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On November 07 2007 20:22 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter.  BoxeR could make it work, I guess...
Ofcourse you cant mass ghosts since the rest of the balance is intact. However the presence of ghosts invalidates to many units, 10 range makes it impossible to micro away from them and they arent as vulnerable as tanks are.
If they had no abilities at all id say that they were balanced, but now they become something you need in every game and not in few numbers. Its kinda like if we gave hydras ensare, brood and parasite...
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On November 07 2007 21:01 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 20:22 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter. BoxeR could make it work, I guess... Ofcourse you cant mass ghosts since the rest of the balance is intact. However the presence of ghosts invalidates to many units, 10 range makes it impossible to micro away from them and they arent as vulnerable as tanks are. If they had no abilities at all id say that they were balanced, but now they become something you need in every game and not in few numbers. Its kinda like if we gave hydras ensare, brood and parasite...
Yeah, 10 range is insane. I question your analogy, but it holds if you replace hydras with mutas.
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Isn't the Ghost's skill just to much for just a unit?They're way too expensive(+upgrades and time cost).Plus,they're light armored making them vulnerable to pretty much every type of attack.
Also,wheres the Nomads?Why is EMP with the Ghosts...rwar
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On November 07 2007 21:21 Bellart wrote:
Plus,they're light armored making them vulnerable to pretty much every type of attack.
Light armor is equal to small armor in starcraft, marines, zealots and zerglings uses the same for example.
However they have more units that are good vs light armor this time around, in sc it were only 3 units in the whole game and all were terran.
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On November 07 2007 21:32 Klockan3 wrote:
However they have more units that are good vs light armor this time around, in sc it were only 3 units in the whole game and all were terran.
I don't really know what you mean in this one.3 units that does what?
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TvT
Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
the ghost gets mauled by Mech specially by vikings.
How would you utilize the Ghost?
try nuking with it anyway. Ugh sensor tower exclamationmark thingy.
TvP
Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Nuke.
How would you utilize the Ghost?
Scan shoot observers, snipe hightemplars, retreat. Clifdrop expansions. Select 3 ghost snipe a stalker(edit wouldnt work not biological) if you run out of soft targets. Run from archons (feedback.)
TvZ
I have got no idea.
(200 energy/25=8snipes)*50dmg=400damage to heavy armoroured units 1200 dmg to light armour.= alot.
Compare this with Queen 150 energy for 1 kill.
Snipe better have a long cooldown
What is their attack cooldown and snipe cooldown.
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There's a lot of overestimation going on here. This new ghost isn't really so strong compared to it's high cost. Come on 100/100 that's the small version of a siege tank.
10 range is about what the original ghost already has, it's actually very logical that ghosts see further than turrets and use a long attacking distance.
Drop pods are getting overestimated, too. All of you know about the power of arbiter recall in sc:bw, right? So what's wrong with the drop pods?
The damage done by the new ghost actually seems to be very accurate so far, siege tanks do much more damage and deal splash damage, too.
The only thing that could (just could!) be a little bit imbalanced is the EMP - which is too weak in sc:bw imo, so I think it's good that in sc2 it will be a spell for the early game. It could be overpowered or it could be perfectly balanced, it's hard to say now. I just think it's a great idea to give this spell to the ghost and make it more accessible.
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Hard to say how I will use the ghost in sc2, in the long run it will perhaps prove to be very useful but it's hard to say if that counts for every matchup. I also don't know what the sniping ability will change, I hope it turns out to be effective.
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On November 07 2007 22:11 ForAdun wrote:
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Normal means about as fast as a zealot, wich is exactly the same as sc1 ghosts.
And you'll get almost 2 ghosts per tank, 10 range is a ton longer than 7 they had before now they cover twice the area, ghosts are a lot more mobile than tanks since they dont need to deploy, are good vs small instead of large and they can hit air. Only drawback is the lack of splash, but tanks would be fine wo splash if they didnt need to deploy and could hit air.
Hmm, that seems quite balanced, no? Untill you add all the ghosts abilities...
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On November 07 2007 22:55 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 22:11 ForAdun wrote:
And yeah I'd also like to know what firing rate ghosts have in sc2.
Normal means about as fast as a zealot, wich is exactly the same as sc1 ghosts. And you'll get almost 2 ghosts per tank, 10 range is a ton longer than 7 they had before now they cover twice the area, ghosts are a lot more mobile than tanks since they dont need to deploy, are good vs small instead of large and they can hit air. Only drawback is the lack of splash, but tanks would be fine wo splash if they didnt need to deploy and could hit air. Hmm, that seems quite balanced, no? Untill you add all the ghosts abilities...
I'll try to cover all that...
You don't "get almost 2 ghosts per tank". That's math.
Yep 10 range is more than 7 but there's no reason to say this would make ghosts overpowered, watch the unit cost.
Yes ghosts are more mobile than tanks which is ok because they do much less damage.
If tanks wouldn't deal splash damage and were able to hit air they were goliaths. Lets just make goliaths into tanks and everything is as it was before. Yes, this is meant to be sarcastic.
Also don't forget that sc1 has never become balanced (still isn't) and it took several patches for bw to become balanced.
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On November 07 2007 23:07 ForAdun wrote:
You don't "get almost 2 ghosts per tank". That's math.
How do you count? Tanks costs 200/125, thats quite a lot more than 1 ghost.
And since the ghosts fires a lot faster than the tanks they deal almost the same single target dps as the tank, just that they do it vs small instead of large. Now since the ghosts costs a lot less they do roughly 80% more single target dps /cost wich balances the fact that they are less good vs large.
Then the mobility and ability to hit air balances the splash. Then we add spells and have a totally OP unit.
Sure you wont be able to only build ghosts since they deal crap damage vs half the units(Wich means that they will act as normal casters in those cases), but since they are godlike vs the other half id still say that they are imbalanced.
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I thought tanks cost the same as in bw, my bad.
Then the ghost is indeed imbalanced.
I don't understand why blizz wants to raise unit costs, the old system worked well.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1
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On November 08 2007 02:57 Rekrul wrote:
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1
No im not, im comparing it to sc2 stats and it still got uber range and kills zealots, phoenixes, both templars, archons, stasis orbs, workers and observers easily.
And just for the record most sc2 stats are the same as sc1 stats, this unit is quite obviously overstacked with stats and abilities for its price.
But i doubt it will stay like this, i think that its just an experiment to get the discussion going. I mean compared to blizzcon ghost it has 45% more health, 45% more range, twice the damage, emp as new ability but doesn't cost anything more at all. Thats like the biggest buff to any unit in Blizzards full history.
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They should really take one of our ideas and add Jetpack too, the ghost would be the awesomest unit ever.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Putting both EMP and snipe on the ghost seems like a strange choice, as both will be used primarily against casters (I think that's the point anyway). So I'd say ditch EMP for something cooler!
25 Energy for a snipe is ridiculous, that means a ghost could possibly snipe 8 times in a row (maybe 9 depending on things like startup-time for the snipe and possible cooldowns) with full energy.
One thing I didn't see, maybe I'm blind and just missed it, is the foodcost. I guess they'll cost 2 food as well, on top of the 100/100 min/gas cost they're pretty pricy so they'd better make up for it in usability =)
The buffed stats seem ok to me, 100 hp is still weaksauce and the normal attack seems fine to me.
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All the ideas from Blizzard sound viable but I seriously think that they're trying a little too hard to make Ghosts usable in SC2. The Snipe ability + their ridiculous damage to small units means that Zerg is going to have a hell of a hard time killing these guys.
Although I guess the 100 Vespene cost is quite steep; probably not gonna be able to make these guys in bulk vs Z :-/
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* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
A: Yes, it sounds sweet.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
A: Depends entirely on if my casters are medium units and how many HP's they have...
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
A: Midgame: Support caster with snipe to bring down casters and other special units like medics.
Lategame, using EMP and snipe to take down larger groups of casters and using cloacked ghosts with droppods and nukes to harass.
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Everyone, remeber that we do NOT know how the ghost will fully play.
We don't know how fast snipe is (from the videos it seems like it's kind of slow). We don't know the HP and unit sizes of casters. We don't know the area and range of EMP.
We can assume some things. Like the fact that ghosts will probably 2 hit small units like marines and workers and 1 hit lings. That snipe will bring down small targets instantly and that cloack and EMP will probably come pretty late in the tech tree.
I personally think that it all depends on how big casters is. If only medics and ghosts are small and HT's, defilers or the substitution are normal then I don't see the problem because you need two ghosts to snipe one before he get's a storm of, which is quite an investment.
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On November 08 2007 03:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I personally think that it all depends on how big casters is. If only medics and ghosts are small and HT's, defilers or the substitution are normal then I don't see the problem because you need two ghosts to snipe one before he get's a storm of, which is quite an investment.
Templars are small...
Atleast they were at blizzcon.
http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/noirforest/imgs/2/a/2aa338a1.jpg?blog_id=1365618
Edit: Also since we got no other stats to go by we have to assume that they are still true. Without any context all the stats are useless to us anyway and this whole topic would be moot. We cant say if we like a unit if we dont know how fast it will kill stuff, how much it can take before dying and how fast and far it shoots, wich is why we have to do some basic assumptions to even answer the basic questions Blizzard gave us.
My conclusion after going through that is that Blizzard will nerf this unit since its to stacked now and since they will nerf it i cant say how i will use it, and if it werent nerfed i would use it a lot to capitalise on its current power. This is theorycrafting, yes, but thats exactly what they ask us to do.
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Hungary11291 Posts
I agree with the last post that the ghost sounds really stacked right now. It is a unit specialized in killing small units, with an additional ability helping to snipe these small units and a cloaking device. Those abilities alone would give it an unique role on the battlefield with a distinct task to accomplish. When looking at the versatility of the abilities, this kind of usage might be the primary one as it does not require as much planning and precision as the other modes.
So we have a unit which would be usable and fun, but there is more.
Specific anti-Protoss ability with an EMP shockwave - on a cloaked unit, this sounds pretty harsh, as no observers could mean no shields at any given time. Note the quite high cost in energy however.
Ability to order surgical strikes, either via droppods or nuklear missiles. While nuklear missiles are not used much in original BW (except mostly for ending games), droppods sound like the ideal replacement of dropships - no worries about getting shot down on the way, instant troops just where you want them, taking down expos left and right.
So in addition to the original use we have specific anti-protoss AND surgical harassing. And don't forget reconnaisance due to cloaking. Probably too many uses for a single unit, personally I prefer if my units have a certain, distinct thing they are very good at and which makes them part of the overall rocks / paper / scissors game. A unit with too many purposes does not fit into that too well.
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On November 08 2007 03:08 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 02:57 Rekrul wrote:
lmao @ this thread
ur comparing a sc2 unit to sc1 No im not, im comparing it to sc2 stats and it still got uber range and kills zealots, phoenixes, both templars, archons, stasis orbs, workers and observers easily. And just for the record most sc2 stats are the same as sc1 stats, this unit is quite obviously overstacked with stats and abilities for its price. But i doubt it will stay like this, i think that its just an experiment to get the discussion going. I mean compared to blizzcon ghost it has 45% more health, 45% more range, twice the damage, emp as new ability but doesn't cost anything more at all. Thats like the biggest buff to any unit in Blizzards full history.
Kills zealots and phoenixes? Please explain how. Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. Even with snipe, that's an extra 50 damage which still won't kill a Zealot all that fast. Would take 3 snipes and 2 shots to take down a Zeal with a Ghost. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Killing works and obs has always been easy. At the rate of fire they have and their cost you will most likely not being massing Ghosts for min line raids. Obs die to pretty much any AA already, why are people complaining about this? You still need to detect the ob first. OBS ARE CLOAKED unless you've forgotten.
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EPT
