With the help of Elentos (of Best Games fame) I ranked all 34 games featured in the GOAT series and placed them into this comprehensive list. Hopefully, this will be helpful for those who want to go back and watch the games without having to sort through all 10 articles.
On March 19 2024 09:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Awesome thanks for doing this!
(Also, is #1 = highest ranking?)
These can't be in any particular order.
Putting anything from 2019, but especially a ZvZ, ahead of any of the other years would be criminal.
There's no balance issue within a mirror matchup. Z being overpowered in 2019 has nothing to do with the fact that this particular game between Serral and soO is one of the greatest ZvZ games of all time.
On March 19 2024 09:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Awesome thanks for doing this!
(Also, is #1 = highest ranking?)
These can't be in any particular order.
Putting anything from 2019, but especially a ZvZ, ahead of any of the other years would be criminal.
Whoa really? It's such a good game though, one of my favorite. You could really feel soO turning the series around.
On the opposite, simply looking at the Rogue-Trap thumbnail makes me tired and grumpy, basically Starcraft terrorism. Everything in between is good to different degree,
On March 19 2024 09:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Awesome thanks for doing this!
(Also, is #1 = highest ranking?)
These can't be in any particular order.
Putting anything from 2019, but especially a ZvZ, ahead of any of the other years would be criminal.
A) it's one of the best ZvZs of all time.
B) it has enormous historical influence. soO probably doesn't win that event if he loses that game and he/the fans are deprived of one of the most wholesome and cathartic moments in StarCraft history.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
Rogue is back next week? Hell yeah!!! I doubt it but what if he comes back to SC2... he's rich enough, so if he just enjoys the game and wants to play for fun, he could!!
On March 19 2024 09:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Awesome thanks for doing this!
(Also, is #1 = highest ranking?)
These can't be in any particular order.
Putting anything from 2019, but especially a ZvZ, ahead of any of the other years would be criminal.
A) it's one of the best ZvZs of all time.
B) it has enormous historical influence. soO probably doesn't win that event if he loses that game and he/the fans are deprived of one of the most wholesome and cathartic moments in StarCraft history.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
Also, I would assert that ZvZ was maybe the best matchup during that era. Even though I hated watching ZvP and we were plagued with ZvZs, almost every ZvZ series was amazing because of how many top zerg players we had at that moment.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
Thanks for telling me how I would have done things.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
Hey now, INnoVation is an even bigger choker at these events!
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
Hey now, INnoVation is an even bigger choker at these events!
Innovation underperforms in such tournaments yes but I wouldn't call him choking, at least much less so compared to Maru who is the true choke artist
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
Your take is equally bad. Imagine a world with nuance...
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
Your take is equally bad. Imagine a world with nuance...
Well, I didn't say GSL doesn't mean anything. All I was saying is World Championship worth more than regular weekenders. I hope that's more nuanced than the guy I replied to.
I also hope someone (perhaps die-hard fans) puts together a more extensive "highlight reel" collection for each of Maru/Serral/Rogue illustrating their most exciting games and remind everyone, including those in each other' camp, why they are most frequently in the GOAT conversation. I feel this will also bring a bit more calm to the topic so the audience better understands alternative theories about ranking that are different from their own. Obviously this collection above should already do that to a good extent.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
I don't understand why people think Serral not winning GSL has anything to do with his placement. It's the same thing as saying Serral can't be the GOAT because he didn't play in Proleague. Or that Mvp can't be fourth because he never played a WCS Global Finals. The idea is that you measure players (let's say Mvp) versus their contemporaries (MKP, NesTea, DRG, MC etc) to generate an idea of how strong they were relative to everyone else. This provides a great degree of clarity and context because you can say A) Mvp significantly outperformed the rest of the Korean Scene B) He did it over an X month/year period C) Can I then take that dominance and see if players in other eras performed suitably well against their peers?
The reasoning is that StarCraft II has changed a hundred times and a million ways. If I tried to directly compare Mvp to INnoVation, it would be a mess. But if I compare Mvp's performances when he played and how they related to his peers I can do the same with INnoVation and create a reasonable comparison through that.
There's a lot more things that create context and nuance which is why the rankings are so difficult, but I don't look at things as "you didn't win tournament A" or "you didn't play in tournament b" "you did play tournament C!" because everything is weighted by difficulty/prize money etc instead of just slapping a name onto something and saying you have to win Code S and a WC and be good in proleague and you have to have won a 2010 open season.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
I don't understand why people think Serral not winning GSL has anything to do with his placement. It's the same thing as saying Serral can't be the GOAT because he didn't play in Proleague. Or that Mvp can't be fourth because he never played a WCS Global Finals. The idea is that you measure players (let's say Mvp) versus their contemporaries (MKP, NesTea, DRG, MC etc) to generate an idea of how strong they were relative to everyone else. This provides a great degree of clarity and context because you can say A) Mvp significantly outperformed the rest of the Korean Scene B) He did it over an X month/year period C) Can I then take that dominance and see if players in other eras performed suitably well against their peers?
The reasoning is that StarCraft II has changed a hundred times and a million ways. If I tried to directly compare Mvp to INnoVation, it would be a mess. But if I compare Mvp's performances when he played and how they related to his peers I can do the same with INnoVation and create a reasonable comparison through that.
There's a lot more things that create context and nuance which is why the rankings are so difficult, but I don't look at things as "you didn't win tournament A" or "you didn't play in tournament b" "you did play tournament C!" because everything is weighted by difficulty/prize money etc instead of just slapping a name onto something and saying you have to win Code S and a WC and be good in proleague and you have to have won a 2010 open season.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
I don't understand why people think Serral not winning GSL has anything to do with his placement. It's the same thing as saying Serral can't be the GOAT because he didn't play in Proleague. Or that Mvp can't be fourth because he never played a WCS Global Finals. The idea is that you measure players (let's say Mvp) versus their contemporaries (MKP, NesTea, DRG, MC etc) to generate an idea of how strong they were relative to everyone else. This provides a great degree of clarity and context because you can say A) Mvp significantly outperformed the rest of the Korean Scene B) He did it over an X month/year period C) Can I then take that dominance and see if players in other eras performed suitably well against their peers?
The reasoning is that StarCraft II has changed a hundred times and a million ways. If I tried to directly compare Mvp to INnoVation, it would be a mess. But if I compare Mvp's performances when he played and how they related to his peers I can do the same with INnoVation and create a reasonable comparison through that.
There's a lot more things that create context and nuance which is why the rankings are so difficult, but I don't look at things as "you didn't win tournament A" or "you didn't play in tournament b" "you did play tournament C!" because everything is weighted by difficulty/prize money etc instead of just slapping a name onto something and saying you have to win Code S and a WC and be good in proleague and you have to have won a 2010 open season.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
Nah, I read the Miz's articles and he never mentioned "no Code S" as an argument against Serral. He was just saying Maru has stayed on top of competition for much longer, even if he admits Serral's has been more successful since 2018, he still thinks Maru has an overall more better career. But they are very close and probably one more WC tier win for Serral could tip the scale for him.
That's a reasonable take and I can respect that even if I don't agree fully. I am just waiting on his explanation why Dark's almost equally impressive career longevity doesn't earn him at least a top 10 spot. Dude has been consistently top 3 Zerg since 2015 and achieved more than a quite a few players on this list.
The things that annoys me to no end is how some Maru fans didn't read article and just come here to echo "see, Serral can't be GOAT because he hasn't won GSL Code S yet", which is missing the entire point.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
Nah, I read the Miz's articles and he never mentioned "no Code S" as an argument against Serral. He was just saying Maru has stayed on top of competition for much longer, even if he admits Serral's has been more successful since 2018, he still thinks Maru has an overall more better career. But they are very close and probably one more WC tier win for Serral could tip the scale for him.
That's a reasonable take and I can respect that even if I don't agree fully. I am just waiting on his explanation why Dark's almost equally impressive career longevity doesn't earn him at least a top 10 spot. Dude has been consistently top 3 Zerg since 2015 and achieved more than a quite a few players on this list.
The things that annoys me to no end is how some Maru fans didn't read article and just come here to echo "see, Serral can't be GOAT because he hasn't won GSL Code S yet", which is missing the entire point.
I'm working on a 3k ish word piece covering a lot of stuff that either was omitted from the series or needs to be cleared up. I'm sure you can understand, however, given that I wrote a preview that came out yesterday and Wax edited said preview while also writing the ESL Cup recap that we're a bit busy.
C) if serral wins that match, he probably goes on the beat Stats in the finals and I probably rank him first as he has another wc title on his resume.
There is no way you were short with just 1 weekender title to finally tilt the scales towards Serral. There will still be 0 in the GSL graph. Agree with all other 3 points though, tremendous game.
How to spot an insecure Maru fan:
They will try to trivialize the literal world championship tournaments, which have the highest prize pool and best players competing in, by just describing them as "weekenders", because Maru chokes in such tournaments more than any other player at his caliber.
I'm pretty sure flyingdrone was trying to say that Miz would still find a way to argue that Maru is #1 just because Serral has 0 Code S. Not that flyingdrone actually thinks Maru should be #1 even if Serral got a 4th WC.
Nah, I read the Miz's articles and he never mentioned "no Code S" as an argument against Serral. He was just saying Maru has stayed on top of competition for much longer, even if he admits Serral's has been more successful since 2018, he still thinks Maru has an overall more better career. But they are very close and probably one more WC tier win for Serral could tip the scale for him.
That's a reasonable take and I can respect that even if I don't agree fully. I am just waiting on his explanation why Dark's almost equally impressive career longevity doesn't earn him at least a top 10 spot. Dude has been consistently top 3 Zerg since 2015 and achieved more than a quite a few players on this list.
The things that annoys me to no end is how some Maru fans didn't read article and just come here to echo "see, Serral can't be GOAT because he hasn't won GSL Code S yet", which is missing the entire point.
I'm working on a 3k ish word piece covering a lot of stuff that either was omitted from the series or needs to be cleared up. I'm sure you can understand, however, given that I wrote a preview that came out yesterday and Wax edited said preview while also writing the ESL Cup recap that we're a bit busy.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with flyingdrone or that Miz said Serral isn't #1 because of no Code S, or that Miz wouldn't give Serral #1 if he won a 4th GSL. Just I think people interpreted his comment an entirely wrong way and wanted to correct that haha. It read like sarcasm to me.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Screenshot_20240319_084216_C.jpg)
