EPTI also hope someone (perhaps die-hard fans) puts together a more extensive "highlight reel" collection for each of Maru/Serral/Rogue illustrating their most exciting games and remind everyone, including those in each other' camp, why they are most frequently in the GOAT conversation. I feel this will also bring a bit more calm to the topic so the audience better understands alternative theories about ranking that are different from their own. Obviously this collection above should already do that to a good extent.
Best Games of the GOAT Series - Page 2
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goldensail
132 Posts
I also hope someone (perhaps die-hard fans) puts together a more extensive "highlight reel" collection for each of Maru/Serral/Rogue illustrating their most exciting games and remind everyone, including those in each other' camp, why they are most frequently in the GOAT conversation. I feel this will also bring a bit more calm to the topic so the audience better understands alternative theories about ranking that are different from their own. Obviously this collection above should already do that to a good extent. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10322 Posts
On March 20 2024 02:41 Nasigil wrote: How to spot an insecure Maru fan: They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber. I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1835 Posts
On March 21 2024 17:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC. I don't understand why people think Serral not winning GSL has anything to do with his placement. It's the same thing as saying Serral can't be the GOAT because he didn't play in Proleague. Or that Mvp can't be fourth because he never played a WCS Global Finals. The idea is that you measure players (let's say Mvp) versus their contemporaries (MKP, NesTea, DRG, MC etc) to generate an idea of how strong they were relative to everyone else. This provides a great degree of clarity and context because you can say A) Mvp significantly outperformed the rest of the Korean Scene B) He did it over an X month/year period C) Can I then take that dominance and see if players in other eras performed suitably well against their peers? The reasoning is that StarCraft II has changed a hundred times and a million ways. If I tried to directly compare Mvp to INnoVation, it would be a mess. But if I compare Mvp's performances when he played and how they related to his peers I can do the same with INnoVation and create a reasonable comparison through that. There's a lot more things that create context and nuance which is why the rankings are so difficult, but I don't look at things as "you didn't win tournament A" or "you didn't play in tournament b" "you did play tournament C!" because everything is weighted by difficulty/prize money etc instead of just slapping a name onto something and saying you have to win Code S and a WC and be good in proleague and you have to have won a 2010 open season. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15913 Posts
On March 21 2024 18:08 Mizenhauer wrote: I don't understand why people think Serral not winning GSL has anything to do with his placement. It's the same thing as saying Serral can't be the GOAT because he didn't play in Proleague. Or that Mvp can't be fourth because he never played a WCS Global Finals. The idea is that you measure players (let's say Mvp) versus their contemporaries (MKP, NesTea, DRG, MC etc) to generate an idea of how strong they were relative to everyone else. This provides a great degree of clarity and context because you can say A) Mvp significantly outperformed the rest of the Korean Scene B) He did it over an X month/year period C) Can I then take that dominance and see if players in other eras performed suitably well against their peers? The reasoning is that StarCraft II has changed a hundred times and a million ways. If I tried to directly compare Mvp to INnoVation, it would be a mess. But if I compare Mvp's performances when he played and how they related to his peers I can do the same with INnoVation and create a reasonable comparison through that. There's a lot more things that create context and nuance which is why the rankings are so difficult, but I don't look at things as "you didn't win tournament A" or "you didn't play in tournament b" "you did play tournament C!" because everything is weighted by difficulty/prize money etc instead of just slapping a name onto something and saying you have to win Code S and a WC and be good in proleague and you have to have won a 2010 open season. Because they didn't read any of the articles | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1835 Posts
On March 21 2024 18:24 Charoisaur wrote: Because they didn't read any of the articles I'm gonna get carpal tunnel for nothing  | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 21 2024 17:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC. Nah, I read the Miz's articles and he never mentioned "no Code S" as an argument against Serral. He was just saying Maru has stayed on top of competition for much longer, even if he admits Serral's has been more successful since 2018, he still thinks Maru has an overall more better career. But they are very close and probably one more WC tier win for Serral could tip the scale for him. That's a reasonable take and I can respect that even if I don't agree fully. I am just waiting on his explanation why Dark's almost equally impressive career longevity doesn't earn him at least a top 10 spot. Dude has been consistently top 3 Zerg since 2015 and achieved more than a quite a few players on this list. The things that annoys me to no end is how some Maru fans didn't read article and just come here to echo "see, Serral can't be GOAT because he hasn't won GSL Code S yet", which is missing the entire point. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1835 Posts
On March 22 2024 00:29 Nasigil wrote: Nah, I read the Miz's articles and he never mentioned "no Code S" as an argument against Serral. He was just saying Maru has stayed on top of competition for much longer, even if he admits Serral's has been more successful since 2018, he still thinks Maru has an overall more better career. But they are very close and probably one more WC tier win for Serral could tip the scale for him. That's a reasonable take and I can respect that even if I don't agree fully. I am just waiting on his explanation why Dark's almost equally impressive career longevity doesn't earn him at least a top 10 spot. Dude has been consistently top 3 Zerg since 2015 and achieved more than a quite a few players on this list. The things that annoys me to no end is how some Maru fans didn't read article and just come here to echo "see, Serral can't be GOAT because he hasn't won GSL Code S yet", which is missing the entire point. I'm working on a 3k ish word piece covering a lot of stuff that either was omitted from the series or needs to be cleared up. I'm sure you can understand, however, given that I wrote a preview that came out yesterday and Wax edited said preview while also writing the ESL Cup recap that we're a bit busy. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 22 2024 00:59 Mizenhauer wrote: I'm working on a 3k ish word piece covering a lot of stuff that either was omitted from the series or needs to be cleared up. I'm sure you can understand, however, given that I wrote a preview that came out yesterday and Wax edited said preview while also writing the ESL Cup recap that we're a bit busy. Take your time, I am happy to wait. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10322 Posts
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