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On November 07 2007 08:58 Konni wrote:
you could counter nearly any current zerg unit (bw) with these new ghosts alone
although they're quite expensive
select 1 (30 ghosts)
s (snipe) click
s click
s click
s click
s click
s click
..
zerg army dead
2 Ultralisks OR 4 Lurker.
Anyways, this seems like a good move for the incorporation of ghosts into the army. They will obviously be very gas heavy, and it seems like you will have to find a balance between tanks and ghosts. Personally I wonder just how long the snipe time is, seeing as that will be a major part of the new ghost's role in the Terran army. Spells like emp and snipe with a huge small unit damage bonus is going to make them a staple unit like the tank.
Another thing you guys should take into account is the build time. Ghosts obviously aren't going to be popping out as fast as medics so you're going to have to free up some barracks and tech labs to build them, balancing them greatly. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a similar build time to the original ghosts because of their new and now obviously superior role in the Terran army.
In Conclusion, New ghosts = Walking Science Vessel.
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It sounds very cool, with possibility of being imbalanced. Nevertheless I do think that improving the viability of ghosts is necessary.
The other questions are impossible to know without trying out the game and testing them against game context, relative cost efficiency and tech timings. Only noobs are going to have "strategies" at this point in time, and they are those who will whine the most when their ideas come crashing down at release time.
Edit: In the current BW paradigm, a 100/100 unit which can be built the same time as goons, with strong default capabilities vs basic units and numerous spell capabilities seems severely imbalanced. BW casters have always had negligible combat ability and are very fragile, and I would like it to remain that way. I would NOT like to see an army of 20 ghosts walking around. I feel it would be good if they are like templar in the current Protoss arsenal, w/ 4-6 in a 2-3 control group army. With their default combat capabilities and cloak, that seems like way too much power that is easy to control. At least the vessel right now is fragile, has no attack, and is very mechanically demanding.
Edit 2: I forgot to mention it also has gigantic range. 10 is more than the current range of a reaver, and only slightly less than a tank. Even 5 damage at these ranges is quite an addition to your army.
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United States20661 Posts
I do think the normal attack is too strong as it is. Snipe is enough for straight damage - 25 energy is fairly cheap to do essentially what irradiate could, at a faster rate.
Come to think of it, snipe is much stronger than irradiate - as it is, defilers, templar, etc will all fall before they're able to be used.
100 hp is also too much - 45 hp ghosts were sensible. They don't have to be strong combat units - and Terran was always low hp high damage anyways.
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On November 07 2007 06:45 Klockan3 wrote:
But the ghost is cloaked, got near the same damage and same attackspeed as DT, can shoot air and got 10! range. Towers got 7 range...
Sure if they had these stats and 7 range as before it could be fine but 10 range is extreme. Imagine a bunker creep with ghosts, tanks and some turrets, nothing can get close. Ghosts also now are extremely hard counters against observers since they shoot almost as far as the observer sees and they deal 35 dmg vs it.
Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
Ghost is cloaked
- It's upgradeable, you don't know how late in the tech tree cloak will become available. DT's have it without upgrades and it's on permanently.
Near the same damage as DTs?
- Yeah, only against Light Armored units. If we are correct in interpreting Light Armor as SC1's small units then this really isn't a problem. They aren't any more dangerous to your mineral line than Vults are in SC1 and the only light armored units that would now really fear ghosts are DT's and HT's. Terran infantry is still at least 2 shots to kill. They do a whopping 5 damage to everything else. 5 is hardly the DT's 40 damage to everything.
Range 10
- Again, at a whopping 5 damage a shot they aren't exactly threatening your sunk line anytime soon. Or any other static defenses for that matter.
Hard counter to observers
- Since when have Obs been hard to kill if you detected them before? If they retain their 60 hp from SC1, it still takes 2 shots to kill an ob.
@Jyvblamo: How do Ghosts have more hp than any biological unit? Are you not taking into account shields? Counting shields, the only P unit the Ghost has more hp than is the HT.
@XCetron: I doubt their bonus damage is applied twice. It's probably 5+30=35 damage done total to a probe and then it would be taken care of in the same way SC1 handled shields. The probe would be left with 5 hp and it's shields would start regening. So still 2 shot kills on probes, like Vults did.
I agree that the ghost now has ALOT of abilities but it's hardly a "mass this and win" button. The only thing that really scares me in terms of balance is if the Muta still counts as a small unit (light armored) then Snipe is a 1 shot kill. Perhaps in the absence of Irradiate Terrans will require a hard counter to Mutas but Ghosts having this ability at tier 1.5 might be too much of a counter. The HP does seem high as well.
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@_@
These new Ghosts make me cry inside
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LOL NOOOOOOOOO MAKE THE SCII THEORYTCRAFT GO AWAY.
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25 energy seems pretty cheap at the moment. Something closer to 50 might seem reasonable, but then again, its 100 gas for a 1.5 tier infantry unit. But at 100 hp, at least its a little more durable.
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how long is the cast time for snipe?
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100 HP kind of wrecks the previously established theme for the unit. The abilities seem overpowered presented all together, but as said, might be much later in the tech tree. It seems logical that the Ghost will start with cloak already researched and then the subsequent abilities being researchable upgrades farther up in tech.
The attempt to make it a more mainstream unit is interesting direction though.
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On November 07 2007 08:58 Konni wrote:
you could counter nearly any current zerg unit (bw) with these new ghosts alone
although they're quite expensive
select 1 (30 ghosts)
s (snipe) click
s click
s click
s click
s click
s click
..
zerg army dead
Hey, get with the new game. There is a autocast.
Observer is screwed, most likely its light armor.
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I think the new ghost currently is pretty good, although the damage might be a bit high, we don't know anything about how it plays, but I would say the hp is a bit too high. I mean, a tank can't one shot it anymore. It should remain at the low 45 hp because of cloak. And if the range is kept at 10, then there should be no reason for a ghost to get shot at, so 45 hp sounds good to me. But a range of 10 is a bit much, considering that the yamato gun had about 10 range too, and a tower only has 7 range. So maybe lower the large range a bit, and possibly lower the damage bonuses a bit for snipe, and I think it would be better balanced. Note that this is assumption is based on my current knowledge of SCII, and it probably not going to be accurate once more information is released. And I think that the new ghost would definitely change my use of it. I would probably build a few to snipe down spellcasters and such, although I may not use EMP very much due to the 100 energy cost, and the ghost requiring energy for snipe as well as cloak.
And to AlabasterFilth, how will sensor towers be able to deny expos? They are revealed to all players, and can probably be destroyed very easily if not defended properly. And that would mean defending all expos against attacks, which would be very costly, and if you were to do that you might as well expand into every expansion area.
As for ghosts winning the game, have you ever considered that you can't just walk your ghosts into their base, and chances are that they will have detection by mid game? And by the time you get cloak they will definitely have detection? It's like saying that with the protoss able to warp DT's into a player's base via phase prism they instantly win no matter what. Heck, the protoss players could just drop DT's, then proceed to warp in stalkers or something like that. Double instant victory! not.
And drop pods will not be able to deny expos very well. If you get one probe shot down as it's trying to expand, chances are that you would send an escort the next time. 6 zealots can kill 6 marines easily. And if multiple ghosts were to drop a drop pod over my worker, I would probably bring stalkers or DT's to escort my worker.
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On November 07 2007 14:51 TheShizno wrote:
As for ghosts winning the game, have you ever considered that you can't just walk your ghosts into their base, and chances are that they will have detection by mid game? And by the time you get cloak they will definitely have detection? It's like saying that with the protoss able to warp DT's into a player's base via phase prism they instantly win no matter what. Heck, the protoss players could just drop DT's, then proceed to warp in stalkers or something like that. Double instant victory! not.
The difference though is that the ghost got the second longest range in the game while the DT is melee, and id bet on that they get atleast 3 dmg per up so they 2 shot workers with 2 ups wich would make them extremely dangerous to mineral lines.
And if they preserved the old cooldowns this new ghost would beat a zealot even if the zealot started next to it and it didnt use snipe, with snipe it can ~beat 2 zealots starting next to it or easily beat 2 zealots coming from range. They would totally make zealots and templars useless for the toss player wich isn't fine.
So, even if this ghost had no other abilities than snipe it would still be built for its insane range and damage vs small units. Then you realise that its a normal combat units with nuke, imagine if marines could nuke in sc1 and nukes were built from the engineering bay and the rine were cloaked while nuking, and then realise that this unit got emp so you can emp a nexus and nuke it with the same unit.
But anyway, i think that Blizzard intentionally overbuffed it to see what effects it got and to ignite some discussion wich were clearly absent in the earlier topics. I mean, they had this blizzcon ghost, and then just buffed it with 100% more damage, 50% more health, 50% more range and added emp to their ability pool, thats a bit drastic usually for Blizzard.
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Yes, the SC2 ghost even before this change was probably a bit lackluster, however it still were an improvement over the old ghost.
The thing now is that they put way way to much on the same unit without increasing its cost at all. I dont say that its zomg imba, but that it counters to much to be an asset to the game now and instead would destroy other typical parts of sc gameplay.
Edit: Read that and i dont think that he meant that we should buff the ghost to have tank range, 1 shot workers and high enough health to be considered a combat unit at the same time as not only keeping all his utility but also adding to it by giving him emp.
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we dont know enough about zerg yet... you guys are assuming your using these ghosts vs an sc1 zerg army... assuming they still shoot slow, think about how easy banelings would smash these guys... Use some common sense guys.
But on the other hand, its silly for blizzard to give us a unit and tell us if its okay when we havnt a clue as to what zerg has in their arsenal for sc2.. How are we suppose to judge?
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On November 07 2007 16:44 Ftrunkz wrote:
we dont know enough about zerg yet...
Zerg wont affect TVP balance though wich is what most with a decent mindset is talking about. However it isnt hard to imagine that they will be OP vs zerg also due to it packing so much for its cost.
Edit: Also remember that phoenixes are light, so they get ubercountered by the ghost. Same with archons esp with emp. So the ghost is a hard counter to zealots, high/dark templars, archons, phoenixes and the stasis orb, thats like half of the toss units and against the other half they are still acting as a strong support with their abilities and such.
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Blizz should've been more concrete about that ghosts start with snipe only, and can get the other abilities only after upgrading at a higher point in the tech tree.
And people seriously... cut it out with the retarded theorycrafting, they even put 3 specific question to answer, but NOBODY answered them and most preferred to post some made up bullshit about ghosts being overpowered in a game they have never played and barely know anything about.
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They're ok for their cost tbh >.< 1000 minerals / 1000 ghost = 10 ghost + research + wait time for energy to recharge etc.
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Improve speed decrease hit points. The ghosts in sc1 and the demo were too damn slow....
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* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
More importantly, does the SCII Ghost like me? 
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Not in the least bit. My strategy is to expand and prevent my opponent from doing so, preferably killing them somewhere along the line. Nothing, short of thermonuclear ICBMs, can change that.
Now, will the new Ghost change my build orders and tactics? Yes, definetly. I can see myself going into mid-game m&m with Ghost support against Protoss. This forces my opponent to tech to Colossi, keeping me in control.
Drop Pods and Nukes are a world unto their own, but neither will win the game for me. Well, maybe continious Drop Pod reinforcements inside the enemy base will...
Harrassing workers with Ghosts alone seems viable, but the Ghost is too slow and expensive for my liking. Drop Pods it is.
Ghosts will be absolutely critical against Zerg. With Snipe, muta harass and Ultralisks won't be half as scary.
Finally, mass-Ghosts, as others have suggested, is out of the question. Too big a commitment, too easy to counter.  BoxeR could make it work, I guess...
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EPT
