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http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general-eu&t=197&p=1&#post197
November Discussion Topic: The Multi-Purpose Terran Ghost
Of all the original StarCraft units brought back to StarCraft II, the Terran Ghost has undergone some of the most changes. The Terran Ghost wields new abilities such as Snipe and the upgradable EMP burst and cloak ability. Furthermore, the Ghost is also able to call down Drop Pods in addition to their classic Nuclear Launch ability. In addition, the Terran Ghost can be built early game, in a Barracks with a tech lab and a Shadow Ops as a prerequisite building, making it a Tier 1.5 unit.
These changes have brought about much innovation to the gameplay for StarCraft II and we encourage the community to add their feedback to these changes!
Here are the Ghosts stats in the current build of StarCraft II:
Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked
If you have a StarCraft II fan site and would like to participate, please email me at Xordiah@blizzard.com.
Battle.net Questions for Fans:
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
* Additional Feedback you would like to give
Each StarCraft II fansite will be featuring different types of questions, so be sure to also visit those sites. All of this feedback will be compiled and sent to the development and community team.
Please structure feedback as follows:
-----
<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>
<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>
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We are looking forward to some great discussions about the new Terran Ghost unit!
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Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked
Rofl, 10 range, 35 damage vs small!!
Wee, 1 shot zerglings at tank range! 1 shot muta for 25 energy! If you have many you should even be able to counter heavy zerg units since snipe is so cheap and still deals 50 damage! Not to mention that they counter all toss as support with Emp, they counter all casters with emp, they counter Dt's and HT's easily with snipe.
I think they went a bit overboard here...
Now you wont do a mnm, you will do a gnm, with some rine support.
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I think at 100/100 they're a bit too expensive to turn into a one stop counter for EVERYTHING, but they pretty much eat small units for breakfast. 35 bonus seems a little excessive to me, but then again it's only vs small (if mutas are still small, then the ghost will pretty much be the bane of a zerg user's existence.
Also, I want lockdown back 
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gnm sounds fun! But where will the terrans get all those ghosts from? Other infantry troops are convicts and criminals, but ghosts are a kind of elite troop, so it won't be easy to get them by the dozen.
100 min and 100 gas doesn't make them much cheaper than a tank, and they probably still have a long cooldown. So there is still hope for balance.
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Do they still fire like 1 shot every two months? What's normal attack speed?
I think it's a fine unit and will probably become a huge staple terran unit in the sequel.
Just depends what light armor is. I hope this +X to armor type doesn't go crazy.
I don't wanna learn 5 pages of unit specific stats to play the game... not at this time.
... Like can ghosts rape Hydras now?
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The way I understand it, the +35 only applies to small targets, so a hydra would be excluded, meaning the Ghost does 5 damage (slowly) to a hydra. Taking Snipe into account, Ghosts could still do a great job of fighitng Hydras (2 ghosts using snipe takes one down), but not like M&M
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But the ghost is cloaked, got near the same damage and same attackspeed as DT, can shoot air and got 10! range. Towers got 7 range...
Sure if they had these stats and 7 range as before it could be fine but 10 range is extreme. Imagine a bunker creep with ghosts, tanks and some turrets, nothing can get close. Ghosts also now are extremely hard counters against observers since they shoot almost as far as the observer sees and they deal 35 dmg vs it.
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Their damage and abilities are rather overpowered IMO, but they're pretty fragile right?
With proper micro they'll own
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100 HP in't very fragile.
I would like it better if they had super damage and sweet abilities but low HP, making them an asset to protect and use carefuly rather than a power unit to just throw into your army.
I think Blizz might be stuck on whether they want to make the Ghost a combat unit with support or a support unit with combat, he's kinda stuck in the middle.
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yay ghosts and medics vs z for the win if optical flare still exists 
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I hope optical flare is gone.
Single most useless ability in the game
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Sweden33719 Posts
Please quote the first post from the battle.net forums on here, makes for a better opening post.
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Does anyone else find it slightly weird that Ghosts have 100 hp?
I mean, sure they might by super-soldiers, but c'mon, have 2.5X HP compared to the steroid-charged marines seems crazy.
Also, this would mean Ghosts would have greater or equal HP compared to any biological Protoss unit. O_O
(Although this is all out the window if Blizzard decides to rescale the HP values of units, in which case why the hell are they just giving us the stats of a single unit without any context?)
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
At first glance they seem pretty in line with High Templars. Pretty much the same cost (I bet they'll require 2 food as well but it's noted nowhere) and a pretty good utility-factor.
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This has to be a joke. Mass ghosts will be unbeatable.
Plus, what's up with the new damage system? The damage system in StarCraft was simple while adding depth into the game. Are we really going to have to learn the damage differences for every individual unit now?
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I don't think the new damage system is bad at all, if anything it's superior, adds for more flexibility so balance changes will be much easier. Learning all the stuff won't be too complex anyways, we've figured out the broodwar damage system without much problems.
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so ghosts pretty much 2hit kill marines and workers now? And what about say if its attacking a probe? Would it deal 35 damage to shield and then 35 damage to the probe itself or just 5 damage to shield then 35 to the probe? What about in regard to shield on other protoss units?
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Them being fragile is kind of offset by cloak
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Smartcasting snipe on templars makes me cry inside. ;_;
Also, 100hp? That seems a bit excessive for a unit with all those strengths really.
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you could counter nearly any current zerg unit (bw) with these new ghosts alone
although they're quite expensive
select 1 (30 ghosts)
s (snipe) click
s click
s click
s click
s click
s click
..
zerg army dead
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On November 07 2007 08:58 Konni wrote:
you could counter nearly any current zerg unit (bw) with these new ghosts alone
although they're quite expensive
select 1 (30 ghosts)
s (snipe) click
s click
s click
s click
s click
s click
..
zerg army dead
2 Ultralisks OR 4 Lurker.
Anyways, this seems like a good move for the incorporation of ghosts into the army. They will obviously be very gas heavy, and it seems like you will have to find a balance between tanks and ghosts. Personally I wonder just how long the snipe time is, seeing as that will be a major part of the new ghost's role in the Terran army. Spells like emp and snipe with a huge small unit damage bonus is going to make them a staple unit like the tank.
Another thing you guys should take into account is the build time. Ghosts obviously aren't going to be popping out as fast as medics so you're going to have to free up some barracks and tech labs to build them, balancing them greatly. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a similar build time to the original ghosts because of their new and now obviously superior role in the Terran army.
In Conclusion, New ghosts = Walking Science Vessel.
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It sounds very cool, with possibility of being imbalanced. Nevertheless I do think that improving the viability of ghosts is necessary.
The other questions are impossible to know without trying out the game and testing them against game context, relative cost efficiency and tech timings. Only noobs are going to have "strategies" at this point in time, and they are those who will whine the most when their ideas come crashing down at release time.
Edit: In the current BW paradigm, a 100/100 unit which can be built the same time as goons, with strong default capabilities vs basic units and numerous spell capabilities seems severely imbalanced. BW casters have always had negligible combat ability and are very fragile, and I would like it to remain that way. I would NOT like to see an army of 20 ghosts walking around. I feel it would be good if they are like templar in the current Protoss arsenal, w/ 4-6 in a 2-3 control group army. With their default combat capabilities and cloak, that seems like way too much power that is easy to control. At least the vessel right now is fragile, has no attack, and is very mechanically demanding.
Edit 2: I forgot to mention it also has gigantic range. 10 is more than the current range of a reaver, and only slightly less than a tank. Even 5 damage at these ranges is quite an addition to your army.
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United States20661 Posts
I do think the normal attack is too strong as it is. Snipe is enough for straight damage - 25 energy is fairly cheap to do essentially what irradiate could, at a faster rate.
Come to think of it, snipe is much stronger than irradiate - as it is, defilers, templar, etc will all fall before they're able to be used.
100 hp is also too much - 45 hp ghosts were sensible. They don't have to be strong combat units - and Terran was always low hp high damage anyways.
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On November 07 2007 06:45 Klockan3 wrote:
But the ghost is cloaked, got near the same damage and same attackspeed as DT, can shoot air and got 10! range. Towers got 7 range...
Sure if they had these stats and 7 range as before it could be fine but 10 range is extreme. Imagine a bunker creep with ghosts, tanks and some turrets, nothing can get close. Ghosts also now are extremely hard counters against observers since they shoot almost as far as the observer sees and they deal 35 dmg vs it.
Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
Ghost is cloaked
- It's upgradeable, you don't know how late in the tech tree cloak will become available. DT's have it without upgrades and it's on permanently.
Near the same damage as DTs?
- Yeah, only against Light Armored units. If we are correct in interpreting Light Armor as SC1's small units then this really isn't a problem. They aren't any more dangerous to your mineral line than Vults are in SC1 and the only light armored units that would now really fear ghosts are DT's and HT's. Terran infantry is still at least 2 shots to kill. They do a whopping 5 damage to everything else. 5 is hardly the DT's 40 damage to everything.
Range 10
- Again, at a whopping 5 damage a shot they aren't exactly threatening your sunk line anytime soon. Or any other static defenses for that matter.
Hard counter to observers
- Since when have Obs been hard to kill if you detected them before? If they retain their 60 hp from SC1, it still takes 2 shots to kill an ob.
@Jyvblamo: How do Ghosts have more hp than any biological unit? Are you not taking into account shields? Counting shields, the only P unit the Ghost has more hp than is the HT.
@XCetron: I doubt their bonus damage is applied twice. It's probably 5+30=35 damage done total to a probe and then it would be taken care of in the same way SC1 handled shields. The probe would be left with 5 hp and it's shields would start regening. So still 2 shot kills on probes, like Vults did.
I agree that the ghost now has ALOT of abilities but it's hardly a "mass this and win" button. The only thing that really scares me in terms of balance is if the Muta still counts as a small unit (light armored) then Snipe is a 1 shot kill. Perhaps in the absence of Irradiate Terrans will require a hard counter to Mutas but Ghosts having this ability at tier 1.5 might be too much of a counter. The HP does seem high as well.
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@_@
These new Ghosts make me cry inside
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LOL NOOOOOOOOO MAKE THE SCII THEORYTCRAFT GO AWAY.
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25 energy seems pretty cheap at the moment. Something closer to 50 might seem reasonable, but then again, its 100 gas for a 1.5 tier infantry unit. But at 100 hp, at least its a little more durable.
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how long is the cast time for snipe?
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100 HP kind of wrecks the previously established theme for the unit. The abilities seem overpowered presented all together, but as said, might be much later in the tech tree. It seems logical that the Ghost will start with cloak already researched and then the subsequent abilities being researchable upgrades farther up in tech.
The attempt to make it a more mainstream unit is interesting direction though.
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On November 07 2007 08:58 Konni wrote:
you could counter nearly any current zerg unit (bw) with these new ghosts alone
although they're quite expensive
select 1 (30 ghosts)
s (snipe) click
s click
s click
s click
s click
s click
..
zerg army dead
Hey, get with the new game. There is a autocast.
Observer is screwed, most likely its light armor.
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I think the new ghost currently is pretty good, although the damage might be a bit high, we don't know anything about how it plays, but I would say the hp is a bit too high. I mean, a tank can't one shot it anymore. It should remain at the low 45 hp because of cloak. And if the range is kept at 10, then there should be no reason for a ghost to get shot at, so 45 hp sounds good to me. But a range of 10 is a bit much, considering that the yamato gun had about 10 range too, and a tower only has 7 range. So maybe lower the large range a bit, and possibly lower the damage bonuses a bit for snipe, and I think it would be better balanced. Note that this is assumption is based on my current knowledge of SCII, and it probably not going to be accurate once more information is released. And I think that the new ghost would definitely change my use of it. I would probably build a few to snipe down spellcasters and such, although I may not use EMP very much due to the 100 energy cost, and the ghost requiring energy for snipe as well as cloak.
And to AlabasterFilth, how will sensor towers be able to deny expos? They are revealed to all players, and can probably be destroyed very easily if not defended properly. And that would mean defending all expos against attacks, which would be very costly, and if you were to do that you might as well expand into every expansion area.
As for ghosts winning the game, have you ever considered that you can't just walk your ghosts into their base, and chances are that they will have detection by mid game? And by the time you get cloak they will definitely have detection? It's like saying that with the protoss able to warp DT's into a player's base via phase prism they instantly win no matter what. Heck, the protoss players could just drop DT's, then proceed to warp in stalkers or something like that. Double instant victory! not.
And drop pods will not be able to deny expos very well. If you get one probe shot down as it's trying to expand, chances are that you would send an escort the next time. 6 zealots can kill 6 marines easily. And if multiple ghosts were to drop a drop pod over my worker, I would probably bring stalkers or DT's to escort my worker.
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On November 07 2007 14:51 TheShizno wrote:
As for ghosts winning the game, have you ever considered that you can't just walk your ghosts into their base, and chances are that they will have detection by mid game? And by the time you get cloak they will definitely have detection? It's like saying that with the protoss able to warp DT's into a player's base via phase prism they instantly win no matter what. Heck, the protoss players could just drop DT's, then proceed to warp in stalkers or something like that. Double instant victory! not.
The difference though is that the ghost got the second longest range in the game while the DT is melee, and id bet on that they get atleast 3 dmg per up so they 2 shot workers with 2 ups wich would make them extremely dangerous to mineral lines.
And if they preserved the old cooldowns this new ghost would beat a zealot even if the zealot started next to it and it didnt use snipe, with snipe it can ~beat 2 zealots starting next to it or easily beat 2 zealots coming from range. They would totally make zealots and templars useless for the toss player wich isn't fine.
So, even if this ghost had no other abilities than snipe it would still be built for its insane range and damage vs small units. Then you realise that its a normal combat units with nuke, imagine if marines could nuke in sc1 and nukes were built from the engineering bay and the rine were cloaked while nuking, and then realise that this unit got emp so you can emp a nexus and nuke it with the same unit.
But anyway, i think that Blizzard intentionally overbuffed it to see what effects it got and to ignite some discussion wich were clearly absent in the earlier topics. I mean, they had this blizzcon ghost, and then just buffed it with 100% more damage, 50% more health, 50% more range and added emp to their ability pool, thats a bit drastic usually for Blizzard.
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Yes, the SC2 ghost even before this change was probably a bit lackluster, however it still were an improvement over the old ghost.
The thing now is that they put way way to much on the same unit without increasing its cost at all. I dont say that its zomg imba, but that it counters to much to be an asset to the game now and instead would destroy other typical parts of sc gameplay.
Edit: Read that and i dont think that he meant that we should buff the ghost to have tank range, 1 shot workers and high enough health to be considered a combat unit at the same time as not only keeping all his utility but also adding to it by giving him emp.
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we dont know enough about zerg yet... you guys are assuming your using these ghosts vs an sc1 zerg army... assuming they still shoot slow, think about how easy banelings would smash these guys... Use some common sense guys.
But on the other hand, its silly for blizzard to give us a unit and tell us if its okay when we havnt a clue as to what zerg has in their arsenal for sc2.. How are we suppose to judge?
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On November 07 2007 16:44 Ftrunkz wrote:
we dont know enough about zerg yet...
Zerg wont affect TVP balance though wich is what most with a decent mindset is talking about. However it isnt hard to imagine that they will be OP vs zerg also due to it packing so much for its cost.
Edit: Also remember that phoenixes are light, so they get ubercountered by the ghost. Same with archons esp with emp. So the ghost is a hard counter to zealots, high/dark templars, archons, phoenixes and the stasis orb, thats like half of the toss units and against the other half they are still acting as a strong support with their abilities and such.
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Blizz should've been more concrete about that ghosts start with snipe only, and can get the other abilities only after upgrading at a higher point in the tech tree.
And people seriously... cut it out with the retarded theorycrafting, they even put 3 specific question to answer, but NOBODY answered them and most preferred to post some made up bullshit about ghosts being overpowered in a game they have never played and barely know anything about.
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They're ok for their cost tbh >.< 1000 minerals / 1000 ghost = 10 ghost + research + wait time for energy to recharge etc.
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Improve speed decrease hit points. The ghosts in sc1 and the demo were too damn slow....
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* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
More importantly, does the SCII Ghost like me? 
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Not in the least bit. My strategy is to expand and prevent my opponent from doing so, preferably killing them somewhere along the line. Nothing, short of thermonuclear ICBMs, can change that.
Now, will the new Ghost change my build orders and tactics? Yes, definetly. I can see myself going into mid-game m&m with Ghost support against Protoss. This forces my opponent to tech to Colossi, keeping me in control.
Drop Pods and Nukes are a world unto their own, but neither will win the game for me. Well, maybe continious Drop Pod reinforcements inside the enemy base will...
Harrassing workers with Ghosts alone seems viable, but the Ghost is too slow and expensive for my liking. Drop Pods it is.
Ghosts will be absolutely critical against Zerg. With Snipe, muta harass and Ultralisks won't be half as scary.
Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter.  BoxeR could make it work, I guess...
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On November 07 2007 20:22 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter. BoxeR could make it work, I guess...
Ofcourse you cant mass ghosts since the rest of the balance is intact. However the presence of ghosts invalidates to many units, 10 range makes it impossible to micro away from them and they arent as vulnerable as tanks are.
If they had no abilities at all id say that they were balanced, but now they become something you need in every game and not in few numbers. Its kinda like if we gave hydras ensare, brood and parasite...
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On November 07 2007 21:01 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 20:22 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter. BoxeR could make it work, I guess... Ofcourse you cant mass ghosts since the rest of the balance is intact. However the presence of ghosts invalidates to many units, 10 range makes it impossible to micro away from them and they arent as vulnerable as tanks are. If they had no abilities at all id say that they were balanced, but now they become something you need in every game and not in few numbers. Its kinda like if we gave hydras ensare, brood and parasite...
Yeah, 10 range is insane. I question your analogy, but it holds if you replace hydras with mutas.
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Isn't the Ghost's skill just to much for just a unit?They're way too expensive(+upgrades and time cost).Plus,they're light armored making them vulnerable to pretty much every type of attack.
Also,wheres the Nomads?Why is EMP with the Ghosts...rwar
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On November 07 2007 21:21 Bellart wrote:
Plus,they're light armored making them vulnerable to pretty much every type of attack.
Light armor is equal to small armor in starcraft, marines, zealots and zerglings uses the same for example.
However they have more units that are good vs light armor this time around, in sc it were only 3 units in the whole game and all were terran.
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On November 07 2007 21:32 Klockan3 wrote:
However they have more units that are good vs light armor this time around, in sc it were only 3 units in the whole game and all were terran.
I don't really know what you mean in this one.3 units that does what?
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TvT
Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
the ghost gets mauled by Mech specially by vikings.
How would you utilize the Ghost?
try nuking with it anyway. Ugh sensor tower exclamationmark thingy.
TvP
Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Nuke.
How would you utilize the Ghost?
Scan shoot observers, snipe hightemplars, retreat. Clifdrop expansions. Select 3 ghost snipe a stalker(edit wouldnt work not biological) if you run out of soft targets. Run from archons (feedback.)
TvZ
I have got no idea.
(200 energy/25=8snipes)*50dmg=400damage to heavy armoroured units 1200 dmg to light armour.= alot.
Compare this with Queen 150 energy for 1 kill.
Snipe better have a long cooldown
What is their attack cooldown and snipe cooldown.
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There's a lot of overestimation going on here. This new ghost isn't really so strong compared to it's high cost. Come on 100/100 that's the small version of a siege tank.
10 range is about what the original ghost already has, it's actually very logical that ghosts see further than turrets and use a long attacking distance.
Drop pods are getting overestimated, too. All of you know about the power of arbiter recall in sc:bw, right? So what's wrong with the drop pods?
The damage done by the new ghost actually seems to be very accurate so far, siege tanks do much more damage and deal splash damage, too.
The only thing that could (just could!) be a little bit imbalanced is the EMP - which is too weak in sc:bw imo, so I think it's good that in sc2 it will be a spell for the early game. It could be overpowered or it could be perfectly balanced, it's hard to say now. I just think it's a great idea to give this spell to the ghost and make it more accessible.
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Hard to say how I will use the ghost in sc2, in the long run it will perhaps prove to be very useful but it's hard to say if that counts for every matchup. I also don't know what the sniping ability will change, I hope it turns out to be effective.
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On November 07 2007 22:11 ForAdun wrote:
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Normal means about as fast as a zealot, wich is exactly the same as sc1 ghosts.
And you'll get almost 2 ghosts per tank, 10 range is a ton longer than 7 they had before now they cover twice the area, ghosts are a lot more mobile than tanks since they dont need to deploy, are good vs small instead of large and they can hit air. Only drawback is the lack of splash, but tanks would be fine wo splash if they didnt need to deploy and could hit air.
Hmm, that seems quite balanced, no? Untill you add all the ghosts abilities...
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On November 07 2007 22:55 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 22:11 ForAdun wrote:
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Normal means about as fast as a zealot, wich is exactly the same as sc1 ghosts. And you'll get almost 2 ghosts per tank, 10 range is a ton longer than 7 they had before now they cover twice the area, ghosts are a lot more mobile than tanks since they dont need to deploy, are good vs small instead of large and they can hit air. Only drawback is the lack of splash, but tanks would be fine wo splash if they didnt need to deploy and could hit air. Hmm, that seems quite balanced, no? Untill you add all the ghosts abilities...
I'll try to cover all that...
You don't "get almost 2 ghosts per tank". That's math.
Yep 10 range is more than 7 but there's no reason to say this would make ghosts overpowered, watch the unit cost.
Yes ghosts are more mobile than tanks which is ok because they do much less damage.
If tanks wouldn't deal splash damage and were able to hit air they were goliaths. Lets just make goliaths into tanks and everything is as it was before. Yes, this is meant to be sarcastic.
Also don't forget that sc1 has never become balanced (still isn't) and it took several patches for bw to become balanced.
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On November 07 2007 23:07 ForAdun wrote:
You don't "get almost 2 ghosts per tank". That's math.
How do you count? Tanks costs 200/125, thats quite a lot more than 1 ghost.
And since the ghosts fires a lot faster than the tanks they deal almost the same single target dps as the tank, just that they do it vs small instead of large. Now since the ghosts costs a lot less they do roughly 80% more single target dps /cost wich balances the fact that they are less good vs large.
Then the mobility and ability to hit air balances the splash. Then we add spells and have a totally OP unit.
Sure you wont be able to only build ghosts since they deal crap damage vs half the units(Wich means that they will act as normal casters in those cases), but since they are godlike vs the other half id still say that they are imbalanced.
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I thought tanks cost the same as in bw, my bad.
Then the ghost is indeed imbalanced.
I don't understand why blizz wants to raise unit costs, the old system worked well.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1
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On November 08 2007 02:57 Rekrul wrote:
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1
No im not, im comparing it to sc2 stats and it still got uber range and kills zealots, phoenixes, both templars, archons, stasis orbs, workers and observers easily.
And just for the record most sc2 stats are the same as sc1 stats, this unit is quite obviously overstacked with stats and abilities for its price.
But i doubt it will stay like this, i think that its just an experiment to get the discussion going. I mean compared to blizzcon ghost it has 45% more health, 45% more range, twice the damage, emp as new ability but doesn't cost anything more at all. Thats like the biggest buff to any unit in Blizzards full history.
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They should really take one of our ideas and add Jetpack too, the ghost would be the awesomest unit ever.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Putting both EMP and snipe on the ghost seems like a strange choice, as both will be used primarily against casters (I think that's the point anyway). So I'd say ditch EMP for something cooler!
25 Energy for a snipe is ridiculous, that means a ghost could possibly snipe 8 times in a row (maybe 9 depending on things like startup-time for the snipe and possible cooldowns) with full energy.
One thing I didn't see, maybe I'm blind and just missed it, is the foodcost. I guess they'll cost 2 food as well, on top of the 100/100 min/gas cost they're pretty pricy so they'd better make up for it in usability =)
The buffed stats seem ok to me, 100 hp is still weaksauce and the normal attack seems fine to me.
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All the ideas from Blizzard sound viable but I seriously think that they're trying a little too hard to make Ghosts usable in SC2. The Snipe ability + their ridiculous damage to small units means that Zerg is going to have a hell of a hard time killing these guys.
Although I guess the 100 Vespene cost is quite steep; probably not gonna be able to make these guys in bulk vs Z :-/
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* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
A: Yes, it sounds sweet.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
A: Depends entirely on if my casters are medium units and how many HP's they have...
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
A: Midgame: Support caster with snipe to bring down casters and other special units like medics.
Lategame, using EMP and snipe to take down larger groups of casters and using cloacked ghosts with droppods and nukes to harass.
--------------------------------
Everyone, remeber that we do NOT know how the ghost will fully play.
We don't know how fast snipe is (from the videos it seems like it's kind of slow). We don't know the HP and unit sizes of casters. We don't know the area and range of EMP.
We can assume some things. Like the fact that ghosts will probably 2 hit small units like marines and workers and 1 hit lings. That snipe will bring down small targets instantly and that cloack and EMP will probably come pretty late in the tech tree.
I personally think that it all depends on how big casters is. If only medics and ghosts are small and HT's, defilers or the substitution are normal then I don't see the problem because you need two ghosts to snipe one before he get's a storm of, which is quite an investment.
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On November 08 2007 03:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I personally think that it all depends on how big casters is. If only medics and ghosts are small and HT's, defilers or the substitution are normal then I don't see the problem because you need two ghosts to snipe one before he get's a storm of, which is quite an investment.
Templars are small...
Atleast they were at blizzcon.
http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/noirforest/imgs/2/a/2aa338a1.jpg?blog_id=1365618
Edit: Also since we got no other stats to go by we have to assume that they are still true. Without any context all the stats are useless to us anyway and this whole topic would be moot. We cant say if we like a unit if we dont know how fast it will kill stuff, how much it can take before dying and how fast and far it shoots, wich is why we have to do some basic assumptions to even answer the basic questions Blizzard gave us.
My conclusion after going through that is that Blizzard will nerf this unit since its to stacked now and since they will nerf it i cant say how i will use it, and if it werent nerfed i would use it a lot to capitalise on its current power. This is theorycrafting, yes, but thats exactly what they ask us to do.
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Hungary11291 Posts
I agree with the last post that the ghost sounds really stacked right now. It is a unit specialized in killing small units, with an additional ability helping to snipe these small units and a cloaking device. Those abilities alone would give it an unique role on the battlefield with a distinct task to accomplish. When looking at the versatility of the abilities, this kind of usage might be the primary one as it does not require as much planning and precision as the other modes.
So we have a unit which would be usable and fun, but there is more.
Specific anti-Protoss ability with an EMP shockwave - on a cloaked unit, this sounds pretty harsh, as no observers could mean no shields at any given time. Note the quite high cost in energy however.
Ability to order surgical strikes, either via droppods or nuklear missiles. While nuklear missiles are not used much in original BW (except mostly for ending games), droppods sound like the ideal replacement of dropships - no worries about getting shot down on the way, instant troops just where you want them, taking down expos left and right.
So in addition to the original use we have specific anti-protoss AND surgical harassing. And don't forget reconnaisance due to cloaking. Probably too many uses for a single unit, personally I prefer if my units have a certain, distinct thing they are very good at and which makes them part of the overall rocks / paper / scissors game. A unit with too many purposes does not fit into that too well.
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On November 08 2007 03:08 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 02:57 Rekrul wrote:
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1 No im not, im comparing it to sc2 stats and it still got uber range and kills zealots, phoenixes, both templars, archons, stasis orbs, workers and observers easily. And just for the record most sc2 stats are the same as sc1 stats, this unit is quite obviously overstacked with stats and abilities for its price. But i doubt it will stay like this, i think that its just an experiment to get the discussion going. I mean compared to blizzcon ghost it has 45% more health, 45% more range, twice the damage, emp as new ability but doesn't cost anything more at all. Thats like the biggest buff to any unit in Blizzards full history.
Kills zealots and phoenixes? Please explain how. Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. Even with snipe, that's an extra 50 damage which still won't kill a Zealot all that fast. Would take 3 snipes and 2 shots to take down a Zeal with a Ghost. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Killing works and obs has always been easy. At the rate of fire they have and their cost you will most likely not being massing Ghosts for min line raids. Obs die to pretty much any AA already, why are people complaining about this? You still need to detect the ob first. OBS ARE CLOAKED unless you've forgotten.
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On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon.
Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units)
Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
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On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
My mistake, zeals are small hence get the damage bonus. My apologies.
Phoenixes though I'm skeptical about. I'm unaware of them releasing that they were considered small and I don't remember anyone from Blizzcon saying that. I figured they would be medium like the sairs they were designed to replace. If they are indeed small then that may be a problem and I again apologize for the mistake. If you have a link to this, it would be appreciated.
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On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
Then don't mass phoenixes or zealots. Did you know vults and spidermines also kill zealots very fast? 20 concussive damage every hit at "fast" attack speed! 100 explosive splash damage mines! To top it off, vults also only cost 75 minerals/0 gas. OMG imba!
Only concern would be mutas dying too fast, but we have no idea how the rest of zerg is like. Mutas could serve a completely different role in the matchup.
Lesson of the day, stop theory crafting and just answer Blizzard's questions.
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By the way, just created a little test map giving the ghost the SC2 stats and it kills a zeal at point blank with 35/100 hp to spare. Starting at max range, the ghost gets down to 68/100 hp. That is with range 7, I forget how to edit the range in map editor.
I like the idea of a sniper actually doing damage (unlike SC1) but as has been stated 100 hp is a lot. May or may not be balanced out by cost but I would agree the hp should be dropped for both balance and thematic purposes.
Edit: Forgot there are questions to answer.
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
- Seems a bit OP in a pure theorycraft world using SC1 rules and what we know of SC2 as a basis. I like it's move to tier 1.5 so it sees use and I like it doing a bit more damage. However the hp buff is over the top I believe. Especially paired with medics. The range buff seems a bit too much, but that I'm more on the fence about. I don't know enough about the other skills, where in the tech tree they are, costs, and use to make to many guesses about those.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
- Probably.
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
- TvT: I don't see most of the ghost's skills being used much in TvT except for the nuke since I've heard it was moved down the tech tree. If TvT comes down to lots of tank stalemates then nukes will be an excellent defense cracker.
- TvZ: Don't know much about Zerg yet so assumptions would be based on SC1 Zerg. I don't see drop pods replacing drop ship raids as getting a drop ship into a zerg base seems like it would be easier than sneaking in a ghost. Snipe would be nice for taking out defilers if they are still in the game even though Defilers are medium. Assuming snipe is treated like a spell and assuming dark swarm is still there then a few snipes to get rid of a defiler could be the alternative to irradiate.
- TvP: Depends when the upgrades are available. EMP's most obvious use seems to be an anti-archon ability. Also something for razing Nexii faster. Snipe against HTs seems like a good reason to have a ghost or two in your army mix.
* Additional Feedback you would like to give
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On November 07 2007 05:53 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote + Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked Rofl, 10 range, 35 damage vs small!! Wee, 1 shot zerglings at tank range! 1 shot muta for 25 energy! If you have many you should even be able to counter heavy zerg units since snipe is so cheap and still deals 50 damage! Not to mention that they counter all toss as support with Emp, they counter all casters with emp, they counter Dt's and HT's easily with snipe. I think they went a bit overboard here... Now you wont do a mnm, you will do a gnm, with some rine support.
you're oblivious to the fact that Snipe requires a few seconds to 'load', until the actual fire + that it is very probable that snipe has some sort of cooldown
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On November 08 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 05:53 Klockan3 wrote: Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked Rofl, 10 range, 35 damage vs small!! Wee, 1 shot zerglings at tank range! 1 shot muta for 25 energy! If you have many you should even be able to counter heavy zerg units since snipe is so cheap and still deals 50 damage! Not to mention that they counter all toss as support with Emp, they counter all casters with emp, they counter Dt's and HT's easily with snipe. I think they went a bit overboard here... Now you wont do a mnm, you will do a gnm, with some rine support. you're oblivious to the fact that Snipe requires a few seconds to 'load', until the actual fire + that it is very probable that snipe has some sort of cooldown
gnm also won't be really good due to cost issues and ghosts sucking damage wise against anything not small.
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I read through several replies... some people saying things I have said before and agree with still. As a Terran, yeah the Ghost would be "fun" now... I always liked Ghosts despite their difficulty in application in a serious game. But after a few days I think it'd prove overpowered and limiting though from the receiving end. This is considering the other races play something like they do now. Nothing is certain without playing, but if it's fairly easy to build ghosts....
My main beef is EMP and long range worker killing. They are countering units like the high templar so well, you'll never build high templar/archons/defilers/mutas if the Terran has a few ghosts. Too limiting in my opinion as those are some of the most fun units. But I would like to comment on some of these points in Phyre's post.
Damage (with snipe) like a DT is a big deal b/c of the range of a ghost. Static defense won't be stopping him like it would a DT. Think of the annoyance factor of Bisu's DTs in your worker line but from range 10... killing and not being alerted... and you can't even defend with a couple of sunkens and overlords. You'll have to have about 4 sunkens and 4 overlords to cover your base b/c of the range... completely impossible to do (in BW terms) unless sunkens are free now.
Coutering observers from 10 away is too good. Observers are supposed to counter the ghost, remember?
The Ghost probably has too many HP, yeah.
Bonus damage. I'm mostly worried about snipe. In other words, do over 100 dmg to all workers so they will one hit kill workers with each snipe. Just sounds too good on a unit with that much utility as opposed to say a high templar who uses mana for AOE and then is out of attacks. Even without snipe, one EMP and then regular attacks will kill probes in one shot. I wouldnt be surprised if with one or two weapon upgrades they do +5 or +6 damage and kill probes/drones one shot.
On November 07 2007 09:43 Phyre wrote:
Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
Ghost is cloaked
- It's upgradeable, you don't know how late in the tech tree cloak will become available. DT's have it without upgrades and it's on permanently.
Near the same damage as DTs?
- Yeah, only against Light Armored units. If we are correct in interpreting Light Armor as SC1's small units then this really isn't a problem. They aren't any more dangerous to your mineral line than Vults are in SC1 and the only light armored units that would now really fear ghosts are DT's and HT's. Terran infantry is still at least 2 shots to kill. They do a whopping 5 damage to everything else. 5 is hardly the DT's 40 damage to everything.
Range 10
- Again, at a whopping 5 damage a shot they aren't exactly threatening your sunk line anytime soon. Or any other static defenses for that matter.
Hard counter to observers
- Since when have Obs been hard to kill if you detected them before? If they retain their 60 hp from SC1, it still takes 2 shots to kill an ob.
@Jyvblamo: How do Ghosts have more hp than any biological unit? Are you not taking into account shields? Counting shields, the only P unit the Ghost has more hp than is the HT.
@XCetron: I doubt their bonus damage is applied twice. It's probably 5+30=35 damage done total to a probe and then it would be taken care of in the same way SC1 handled shields. The probe would be left with 5 hp and it's shields would start regening. So still 2 shot kills on probes, like Vults did.
I agree that the ghost now has ALOT of abilities but it's hardly a "mass this and win" button. The only thing that really scares me in terms of balance is if the Muta still counts as a small unit (light armored) then Snipe is a 1 shot kill. Perhaps in the absence of Irradiate Terrans will require a hard counter to Mutas but Ghosts having this ability at tier 1.5 might be too much of a counter. The HP does seem high as well.
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By the way, Karune has posted some more interesting statistics about the ghost:
On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
5 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
Ghosts seem to be a counter to basic units even without using snipe. Although I like that snipe doesn't 1-hit zealots.
Ghosts will probably kill workers in 2 hits. Now, they also outrange most static defense. Superior worker harass? I think so 
EDIT: Karune made a mistake. It actually takes 5 shots to kill a zealot from a ghost.
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On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
3 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
I really really hate this. This seems to me that they are taking the idea of hard counters way too far. A lot of the charm about SC was that even if you are countered, your units can still be effective if used correctly and with micro. Look at the vulture-dragoon, muta - archon, marine - lurker relationships. This seem to slam the door shut on all those micro possibilities. It will be completely like Age of Empires where you can have ridiculous cost effectiveness with counter units, and battles revolved around dodging counter units of the enemy and utilizing your own. It simply isn't SC.
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On November 08 2007 07:07 AlabasterFilth wrote:By the way, Karune has posted some more interesting statistics about the ghost: Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
3 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units. Ghosts seem to be a counter to basic units even without using snipe. Although I like that snipe doesn't 1-hit zealots. Ghosts will probably kill workers in 2 hits. Now, they also outrange most static defense. Superior worker harass? I think so
3 shot kill on a zeal? Does this mean the zeal has 105 hp now? 35*3 = 105...
The idea of this strong of a hard counter doesn't really appeal to me. Doesn't this take away from the role of the firebat too? I suppose cost might help balance it out but shouldn't we try to avoid too much role overlap? Perhaps if they dropped the hp a bit it wouldn't be so bad.
I think I'll be walking over to the "ghost is looking more imba" camp now...
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On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
5 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
To put this into perspective:
2 vult shots kills a zergling
2 vult shots kills a marine/probe/drone
8 vult shots kills a zealot
Vults have faster attack and move speed than ghosts (but less range). Vults cost 75 min/0 gas (expendable), while ghost costs 100 min/100 gas (costly). Mines also are pretty good all around against a whole bunch of other ground units.
As for firing on static D, Siege tanks and Thors would be a far greater threat than a ghost (aside from nuking).
Snipe does seem a bit overpowered currently though, but I guess it'll depend on exactly how long the cooldown for the attack is and the damage can always be toned down if necessary.
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
So far, I like the concept of the ghost. Balance can be tweaked later.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Yes, I might actually make use of them now, even when my name is not Boxer.
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
Too early to tell. Release Zerg race first then we can talk.
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Ghosts shouldn't have too much more hp than an average marine.
Snipe is one ability that I really like the ghost to have. I don't like droppods though. You should just build your own dropship with marines please.
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I think the changes are headed in the right direction.
Think of the ghost more as a DT that is not permanently cloaked, with added abilities to make up for this handicap.
The ghost's role is now being modelled after the DT's role - to penetrate deep into enemy territory and then do damage. That's probably why it's now tier 1.5, and probably the reason for the drop pod and nuclear strike. You might be able to have it lounge around and snipe templars as they come out, thus delaying the protoss's push.
Later in the game, ghosts will probably become less useful in this role, unless you get lucky with a drop pod and a nuclear strike (the way DTs don't work quite so well later in the game because scans and turrets are already in play). That's when the ghost is switched to a supporting role ala the Science Vessel with its EMP.
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Am I the only one who thinks this topic is kind of pointless? None of us know the specifics of the different unit stats in the game and even all of that is up for grabs.
At best all we can do is comment on some basic role concepts. In that sense, I'm skeptical about drop pods but the rest sounds potentially interesting, depending upon how Blizzard is balancing all of the damage in the game. In fact, it's those bigger balance issues that I care more about, but I don't see Blizzard asking for advice in that area and others. If you ask me that's probably where they need the most help. :\
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I basically don't like cloaked killercasters in SC. Lockdown was ok, because it can't effect the outcome of an engagement that easy, but EMP + Cloak? Imagine Cloak + Psi Storm... lol, I wouldn't even play that, because it's too gay of a combo. You can make that with the Heroes in TFT, but don't turn Starcraft into Warcraft, PLEASE!
Simply the Ghosts stats seem like a really good counter against Z early on and as P player I'm just hoping this can't be, sniping cloaked units could proove pretty hard when there are massive armies clashing. I think they are a bit overpowered... but lets just see.
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This is gonna take forever to make, Blizzard are asking us about the unit concept and we scream about balance rofl. If it had 12 abilities and they all sucked would you guys be happy?
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They NEED jetpacks and then and only then they will be balanced.
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On November 08 2007 21:31 lololol wrote:
They NEED jetpacks and then and only then they will be balanced.
Heheh... actually, giving Ghosts jetpacks would give the Terran some incentive to use them for worker harrass, as opposed to Dropships. However, besides looking lame (I'd rather see Ghosts climbing walls oh-so slowly) every Ghost is already a hero-ranked, well, hero. Less firepower, more versatility I say.
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If blizzard was interested in feedback on balance they would add a question about it.
Thats why the questions asked by them have nothing to do with balance issues. Because people who havent played cant have a spherical view about balance. Far from it.
However the questions asked cannot be answered seriously too without playing it. I mean , well yeah i like it. I will use it if it proves to be a viable powerfull option that will help me win. The way that i ll use it can be discovered after i have played sc2.
Imagine they had asked the same questions before sc1. Will you use the ghost that is cloacked and launches nukes? Sure why not
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Hungary11291 Posts
On November 08 2007 22:06 Titanidis wrote:
If blizzard was interested in feedback on balance they would add a question about it.
Tell me how the formulations: * Will the new Ghost change your strategy? and * How would you utilize the Ghost? are not strongly interwoven with balancing issues. A unit which is too weak won't change my strategy and I will not use it. An overpowered unit might lead me to including it into every strategical framework I conjecture and make me use it at any possible occasion. So while the question might not be ALL about balance, balance is a crucial part of it.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Hardcore theorycrafting will not be tolerated here.
Thanks.
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On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
Yes, the current ghost would be a hard counter to zealots, more or less. And being a hard counter to small air, casters, and basic ground troops seems wrong in a design way. Popping ghosts in and out of dropships would devastate a lot of Protoss units. The only thing left are stalkers and immortals. So this turns the first half of a game into all goons, get ready to lose most of your observers and no other options till Colossus, carriers, mothership? Way too limiting.
Hell, if Blizzard was serious about these stats, they might as well give ghosts cloak detection.
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I don't agree with people saying ghosts do so litte dmg(5) to units that aren't light. Marines do 6 dmg at 4 range (5 with upgrade) while the ghost is doing 5 dmg at 10 range.
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WTF ppl stop theorycrafting please. Do you even know the stats of the zealots? or whatever other protoss units? WTF is wrong with you guys -.-;;;
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I like how no one in this thread is taking into account the position of cloak, EMP, and drop pod upgrades on the tech tree, and their energy costs combined with the ghosts fragile-ness.
So many people have posted that they think the ghost is magically going to be imbalanced because it can do these things? You have to look at where the ghost comes into play in the game flow + where blizzard will be putting cloak/emp/drop pod upgrades, because as long as EMP/CLOAK are higher up on the tech tree, then ghosts will not be imbalanced whatsoever even with all of these potential abilities.
and then, after all of that consideration, then it'll come down to mechanics and unit control: will a player be able to perfectly execute ghost usage like they're boxer? I doubt it...
And don't forget what a couple other people said: stop comparing an SC2 ghost balance-wise with SC1 units. A lot of the comparisons and theorycrafting probably won't even apply o_o
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On November 08 2007 10:57 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
5 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units. To put this into perspective: 2 vult shots kills a zergling 2 vult shots kills a marine/probe/drone 8 vult shots kills a zealot Vults have faster attack and move speed than ghosts (but less range). Vults cost 75 min/0 gas (expendable), while ghost costs 100 min/100 gas (costly). Mines also are pretty good all around against a whole bunch of other ground units. + Show Spoiler +
As for firing on static D, Siege tanks and Thors would be a far greater threat than a ghost (aside from nuking).
Snipe does seem a bit overpowered currently though, but I guess it'll depend on exactly how long the cooldown for the attack is and the damage can always be toned down if necessary.
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
So far, I like the concept of the ghost. Balance can be tweaked later.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Yes, I might actually make use of them now, even when my name is not Boxer.
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
Too early to tell. Release Zerg race first then we can talk.
Ghosts attacks nearly 50% faster than vultures and can attack air, come again please.
http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml
On November 09 2007 03:24 avilo wrote:
I like how no one in this thread is taking into account the position of cloak, EMP, and drop pod upgrades on the tech tree, and their energy costs combined with the ghosts fragile-ness.
The abilities are fine, the combat stats are not however on a unit with any useful abilities whatsoever and now the ghost is stacked with useful abilities its both a useful caster and a strong combat unit for the cost of just the combat unit.
And i dont say that they need a huge nerf, if they nerf atleast one of their stats down to Blizzcon levels they would be fine enough to not be able to tell if they are overpowered or not without playing.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I dislike how Blizzard makes a spec-op themed unit a jack of all trades must-have-in-any-matchup unit. That could make sense or infantry or tanks, but not for ghosts.
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On November 09 2007 06:58 BluzMan wrote:
I dislike how Blizzard makes a spec-op themed unit a jack of all trades must-have-in-any-matchup unit. That could make sense or infantry or tanks, but not for ghosts.
Yeah, Ghosts should be special units that are powerful in certain situations, expensive, but rather redundant if you build too many.
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Okay, so I have a stupidly long post, but here we go anyways. I think Terran play was the most dynamic and varied in the original game when they played against Z. In both other matchups, metal was all too powerful and bio was just too weak in general against tank/storm/reaver. However, one of the bigger pitfalls of TvZ is the predictability of the tech and which branch the Terran player would take.
MnM
Add Tank
Add Science Vessle
This is basically the formula, and it's a shame, because Blizzard has 2 other well designed models to look at which would improve this greatly, for example: Zerg lair tech, you choose muta or lurker (though lately at higher levels, it's only been muta into lurker exclusively) Protoss, Robo Bay or Citadel. This method of branching off varies the strategies and skills players need to develop.
With a Ghost that can not only be used to damage biological tergets, but imobalize mechanical ones, there create the risk of over reliance on a certain tech direction in almost any matchup. Terran will probably end up being forced to choose the ghost to be able to compete with their opponents at all. So, my first proposition is for Blizzard to analyze the tech tree and see if they want the Ghost to be a branch in it, or to be a stepping stone for the Terrans next tech decision.
My second argument is against the current implementation of the drop pod, it seems as if late game, their will undermine positional play that is essential in competitive Starcraft. Since there seems to be a willingness to make nukes and drop pods more viable, you need to somehow make balances for it, In many late game situations it seems that the ghost will be able to perform the function of a dropship without any of the risk inherent in it form the original (scourge/AA) thus undermining the opposition in having to gain aerial supremacy. The two obvious solutions would be to either make it ridiculously expensive (thus underused) or have the ghost become very vulnerable if they attempt to cast this. I think you can find a better solution however, so I'll leave it for now.
In the end I think you are taking the idea of Terran harassment a bit far, you still need to Terran ball to be the primary method with which they do damage, and if you want to harass there has to be more risk involved. I think it's been partially corrected by converting the Cobras attack into non-splash because of the inherent imbalance against supply lines without detection (ie. a fresh expansion).
So, I haven't exactly done it in format, but I hope I've said something worth listening to in the end, and that you think about how the Ghost can affect Terran play from now on.
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What I'm wondering how exactly Toss are supposed to deal with them assuming, Observers will still be classed as small units - They'd two-shoot observers without snipe, and thier shooting range is equal to that of the sight range of the observer(unupgraded) - In practive this would mean that you'd have essentially no realistically effective way to keep your observers alive in a PvT engagement if the terran exhibits some basic micro.
I guess it'd actually make Nukes quite useful in TvP though - Cloak, aim nuke, scan & have a few spare ghosts shoot any observers trying to get close, emp nexus before hit, watch fireworks  .
Anyway, I'd expect them to either change the observer's size class to medium, or alternatively tone down the lurdiculous range of the Ghost when eventually mucking around with the unit balance, because unless Toss suddenly gained some new form of mobile detection, I'm having trouble seeing just how they're supposed to cope with them - I mean, how many other units are there in the game that are an extremely hard counter against the very unit that's supposed to counter them?
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On November 10 2007 11:21 Muey wrote:What I'm wondering how exactly Toss are supposed to deal with them assuming, Observers will still be classed as small units - They'd two-shoot observers without snipe, and thier shooting range is equal to that of the sight range of the observer(unupgraded) - In practive this would mean that you'd have essentially no realistically effective way to keep your observers alive in a PvT engagement if the terran exhibits some basic micro. I guess it'd actually make Nukes quite useful in TvP though - Cloak, aim nuke, scan & have a few spare ghosts shoot any observers trying to get close, emp nexus before hit, watch fireworks . Anyway, I'd expect them to either change the observer's size class to medium, or alternatively tone down the lurdiculous range of the Ghost when eventually mucking around with the unit balance, because unless Toss suddenly gained some new form of mobile detection, I'm having trouble seeing just how they're supposed to cope with them - I mean, how many other units are there in the game that are an extremely hard counter against the very unit that's supposed to counter them? I think a good solution to that would be to ensure that their damage type does not get a bonus vs psi shields.
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On November 10 2007 14:52 Zanno wrote:
I think a good solution to that would be to ensure that their damage type does not get a bonus vs psi shields.
I was actually thinking that first, but then came to the conclusion that it defeats pretty much their entire purpose of being effective against small (and biological) units, at least as far as Protoss are concerned.
I mean, you could 3-shoot the the HP of the Zealot with shields down, but that doesn't do you much good if you'd need 12 shots just to get to that point since your gun acts like a damned pea-shooter as long as the shields stay up.
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On November 11 2007 09:39 Muey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 14:52 Zanno wrote:
I think a good solution to that would be to ensure that their damage type does not get a bonus vs psi shields. I was actually thinking that first, but then came to the conclusion that it defeats pretty much their entire purpose of being effective against small (and biological) units, at least as far as Protoss are concerned. I mean, you could 3-shoot the the HP of the Zealot with shields down, but that doesn't do you much good if you'd need 12 shots just to get to that point since your gun acts like a damned pea-shooter as long as the shields stay up.
Thats what EMP is for! Anyways I'd rather see the ghost as a support role or as the terran dark templar (as many have mentioned), rather than an anti-small unit (we already have lots of those ~.~)
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On November 09 2007 03:24 avilo wrote:
I like how no one in this thread is taking into account the position of cloak, EMP, and drop pod upgrades on the tech tree, and their energy costs combined with the ghosts fragile-ness.
So many people have posted that they think the ghost is magically going to be imbalanced because it can do these things? You have to look at where the ghost comes into play in the game flow + where blizzard will be putting cloak/emp/drop pod upgrades, because as long as EMP/CLOAK are higher up on the tech tree, then ghosts will not be imbalanced whatsoever even with all of these potential abilities.
and then, after all of that consideration, then it'll come down to mechanics and unit control: will a player be able to perfectly execute ghost usage like they're boxer? I doubt it...
And don't forget what a couple other people said: stop comparing an SC2 ghost balance-wise with SC1 units. A lot of the comparisons and theorycrafting probably won't even apply o_o
Except the nuke... Which has got to be early because it is so outrageously fun to do.
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EPT
