On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Stats made the finals of a KIL or WC eight times and won twice. Parting made one such final and lost.
Stats also had a higher peak, a higher win rate in KIL and he was better in a Proleague.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
Polt. Not convinced? Check his liquipedia again. Or you can also put Taeja.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
Polt. Not convinced? Check his liquipedia again. Or you can also put Taeja.
Taeja was who first came to mind, but Polt is another good pick.
TY is a good pick also, I can make an argument for him as well. So that's why I said I wasn't sure about it.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Easy to forget since Trap won exactly 1 MLG before 2020 and nothing else. Before 2020 he was totally irrelevant as a player, barely managing to qualify for Code S and when he did hardly ever doing anything in it.
Parting was a Top tier Protoss player from like 2011 all the way to when he left to the military. He actually won a WCS World Championship in 2012 which is a bigger title than anything Trap ever won.
That's why he's more remembered as a more iconic pro. The fact you have to go digging up Trap's proleague record which hardly anyone cares about for SC2 to try and make Trap's case isn't helping him.
Trap's success is very recent and it's consistent with the narrative that he's only been good when all of the other top tier Korean Protoss talent retired or left to the military. He might have some good career stats, but he has very little in terms of legacy and legacy is what you want to have to be on Mt. Rushmore. The other 3 Protoss on Wax's list have LOADS of legacy in SC2.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Easy to forget since Trap won exactly 1 MLG before 2020 and nothing else. Before 2020 he was totally irrelevant as a player, barely managing to qualify for Code S and when he did hardly ever doing anything in it.
Parting was a Top tier Protoss player from like 2011 all the way to when he left to the military. He actually won a WCS World Championship in 2012 which is a bigger title than anything Trap ever won.
That's why he's more remembered as a more iconic pro. The fact you have to go digging up Trap's proleague record which hardly anyone cares about for SC2 to try and make Trap's case isn't helping him.
Trap's success is very recent and it's consistent with the narrative that he's only been good when all of the other top tier Korean Protoss talent retired or left to the military. He might have some good career stats, but he has very little in terms of legacy and legacy is what you want to have to be on Mt. Rushmore. The other 3 Protoss on Wax's list have LOADS of legacy in SC2.
Are you okay? You said Stats in your original post and you were responding to a post about stats. No one mentioned Trap. Did you even read what you wrote?
Also you seem to forget that trap got second at the 2014 iem WC and was actually a better proleague player than parting as well.
I would recommend either seeing a doctor, reading your posts before posting or using liquipedia as a reference before posting.
T: TaeJa, Maru, INno, TY Z: Serral, Rogue, Life... hard to pick a 4th, but thinking Dark or Stephano P: Zest, Classic, Stats, Rain (honorable mention to MC for all the excitement he brought to WoL)
I've heard "mount Rushmore" debates in the prowrestling scene, and the question is often interpreted in terms of influence or how someone pushed the envelope in 1 particular way. It's not necessarily about who won the most titles or who drew the most money. (For example, here is how the undertaker answers the question )
Looking at it from that perspective, it's easier to understand someone putting Parting over a player like stats. Parting brought stylistic flair and personality to the game and pushed the envelope with micro.
Also, understanding the question that way makes an argument for early players like nestea, MVP, mkp, MMA, etc... because they had a huge effect and influence on the scene. Like how I said Terran micro has a definite "before 2016 byun and after 2016 byun."
Putting this out there so that it's understood that "mount Rushmore" doesn't have to be another GOAT debate.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Easy to forget since Trap won exactly 1 MLG before 2020 and nothing else. Before 2020 he was totally irrelevant as a player, barely managing to qualify for Code S and when he did hardly ever doing anything in it.
Parting was a Top tier Protoss player from like 2011 all the way to when he left to the military. He actually won a WCS World Championship in 2012 which is a bigger title than anything Trap ever won.
That's why he's more remembered as a more iconic pro. The fact you have to go digging up Trap's proleague record which hardly anyone cares about for SC2 to try and make Trap's case isn't helping him.
Trap's success is very recent and it's consistent with the narrative that he's only been good when all of the other top tier Korean Protoss talent retired or left to the military. He might have some good career stats, but he has very little in terms of legacy and legacy is what you want to have to be on Mt. Rushmore. The other 3 Protoss on Wax's list have LOADS of legacy in SC2.
Are you okay? You said Stats in your original post and you were responding to a post about stats. No one mentioned Trap. Did you even read what you wrote?
Also you seem to forget that trap got second at the 2014 iem WC and was actually a better proleague player than parting as well.
I would recommend either seeing a doctor, reading your posts before posting or using liquipedia as a reference before posting.
You know what, I got completely turned around on the argument here. I read Stats. wrote Stats and somehow got it in my head that you were arguing for Trap.
I don't know. Shouldn't post when tired I guess. Stats is a much better 4th place than Trap is on Mt. Rushmore for Protoss.
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Easy to forget since Trap won exactly 1 MLG before 2020 and nothing else. Before 2020 he was totally irrelevant as a player, barely managing to qualify for Code S and when he did hardly ever doing anything in it.
Parting was a Top tier Protoss player from like 2011 all the way to when he left to the military. He actually won a WCS World Championship in 2012 which is a bigger title than anything Trap ever won.
That's why he's more remembered as a more iconic pro. The fact you have to go digging up Trap's proleague record which hardly anyone cares about for SC2 to try and make Trap's case isn't helping him.
Trap's success is very recent and it's consistent with the narrative that he's only been good when all of the other top tier Korean Protoss talent retired or left to the military. He might have some good career stats, but he has very little in terms of legacy and legacy is what you want to have to be on Mt. Rushmore. The other 3 Protoss on Wax's list have LOADS of legacy in SC2.
Are you okay? You said Stats in your original post and you were responding to a post about stats. No one mentioned Trap. Did you even read what you wrote?
Also you seem to forget that trap got second at the 2014 iem WC and was actually a better proleague player than parting as well.
I would recommend either seeing a doctor, reading your posts before posting or using liquipedia as a reference before posting.
You know what, I got completely turned around on the argument here. I read Stats. wrote Stats and somehow got it in my head that you were arguing for Trap.
I don't know. Shouldn't post when tired I guess. Stats is a much better 4th place than Trap is on Mt. Rushmore for Protoss.
On January 06 2025 13:50 Waxangel wrote: Similar to all the GOAT debate threads, I'm mad that the SC2 fandom doesn't have sufficient respect for old school players
Terran: MVP, Polt, MMA, Taeja Protoss: MC, PartinG, Squirtle, NaNiwa Zerg: Fruitdealer, Nestea, LosirA (maybe this should be Leenock), Stephano
On January 04 2025 22:36 Waxangel wrote: Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
I'm hesitant to give that final spot on the Terran mountain to TY, but I'm struggling to decide who I'd want on there instead.
Otherwise I agree with this list.
EDIT: Put Parting as the 4th Protoss over Stats. He had a longer and more successful career. Was a much more popular player in his peak as well.
You do realize Stats both played longer and collected more accolades then parting, right? That's not opinion, it's fact
Easy to forget since Trap won exactly 1 MLG before 2020 and nothing else. Before 2020 he was totally irrelevant as a player, barely managing to qualify for Code S and when he did hardly ever doing anything in it.
Parting was a Top tier Protoss player from like 2011 all the way to when he left to the military. He actually won a WCS World Championship in 2012 which is a bigger title than anything Trap ever won.
That's why he's more remembered as a more iconic pro. The fact you have to go digging up Trap's proleague record which hardly anyone cares about for SC2 to try and make Trap's case isn't helping him.
Trap's success is very recent and it's consistent with the narrative that he's only been good when all of the other top tier Korean Protoss talent retired or left to the military. He might have some good career stats, but he has very little in terms of legacy and legacy is what you want to have to be on Mt. Rushmore. The other 3 Protoss on Wax's list have LOADS of legacy in SC2.
Are you okay? You said Stats in your original post and you were responding to a post about stats. No one mentioned Trap. Did you even read what you wrote?
Also you seem to forget that trap got second at the 2014 iem WC and was actually a better proleague player than parting as well.
I would recommend either seeing a doctor, reading your posts before posting or using liquipedia as a reference before posting.
Trap is as underrated as Parting is overrated as I often say
Parting is a huge fan favourite and for good reason and he had a great career don’t get me wrong but I don’t think his palmares really stacks up versus quite a few other Toss players
On January 06 2025 13:50 Waxangel wrote: Similar to all the GOAT debate threads, I'm mad that the SC2 fandom doesn't have sufficient respect for old school players
I'm of two minds on this.
Mind #1: I think it's very natural for Starcraft, being a video game, to not be viewed in the same way traditional sports are. With those, we tend to think "well, the players then probably weren't as good as the players were now, but that's very natural, people get bigger, faster stronger over time and we should respect the old-school guys." In a video game, that's a more subtle thing.
In reality, though, humans are REALLY good at optimizing games over time. Look at any speedrun, look at chess after computers came into it, look at Tetris. It was never realistic that players just figuring the game out were going to be playing the game anywhere close to optimally, even with an SC1 knowledge base to go on. The maps were way too small, the devs thought colossus ledge scaling was going to be a big deal, nobody knew how broken something like fungal could be, marine-splitting vs. banes had to be figured out, I could go on.
The old-school players definitely deserve a lot of credit for their skill relative to their peers while figuring out a brand-new game, making the innovations that players after them could build on and hone. There should definitely be a place for guys like MVP, NesTea, MC, et al in SC2 history.
Mind #2: With SC2 specifically, it's really hard to ignore the looming specter of Kespa and all the SC1 pros who didn't switch over. With few exceptions, the early days of SC2 really were mostly populated by guys who weren't able to make a comfortable living playing SC1. I wouldn't call SC2 a "minor league," but it was kind of like the ABA to SC1's NBA. You had a few guys like Dr. J and Rick Barry who were as good as any basketball player in the world in the ABA, and they were doing things like shooting 3-point shots before the NBA players were, but overall the skill level of the league was lower.
When the Kespa teams came over, they ran off 10 straight GSL code S wins, and with very few exceptions the SC2 guys couldn't keep up. There were a few guys, such as Flash, who couldn't translate their Brood War dominance into SC2 dominance, and guys like Maru who were every bit as good or better than the Kespa players at SC2 (and then joined a Kespa team himself), but it seems pretty fair to say that in the pre-Kespa days the majority of the best Starcraft players in the world weren't playing SC2.
To be clear, a lot of the best Starcraft players in the world are in SC1 now, and guys like Rain and Soulkey were GSL champs in SC2 before switching back over, but I feel like that's more about game preference than financial incentive, which is why the SC1 pros stayed in the first place and were eventually forced to switch over. (I did want to say that, but would appreciate if this tread didn't devolve into the current financial state of BW vs. SC2, there are other places for that.)
On January 06 2025 14:02 zelevin wrote: I've heard "mount Rushmore" debates in the prowrestling scene, and the question is often interpreted in terms of influence or how someone pushed the envelope in 1 particular way. It's not necessarily about who won the most titles or who drew the most money. (For example, here is how the undertaker answers the question https://youtu.be/7qmVuPqUI84 )
Looking at it from that perspective, it's easier to understand someone putting Parting over a player like stats. Parting brought stylistic flair and personality to the game and pushed the envelope with micro.
Also, understanding the question that way makes an argument for early players like nestea, MVP, mkp, MMA, etc... because they had a huge effect and influence on the scene. Like how I said Terran micro has a definite "before 2016 byun and after 2016 byun."
Putting this out there so that it's understood that "mount Rushmore" doesn't have to be another GOAT debate.
EPT
Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, TY
Serral, Rogue, Nestea, Dark
sOs, Zest, MC, proooobably Stats but this fourth slot is wide open
