Serral is 116–56 (67.44%) in games and 33–10 (76.74%) in matches. Maru is 47–26 (64.38%) in games and 19–9 (67.86%) in matches Looking into 2025 results beyond those numbers, for Maru, outside of Dallas, he has two set wins all year that weren’t qualifiers for tournaments. well look at those numbers. maru has played far less. but he already won lan while serral didnt. personally i value lan a lot more when we are talking about a lan tournament ewc. you can say he only has 2 set wins, or you can say it only took him 47 total wins to win a major tournament and serral played almost 200 games and still hasnt won. so yeah serral has been putting in more reps but maru has a higher PR if that makes sense. thats how i see it at least Stara Zagora was a LAN event that Serral got the silver in. His other LAN was a respectable but disappointing Ro8 finish. Maru won a LAN, lost first round in another, second round in another and doesn’t have nearly the online results of Serral this year. It’s not 2017 or whatever other past point you choose, there simply aren’t that many LAN events anymore, and A-S tier online tournaments filled that gap. And in that domain Serral has outperformed Maru in 2025 by a significant margin. Dallas is an impressive prize for Maru and he showed a higher level than he’s shown elsewhere, likely down to managing his injuries. Given recent records is he beating Serral if he 3-2s Classic rather than losing 2-3? Probably not I’d wager. Or Clem also exiting in the Ro8. Let's compare those results side by side. Maru won a big tournament, Serral got 2nd in a smaller but still competitive tournament. Serral got a ro.8 finish, Maru got a ro.8 finish. Result wise for 2025 lans it's a slight edge to Maru imo. It's a bit tricky because Marus ro.8 GSL Serral wasn't competing and missing many global players, but the same can be said for Serrals BGE run, it was also missing a lot of players, such as Maru vice versa. But on the biggest stage of the year thus far, and with the most stacked player lineup, Maru came out on top. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Maru had a very friendly road to the championship. Biggest reason why he won was because classic eliminated Serral.
Well that is another point I didn't even think of, and could even be used to strengthen my argument. Serral has a chance to face Classic in Round 2. Maybe Serral would be favored vs Maru, or whoever else but he has to get through a very scary opponent early on and with that I think his chances go down.
In this scenario, if he does lose to Classic, its not complete doom and gloom because he would have to face either Rogue or a Play-In bracket opponent next, which he should be favored against but then in the playoff bracket that means he would have to face a #1 seed immediately from the ro.8, and just have possibly the hardest route to the championship. So Maru winning because he didn't have to play serral/clem, or serral losing because he got sniped by classic could come back to bite him again in this tournament.
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My mind believes in hero, but my heart is with Clem.
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BTW: a shame that we will not get to see MaxPax in this event!!!!!!
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Classic should be nr 1 on this list
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On July 22 2025 16:36 Drahkn wrote:
Classic should be nr 1 on this list
I wouldn't oppose this. we saw what he did to clem repeatedly recently and he also beat serral so this guy is the real deal.
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Classic's lowest position in a tournament this year is 4th.
If you expand to 2024 then Maru is the favourite.
I appreciate how high herO is despite him and Clem not having the hottest streak at the latest, for me they are in the same camp, they can blow up or peter out. I don't see Reynor in the same position, you can't win a world championship with only 3 month practice, or what it's been. The fact is Protosses and Clem are the ones that have practiced the most during this downtime we had. Serral and Maru are different though, they never played in everything and still win the big leagues.
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I love btw how none of us noticed that Lancer couldn't possibly ranked #18, atleast not in the final standings, because he isn't in the Playin
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Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 22 2025 18:00 ejozl wrote:
Classic's lowest position in a tournament this year is 4th.
If you expand to 2024 then Maru is the favourite.
I appreciate how high herO is despite him and Clem not having the hottest streak at the latest, for me they are in the same camp, they can blow up or peter out. I don't see Reynor in the same position, you can't win a world championship with only 3 month practice, or what it's been. The fact is Protosses and Clem are the ones that have practiced the most during this downtime we had. Serral and Maru are different though, they never played in everything and still win the big leagues.
Serral’s average position over his entire career is slightly better than fourth.
On the bolded, how?
Serral only dropped 1 series in the whole of 2024 to someone not named Clem (to Maru, who he then swept in the rematch), won multiple tournaments, including a dominant Katowice performance and had a very strong EWC performance before Clem smacked him in the finals.
Serral went 86.21% in offline match win rate in 2024. Clem went 79.55%. Maru’s 75.56% is still very impressive, but you can’t be the favourite if you’re around 10% off Serral’s win cadence in both 2024 and 2025
Maru’s true level is something of a mystery. He’s clearly in the category of ‘dangerous and can win if he’s cooking’, but based on the evidence below a few players who’ve generally outperformed him.
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On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time.
This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know).
I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further.
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United States1870 Posts
On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know). I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further.
Maru was receiving treatment at a hospital for his shoulder before StarCraft II was even released. He's always been injured.
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Love the power ranking, to get people to discuss and make the community active. So thanks a lot, Wax!
Heart, in order of preference:
1. My boy - Maru
2. Putting an end to the decade-long Protoss drought - herO
3. Craziest underdog story - Lancer/Cyan (repeat of Oliveira? And he only got in last minute because of a scandal)
Head, in order of my guess on the probability of winning:
1. The top player rn - Clem
2. Just a cool player to turn around an entire race - herO
3. If he shows up - Maru
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On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know).
Wax mentioned 2010-2016 for a reason. 2016 is when Proleague ended.
Without a stable route for talented Korean amateurs to practice, progress, and become top-tier professionals in their own right, the top of the Korean scene has stagnated to the point that going into the military no longer ends careers. The top Korean players haven't gotten better, they've slowly regressed due to a lack of fresh blood.
It has nothing to do with the meta settling. It's just that everything after Proleague is an ever paler shadow of what came before.
I still love watching though!
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On July 23 2025 07:57 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know). I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further. Maru was receiving treatment at a hospital for his shoulder before StarCraft II was even released. He's always been injured.
Uh Interesting, Do you know more? I always assumed it was due to his SC2 career. I guess playing SC2 doesnt help neither.
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United States1870 Posts
On July 23 2025 16:40 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 07:57 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know). I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further. Maru was receiving treatment at a hospital for his shoulder before StarCraft II was even released. He's always been injured. Uh Interesting, Do you know more? I always assumed it was due to his SC2 career. I guess playing SC2 doesnt help neither.
He was playing BW before StarCraft II, but Maru's mom, in an interview with SSL, said that they turned down a spot on SKT because Maru was already getting treatment for his shoulder.
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Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 23 2025 22:52 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 16:40 Argonauta wrote:On July 23 2025 07:57 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know). I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further. Maru was receiving treatment at a hospital for his shoulder before StarCraft II was even released. He's always been injured. Uh Interesting, Do you know more? I always assumed it was due to his SC2 career. I guess playing SC2 doesnt help neither. He was playing BW before StarCraft II, but Maru's mom, in an interview with SSL, said that they turned down a spot on SKT because Maru was already getting treatment for his shoulder.
Interesting Miz, first I’d ever heard that and rather interesting!
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It's fine and dandy the win rate and avg placement, but serral was surpassed this year by classic and by maru, even if you expand that to 2024. Serral is still the big name that he is, but I think his form is more in question if we are to be fair. His 2024 was insane, but we honestly don't know about 2025.
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France12874 Posts
On July 23 2025 22:52 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 16:40 Argonauta wrote:On July 23 2025 07:57 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 23 2025 01:55 rwala wrote:On July 22 2025 08:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 22 2025 08:15 lokol4890 wrote:
I get why maru was "only" top 4 here even though I disagree, but I'm still having a hard time understanding the serral #1, clem #2. Serral's best result the past couple of months is losing to clem. Instead, the pick is reliant on the ever subjective "dominant for 7 years" point, despite clear evidence there were several years in that time span where he wasn't the top player, let alone dominant.
That said, I appreciate the writeup. We'll see soon enough how everyone does. I think one of the bigger changes of the post-Blizzard scene (2020+) is that people who are good are just always gonna be good, and short term results really don't matter quite as much. It's a huge difference from like 2010-2016 where careers were like three years long, and your 'prime' could be like 8 months long. It's boring in a way, but the big picture kinda demands the same-ish people be in the top four all the time. This is a great point, tho I’m curious why you chalk it up to the post-Blizzard era specifically? Strategy games tend to have high early volatility and then decreasing volatility over time as stable metas develop and start to cycle in and out. Which then makes it less about strategy and more about skill expression/execution. Hero is a very big exception here, tho I’m honestly not sure why unless his weird plays are somehow very off meta/unpredictable (I’m not a good enough player to know). I’d probably put Clem at 1 and Maru at 7. I suspect Maru is still injured that’s the only reason why I’d drop him a bit further. Maru was receiving treatment at a hospital for his shoulder before StarCraft II was even released. He's always been injured. Uh Interesting, Do you know more? I always assumed it was due to his SC2 career. I guess playing SC2 doesnt help neither. He was playing BW before StarCraft II, but Maru's mom, in an interview with SSL, said that they turned down a spot on SKT because Maru was already getting treatment for his shoulder.
Pretty interesting piece of trivia. Couldn’t they « solve » the issue with physical therapy / working out though?
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EPT
