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On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon.
Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units)
Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
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On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
My mistake, zeals are small hence get the damage bonus. My apologies.
Phoenixes though I'm skeptical about. I'm unaware of them releasing that they were considered small and I don't remember anyone from Blizzcon saying that. I figured they would be medium like the sairs they were designed to replace. If they are indeed small then that may be a problem and I again apologize for the mistake. If you have a link to this, it would be appreciated.
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On November 08 2007 05:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:52 Phyre wrote:
Zealots are medium as far as we know so I don't think Ghosts will be pew pewing any Zealots to death with their measly 5 damage. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion they can kill phoenixes. Snipe doesn't hurt them, no lockdown, 5 damage. Explain?
Wtf, zealots have always been small even in starcraft and if you looked at Blizzcon pics they are still small. Phoenixes were also small at blizzcon. Now since zealots are small, and phoenixes are small Ghosts deals 35 damage to them wich means they die extremely fast, and a ghost sniping a zealot means it has 10 health left so it 2 shots it and considering the ghosts extreme range id say that the ghost is a hard counter to those(In addition to all other small units) Learn facts before posting such a useless flame please.
Then don't mass phoenixes or zealots. Did you know vults and spidermines also kill zealots very fast? 20 concussive damage every hit at "fast" attack speed! 100 explosive splash damage mines! To top it off, vults also only cost 75 minerals/0 gas. OMG imba!
Only concern would be mutas dying too fast, but we have no idea how the rest of zerg is like. Mutas could serve a completely different role in the matchup.
Lesson of the day, stop theory crafting and just answer Blizzard's questions.
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By the way, just created a little test map giving the ghost the SC2 stats and it kills a zeal at point blank with 35/100 hp to spare. Starting at max range, the ghost gets down to 68/100 hp. That is with range 7, I forget how to edit the range in map editor.
I like the idea of a sniper actually doing damage (unlike SC1) but as has been stated 100 hp is a lot. May or may not be balanced out by cost but I would agree the hp should be dropped for both balance and thematic purposes.
Edit: Forgot there are questions to answer.
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
- Seems a bit OP in a pure theorycraft world using SC1 rules and what we know of SC2 as a basis. I like it's move to tier 1.5 so it sees use and I like it doing a bit more damage. However the hp buff is over the top I believe. Especially paired with medics. The range buff seems a bit too much, but that I'm more on the fence about. I don't know enough about the other skills, where in the tech tree they are, costs, and use to make to many guesses about those.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
- Probably.
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
- TvT: I don't see most of the ghost's skills being used much in TvT except for the nuke since I've heard it was moved down the tech tree. If TvT comes down to lots of tank stalemates then nukes will be an excellent defense cracker.
- TvZ: Don't know much about Zerg yet so assumptions would be based on SC1 Zerg. I don't see drop pods replacing drop ship raids as getting a drop ship into a zerg base seems like it would be easier than sneaking in a ghost. Snipe would be nice for taking out defilers if they are still in the game even though Defilers are medium. Assuming snipe is treated like a spell and assuming dark swarm is still there then a few snipes to get rid of a defiler could be the alternative to irradiate.
- TvP: Depends when the upgrades are available. EMP's most obvious use seems to be an anti-archon ability. Also something for razing Nexii faster. Snipe against HTs seems like a good reason to have a ghost or two in your army mix.
* Additional Feedback you would like to give
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On November 07 2007 05:53 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote + Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked Rofl, 10 range, 35 damage vs small!! Wee, 1 shot zerglings at tank range! 1 shot muta for 25 energy! If you have many you should even be able to counter heavy zerg units since snipe is so cheap and still deals 50 damage! Not to mention that they counter all toss as support with Emp, they counter all casters with emp, they counter Dt's and HT's easily with snipe. I think they went a bit overboard here... Now you wont do a mnm, you will do a gnm, with some rine support.
you're oblivious to the fact that Snipe requires a few seconds to 'load', until the actual fire + that it is very probable that snipe has some sort of cooldown
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On November 08 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 05:53 Klockan3 wrote: Mineral Cost: 100
Vespene Gas Cost: 100
Hit Points: 100
Max Energy: 200 (Starts with 50)
Armor: Light
Weapon Damage: 5 (+30 vs Light)
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: Normal
Ability Costs:
Snipe: 25 Energy (Does 50 damage vs. Biological unit + 100 vs. Light Armor and can be used while cloaked)
EMP: 100 Energy (Depletes energy and shields of enemy units within the area of effect)
Cloak: 25 Energy (initial) and 1 Energy/Second while Cloaked Rofl, 10 range, 35 damage vs small!! Wee, 1 shot zerglings at tank range! 1 shot muta for 25 energy! If you have many you should even be able to counter heavy zerg units since snipe is so cheap and still deals 50 damage! Not to mention that they counter all toss as support with Emp, they counter all casters with emp, they counter Dt's and HT's easily with snipe. I think they went a bit overboard here... Now you wont do a mnm, you will do a gnm, with some rine support. you're oblivious to the fact that Snipe requires a few seconds to 'load', until the actual fire + that it is very probable that snipe has some sort of cooldown
gnm also won't be really good due to cost issues and ghosts sucking damage wise against anything not small.
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I read through several replies... some people saying things I have said before and agree with still. As a Terran, yeah the Ghost would be "fun" now... I always liked Ghosts despite their difficulty in application in a serious game. But after a few days I think it'd prove overpowered and limiting though from the receiving end. This is considering the other races play something like they do now. Nothing is certain without playing, but if it's fairly easy to build ghosts....
My main beef is EMP and long range worker killing. They are countering units like the high templar so well, you'll never build high templar/archons/defilers/mutas if the Terran has a few ghosts. Too limiting in my opinion as those are some of the most fun units. But I would like to comment on some of these points in Phyre's post.
Damage (with snipe) like a DT is a big deal b/c of the range of a ghost. Static defense won't be stopping him like it would a DT. Think of the annoyance factor of Bisu's DTs in your worker line but from range 10... killing and not being alerted... and you can't even defend with a couple of sunkens and overlords. You'll have to have about 4 sunkens and 4 overlords to cover your base b/c of the range... completely impossible to do (in BW terms) unless sunkens are free now.
Coutering observers from 10 away is too good. Observers are supposed to counter the ghost, remember?
The Ghost probably has too many HP, yeah.
Bonus damage. I'm mostly worried about snipe. In other words, do over 100 dmg to all workers so they will one hit kill workers with each snipe. Just sounds too good on a unit with that much utility as opposed to say a high templar who uses mana for AOE and then is out of attacks. Even without snipe, one EMP and then regular attacks will kill probes in one shot. I wouldnt be surprised if with one or two weapon upgrades they do +5 or +6 damage and kill probes/drones one shot.
On November 07 2007 09:43 Phyre wrote:
Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
Ghost is cloaked
- It's upgradeable, you don't know how late in the tech tree cloak will become available. DT's have it without upgrades and it's on permanently.
Near the same damage as DTs?
- Yeah, only against Light Armored units. If we are correct in interpreting Light Armor as SC1's small units then this really isn't a problem. They aren't any more dangerous to your mineral line than Vults are in SC1 and the only light armored units that would now really fear ghosts are DT's and HT's. Terran infantry is still at least 2 shots to kill. They do a whopping 5 damage to everything else. 5 is hardly the DT's 40 damage to everything.
Range 10
- Again, at a whopping 5 damage a shot they aren't exactly threatening your sunk line anytime soon. Or any other static defenses for that matter.
Hard counter to observers
- Since when have Obs been hard to kill if you detected them before? If they retain their 60 hp from SC1, it still takes 2 shots to kill an ob.
@Jyvblamo: How do Ghosts have more hp than any biological unit? Are you not taking into account shields? Counting shields, the only P unit the Ghost has more hp than is the HT.
@XCetron: I doubt their bonus damage is applied twice. It's probably 5+30=35 damage done total to a probe and then it would be taken care of in the same way SC1 handled shields. The probe would be left with 5 hp and it's shields would start regening. So still 2 shot kills on probes, like Vults did.
I agree that the ghost now has ALOT of abilities but it's hardly a "mass this and win" button. The only thing that really scares me in terms of balance is if the Muta still counts as a small unit (light armored) then Snipe is a 1 shot kill. Perhaps in the absence of Irradiate Terrans will require a hard counter to Mutas but Ghosts having this ability at tier 1.5 might be too much of a counter. The HP does seem high as well.
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By the way, Karune has posted some more interesting statistics about the ghost:
On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
5 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
Ghosts seem to be a counter to basic units even without using snipe. Although I like that snipe doesn't 1-hit zealots.
Ghosts will probably kill workers in 2 hits. Now, they also outrange most static defense. Superior worker harass? I think so 
EDIT: Karune made a mistake. It actually takes 5 shots to kill a zealot from a ghost.
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On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
3 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
I really really hate this. This seems to me that they are taking the idea of hard counters way too far. A lot of the charm about SC was that even if you are countered, your units can still be effective if used correctly and with micro. Look at the vulture-dragoon, muta - archon, marine - lurker relationships. This seem to slam the door shut on all those micro possibilities. It will be completely like Age of Empires where you can have ridiculous cost effectiveness with counter units, and battles revolved around dodging counter units of the enemy and utilizing your own. It simply isn't SC.
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On November 08 2007 07:07 AlabasterFilth wrote:By the way, Karune has posted some more interesting statistics about the ghost: Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
3 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units. Ghosts seem to be a counter to basic units even without using snipe. Although I like that snipe doesn't 1-hit zealots. Ghosts will probably kill workers in 2 hits. Now, they also outrange most static defense. Superior worker harass? I think so
3 shot kill on a zeal? Does this mean the zeal has 105 hp now? 35*3 = 105...
The idea of this strong of a hard counter doesn't really appeal to me. Doesn't this take away from the role of the firebat too? I suppose cost might help balance it out but shouldn't we try to avoid too much role overlap? Perhaps if they dropped the hp a bit it wouldn't be so bad.
I think I'll be walking over to the "ghost is looking more imba" camp now...
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On November 07 2007 07:56 Karune wrote:
The Ghost is quite a deadly unit in the hands of a skilled player. To put into perspective, in the current build:
1 Ghost standard rifle shot kills a Zergling.
2 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Marine/Medic.
5 Ghost standard rifle shots kills a Zealot.
1 Snipe for 25 energy will take a Zealot down to 1 hit point.
Ghosts (range 10)can also shoot at most defenses without being fired back, such as a Protoss Phase Cannon (range 7).
Now, when you consider having more than one Ghost in a group, and focus fire, you can easily pick off key Light Armored units, with a single fire.
On the other hand though, Ghosts do virtually no damage (5) to anything that is NOT light armor, such as buildings, tanks, and more armored units.
To put this into perspective:
2 vult shots kills a zergling
2 vult shots kills a marine/probe/drone
8 vult shots kills a zealot
Vults have faster attack and move speed than ghosts (but less range). Vults cost 75 min/0 gas (expendable), while ghost costs 100 min/100 gas (costly). Mines also are pretty good all around against a whole bunch of other ground units.
As for firing on static D, Siege tanks and Thors would be a far greater threat than a ghost (aside from nuking).
Snipe does seem a bit overpowered currently though, but I guess it'll depend on exactly how long the cooldown for the attack is and the damage can always be toned down if necessary.
* Do you like the new StarCraft II Ghost?
So far, I like the concept of the ghost. Balance can be tweaked later.
* Will the new Ghost change your strategy?
Yes, I might actually make use of them now, even when my name is not Boxer.
* How would you utilize the Ghost?
Too early to tell. Release Zerg race first then we can talk.
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Ghosts shouldn't have too much more hp than an average marine.
Snipe is one ability that I really like the ghost to have. I don't like droppods though. You should just build your own dropship with marines please.
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I think the changes are headed in the right direction.
Think of the ghost more as a DT that is not permanently cloaked, with added abilities to make up for this handicap.
The ghost's role is now being modelled after the DT's role - to penetrate deep into enemy territory and then do damage. That's probably why it's now tier 1.5, and probably the reason for the drop pod and nuclear strike. You might be able to have it lounge around and snipe templars as they come out, thus delaying the protoss's push.
Later in the game, ghosts will probably become less useful in this role, unless you get lucky with a drop pod and a nuclear strike (the way DTs don't work quite so well later in the game because scans and turrets are already in play). That's when the ghost is switched to a supporting role ala the Science Vessel with its EMP.
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Am I the only one who thinks this topic is kind of pointless? None of us know the specifics of the different unit stats in the game and even all of that is up for grabs.
At best all we can do is comment on some basic role concepts. In that sense, I'm skeptical about drop pods but the rest sounds potentially interesting, depending upon how Blizzard is balancing all of the damage in the game. In fact, it's those bigger balance issues that I care more about, but I don't see Blizzard asking for advice in that area and others. If you ask me that's probably where they need the most help. :\
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I basically don't like cloaked killercasters in SC. Lockdown was ok, because it can't effect the outcome of an engagement that easy, but EMP + Cloak? Imagine Cloak + Psi Storm... lol, I wouldn't even play that, because it's too gay of a combo. You can make that with the Heroes in TFT, but don't turn Starcraft into Warcraft, PLEASE!
Simply the Ghosts stats seem like a really good counter against Z early on and as P player I'm just hoping this can't be, sniping cloaked units could proove pretty hard when there are massive armies clashing. I think they are a bit overpowered... but lets just see.
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This is gonna take forever to make, Blizzard are asking us about the unit concept and we scream about balance rofl. If it had 12 abilities and they all sucked would you guys be happy?
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They NEED jetpacks and then and only then they will be balanced.
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On November 08 2007 21:31 lololol wrote:
They NEED jetpacks and then and only then they will be balanced.
Heheh... actually, giving Ghosts jetpacks would give the Terran some incentive to use them for worker harrass, as opposed to Dropships. However, besides looking lame (I'd rather see Ghosts climbing walls oh-so slowly) every Ghost is already a hero-ranked, well, hero. Less firepower, more versatility I say.
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If blizzard was interested in feedback on balance they would add a question about it.
Thats why the questions asked by them have nothing to do with balance issues. Because people who havent played cant have a spherical view about balance. Far from it.
However the questions asked cannot be answered seriously too without playing it. I mean , well yeah i like it. I will use it if it proves to be a viable powerfull option that will help me win. The way that i ll use it can be discovered after i have played sc2.
Imagine they had asked the same questions before sc1. Will you use the ghost that is cloacked and launches nukes? Sure why not
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Hungary11291 Posts
On November 08 2007 22:06 Titanidis wrote:
If blizzard was interested in feedback on balance they would add a question about it.
Tell me how the formulations: * Will the new Ghost change your strategy? and * How would you utilize the Ghost? are not strongly interwoven with balancing issues. A unit which is too weak won't change my strategy and I will not use it. An overpowered unit might lead me to including it into every strategical framework I conjecture and make me use it at any possible occasion. So while the question might not be ALL about balance, balance is a crucial part of it.
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