EPTThanks.
<November>Discussion Topic: The Terran Ghost - Page 5
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote: Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please. Yes, the current ghost would be a hard counter to zealots, more or less. And being a hard counter to small air, casters, and basic ground troops seems wrong in a design way. Popping ghosts in and out of dropships would devastate a lot of Protoss units. The only thing left are stalkers and immortals. So this turns the first half of a game into all goons, get ready to lose most of your observers and no other options till Colossus, carriers, mothership? Way too limiting. Hell, if Blizzard was serious about these stats, they might as well give ghosts cloak detection. | ||
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Oceanic
United States122 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
So many people have posted that they think the ghost is magically going to be imbalanced because it can do these things? You have to look at where the ghost comes into play in the game flow + where blizzard will be putting cloak/emp/drop pod upgrades, because as long as EMP/CLOAK are higher up on the tech tree, then ghosts will not be imbalanced whatsoever even with all of these potential abilities. and then, after all of that consideration, then it'll come down to mechanics and unit control: will a player be able to perfectly execute ghost usage like they're boxer? I doubt it... And don't forget what a couple other people said: stop comparing an SC2 ghost balance-wise with SC1 units. A lot of the comparisons and theorycrafting probably won't even apply o_o | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On November 08 2007 10:57 teamsolid wrote: To put this into perspective: 2 vult shots kills a zergling 2 vult shots kills a marine/probe/drone 8 vult shots kills a zealot Vults have faster attack and move speed than ghosts (but less range). Vults cost 75 min/0 gas (expendable), while ghost costs 100 min/100 gas (costly). Mines also are pretty good all around against a whole bunch of other ground units. + Show Spoiler + As for firing on static D, Siege tanks and Thors would be a far greater threat than a ghost (aside from nuking). Snipe does seem a bit overpowered currently though, but I guess it'll depend on exactly how long the cooldown for the attack is and the damage can always be toned down if necessary. * Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost? So far, I like the concept of the ghost. Balance can be tweaked later. * Will the new Ghost change your strategy? Yes, I might actually make use of them now, even when my name is not Boxer. * How would you utilize the Ghost? Too early to tell. Release Zerg race first then we can talk. Ghosts attacks nearly 50% faster than vultures and can attack air, come again please. http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml On November 09 2007 03:24 avilo wrote: I like how no one in this thread is taking into account the position of cloak, EMP, and drop pod upgrades on the tech tree, and their energy costs combined with the ghosts fragile-ness. The abilities are fine, the combat stats are not however on a unit with any useful abilities whatsoever and now the ghost is stacked with useful abilities its both a useful caster and a strong combat unit for the cost of just the combat unit. And i dont say that they need a huge nerf, if they nerf atleast one of their stats down to Blizzcon levels they would be fine enough to not be able to tell if they are overpowered or not without playing. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Tiptup
United States133 Posts
On November 09 2007 06:58 BluzMan wrote: I dislike how Blizzard makes a spec-op themed unit a jack of all trades must-have-in-any-matchup unit. That could make sense or infantry or tanks, but not for ghosts. Yeah, Ghosts should be special units that are powerful in certain situations, expensive, but rather redundant if you build too many. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
MnM Add Tank Add Science Vessle This is basically the formula, and it's a shame, because Blizzard has 2 other well designed models to look at which would improve this greatly, for example: Zerg lair tech, you choose muta or lurker (though lately at higher levels, it's only been muta into lurker exclusively) Protoss, Robo Bay or Citadel. This method of branching off varies the strategies and skills players need to develop. With a Ghost that can not only be used to damage biological tergets, but imobalize mechanical ones, there create the risk of over reliance on a certain tech direction in almost any matchup. Terran will probably end up being forced to choose the ghost to be able to compete with their opponents at all. So, my first proposition is for Blizzard to analyze the tech tree and see if they want the Ghost to be a branch in it, or to be a stepping stone for the Terrans next tech decision. My second argument is against the current implementation of the drop pod, it seems as if late game, their will undermine positional play that is essential in competitive Starcraft. Since there seems to be a willingness to make nukes and drop pods more viable, you need to somehow make balances for it, In many late game situations it seems that the ghost will be able to perform the function of a dropship without any of the risk inherent in it form the original (scourge/AA) thus undermining the opposition in having to gain aerial supremacy. The two obvious solutions would be to either make it ridiculously expensive (thus underused) or have the ghost become very vulnerable if they attempt to cast this. I think you can find a better solution however, so I'll leave it for now. In the end I think you are taking the idea of Terran harassment a bit far, you still need to Terran ball to be the primary method with which they do damage, and if you want to harass there has to be more risk involved. I think it's been partially corrected by converting the Cobras attack into non-splash because of the inherent imbalance against supply lines without detection (ie. a fresh expansion). So, I haven't exactly done it in format, but I hope I've said something worth listening to in the end, and that you think about how the Ghost can affect Terran play from now on. | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
I guess it'd actually make Nukes quite useful in TvP though - Cloak, aim nuke, scan & have a few spare ghosts shoot any observers trying to get close, emp nexus before hit, watch fireworks  .Anyway, I'd expect them to either change the observer's size class to medium, or alternatively tone down the lurdiculous range of the Ghost when eventually mucking around with the unit balance, because unless Toss suddenly gained some new form of mobile detection, I'm having trouble seeing just how they're supposed to cope with them - I mean, how many other units are there in the game that are an extremely hard counter against the very unit that's supposed to counter them? | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
On November 10 2007 11:21 Muey wrote: I think a good solution to that would be to ensure that their damage type does not get a bonus vs psi shields.What I'm wondering how exactly Toss are supposed to deal with them assuming, Observers will still be classed as small units - They'd two-shoot observers without snipe, and thier shooting range is equal to that of the sight range of the observer(unupgraded) - In practive this would mean that you'd have essentially no realistically effective way to keep your observers alive in a PvT engagement if the terran exhibits some basic micro. I guess it'd actually make Nukes quite useful in TvP though - Cloak, aim nuke, scan & have a few spare ghosts shoot any observers trying to get close, emp nexus before hit, watch fireworks .Anyway, I'd expect them to either change the observer's size class to medium, or alternatively tone down the lurdiculous range of the Ghost when eventually mucking around with the unit balance, because unless Toss suddenly gained some new form of mobile detection, I'm having trouble seeing just how they're supposed to cope with them - I mean, how many other units are there in the game that are an extremely hard counter against the very unit that's supposed to counter them? | ||
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Muey
Finland149 Posts
On November 10 2007 14:52 Zanno wrote: I think a good solution to that would be to ensure that their damage type does not get a bonus vs psi shields. I was actually thinking that first, but then came to the conclusion that it defeats pretty much their entire purpose of being effective against small (and biological) units, at least as far as Protoss are concerned. I mean, you could 3-shoot the the HP of the Zealot with shields down, but that doesn't do you much good if you'd need 12 shots just to get to that point since your gun acts like a damned pea-shooter as long as the shields stay up. | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
On November 11 2007 09:39 Muey wrote: I was actually thinking that first, but then came to the conclusion that it defeats pretty much their entire purpose of being effective against small (and biological) units, at least as far as Protoss are concerned. I mean, you could 3-shoot the the HP of the Zealot with shields down, but that doesn't do you much good if you'd need 12 shots just to get to that point since your gun acts like a damned pea-shooter as long as the shields stay up. Thats what EMP is for! Anyways I'd rather see the ghost as a support role or as the terran dark templar (as many have mentioned), rather than an anti-small unit (we already have lots of those ~.~) | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On November 09 2007 03:24 avilo wrote: I like how no one in this thread is taking into account the position of cloak, EMP, and drop pod upgrades on the tech tree, and their energy costs combined with the ghosts fragile-ness. So many people have posted that they think the ghost is magically going to be imbalanced because it can do these things? You have to look at where the ghost comes into play in the game flow + where blizzard will be putting cloak/emp/drop pod upgrades, because as long as EMP/CLOAK are higher up on the tech tree, then ghosts will not be imbalanced whatsoever even with all of these potential abilities. and then, after all of that consideration, then it'll come down to mechanics and unit control: will a player be able to perfectly execute ghost usage like they're boxer? I doubt it... And don't forget what a couple other people said: stop comparing an SC2 ghost balance-wise with SC1 units. A lot of the comparisons and theorycrafting probably won't even apply o_o Except the nuke... Which has got to be early because it is so outrageously fun to do. | ||
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