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MJG
United Kingdom1051 Posts
On January 24 2024 01:03 Mizenhauer wrote: herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material. The best (probably) current Protoss hasn't won enough to be top 15 material. Definitely tracks.  | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On January 24 2024 01:36 MJG wrote: The best (probably) current Protoss hasn't won enough to be top 15 material. Definitely tracks. Turns out its a GOAT poll not a top 10 toss poll. Crazy | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15953 Posts
On January 24 2024 01:03 Mizenhauer wrote: herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material. Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1859 Posts
On January 24 2024 02:18 Charoisaur wrote: Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him. The op names six people. I had TY, Rain and sOs ahead of him. That makes nine. Then you have Stats, Dark, Nestea, Reynor and soO, which brings the total of players above him to 14. What you make of herO compared to the likes of Classic, Trap, Cure, MC and a couple others is up to you, but that could put him 19 or lower If you disagree with my assement that's fine, but I think there's a reasonable argument that herO belongs there. PS: The research for all of this started about a year and herO actually had a lot upward mobility after winning Code S and Atlanta back to back (winning that is way more impressive than a 4 round korean weekender, imo), but he didn't live up to that in 2023. Had he added a couple of really good finishes to his resume in 2023 he could be in this list. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15953 Posts
On January 24 2024 02:43 Mizenhauer wrote: The op names six people. I had TY, Rain and sOs ahead of him. That makes nine. Then you have Stats, Dark, Nestea, Reynor and soO, which brings the total of players above him to 14. What you make of herO compared to the likes of Classic, Trap, Cure, MC and a couple others is up to you, but that could put him 19 or lower If you disagree with my assement that's fine, but I think there's a reasonable argument that herO belongs there. PS: The research for all of this started about a year and herO actually had a lot upward mobility after winning Code S and Atlanta back to back (winning that is way more impressive than a 4 round korean weekender, imo), but he didn't live up to that in 2023. Had he added a couple of really good finishes to his resume in 2023 he could be in this list. Yeah I disagree. I'm not looking that much at winrates but in terms of tournament wins / high placements he definitely should be above Rain. Rain has an OSL, a GSL, Hot6ix Cup, a HSC and WCS Asia. herO has an SSL, a GSL, GSL Super tournament, Kespa Cup, DH Atlanta and 3 IEM. So in terms of wins herO is objectively better. Adding 2nd places herO also made it to a world championship finals, a Kespa Cup, GSL Super tournament and IEM Shanghai while Rain has two 2nd places (IEM San Jose and WCS Korea). He also has way more 3/4rd places than Rain. It seems you have different criteria than just counting the top tournament results, but in terms of tournament results there's no way herO is below Rain. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1859 Posts
On January 24 2024 03:07 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah I disagree. I'm not looking that much at winrates but in terms of tournament wins / high placements he definitely should be above Rain. Rain has an OSL, a GSL, Hot6ix Cup, a HSC and WCS Asia. herO has an SSL, a GSL, GSL Super tournament, Kespa Cup, DH Atlanta and 3 IEM. So in terms of wins herO is objectively better. Adding 2nd places herO also made it to a world championship finals, a Kespa Cup, GSL Super tournament and IEM Shanghai while Rain has two 2nd places (IEM San Jose and WCS Korea). He also has way more 3/4rd places than Rain. It seems you have different criteria than just counting the top tournament results, but in terms of tournament results there's no way herO is below Rain. So you give Rain no credit for winning five events in 43 months, whereas herO has won eight in his 12 years (or 144 months playing StarCraft (this includes his time serving in the military fyi)? What really dings herO (assuming you put importance on this whole line of thought) is, despite having a nearly 3x longer career, herO still doesn't have as many KIL final appearances, as Rain leads 3 vs 2. I'm not saying that's the winning argument, but it has to factor in at some point. When it comes to ranking players longevity is a double edged sword. You have to find a way to assign value to a long career in which a player gradually compiled a lot of results with some fallow periods compared as well as someone who had a shorter career, but won/did things at a far greater clip and was a more consistent championship quality player. I think the "is longevity good or bad?" argument is one of the most difficult things to determine when making a list like this. As such, it plays a huge role in where everyone ends up and leads to a lot of disagreements. | ||
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JJH777
United States4407 Posts
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15953 Posts
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes. It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career. Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way. There's no guarantee at all that someone like Rain would've continued winning if he kept playing. Other greats like sOs, Zest, Classic, soO also fell off compared to the HotS era. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
I can see putting Rain above him for those reasons. He was a better player, especially in Korea. Outside of the odd season (late 2015 and 2017) herO was never that dominant, and never a favourite to win tournaments. Unlike everyone else in the top 10. Even now, as the best protoss in the world, he's often lackluster to watch (says more about protoss as a whole). That being said, herO stuck around for 3x as long, and had a resurgence good enough to bag championships in 2017 and 2022. Is 3 championships more by playing an extra 8 years worthy of such greatness ? I think it can go either way, it depends how much you value staying around for long enough to have few more great runs. Dominance vs longevity. Personally I'd rank Rain higher as he was a defining factor for protoss as a race, and while herOs longevity is impressive, it's not unheard of. Nether would be in my top 10 btw | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1859 Posts
On January 24 2024 07:12 Charoisaur wrote: Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way. There's no guarantee at all that someone like Rain would've continued winning if he kept playing. Other greats like sOs, Zest, Classic, soO also fell off compared to the HotS era. I'm not extrapolating and projecting what Rain's career might have been. Fictional events have no bearing on reality. Our opinions on this clearly differs, but I can understand why you would have herO higher than Rain. I hope you can do the same with why I have Rain over herO. And, just to be clear, there is no universal rule that short is better than long or more trophies is better than less. This is all on a case by case basis. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 24 2024 07:12 Charoisaur wrote: Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way. Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4. It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years. No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25237 Posts
On January 24 2024 08:39 Fango wrote: Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4. It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years. No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player. It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players. Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that! I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited. Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times. It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar. I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that. I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On January 24 2024 09:58 WombaT wrote: It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players. Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that! I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited. Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times. It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar. I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that. I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc. Kind of interesting how much you would weigh someone ever clearly being #1 at some point in time. It seems like a very important factor, almost impossible to imagine a top 10 player who wasn't, but the obvious counterpoint is soO. Even when he won Kespa cup and especially IEM Katowice, I don't think anyone would have still picked him as the favorite to win a tournament held the next day. I mean he barely made it out of group stages at Katowice. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25237 Posts
On January 24 2024 10:55 Pandain wrote: Kind of interesting how much you would weigh someone ever clearly being #1 at some point in time. It seems like a very important factor, almost impossible to imagine a top 10 player who wasn't, but the obvious counterpoint is soO. Even when he won Kespa cup and especially IEM Katowice, I don't think anyone would have still picked him as the favorite to win a tournament held the next day. I mean he barely made it out of group stages at Katowice. Yeah it’s tricky, if I look at say Andy Murray in tennis, via quite a few metrics he’s in or around top 10 all time. But despite that, despite a period at number 1 in the rankings he was never really the outright best player like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic had long stints being. Despite being a clear fourth best of that quartet, there’s definitely still a case that he’d place above others who may have held that best in the world mantle at some stage. It’s a tricky one! I mean it’s as much subjective and about aura as anything else. I don’t think there have been many players in SC2’s history who’ve ever gapped the competition to be the best player as opposed to one of a bunch of S tier players, and even those who have have rarely actually swept the competition to get a trophy haul to match. I’ll probably miss someone out from my already small list, but curious as to what others think. Mvp was definitely a cut above for a while, plus I feel he really mapped out the framework for Terran play, when much of this list will be players iterating on a game with more meta meat on its bones. Rain as I mentioned I think had a short period the argument could be made. He Who Must Not Be NamedTM I think had a stint with that status, Innovation on his initial peak, and albeit there’s some overlap I think Maru and Serral have kind of shared the mantle for quite a few years now at various points. Maybe more of a top 2 who’ve rarely had periods where they’re gapping each other, but I think they’re a cut above, or have been at many times. I did have a brief hiatus and as I say, it’s as much an aura thing as something borne out by stats, so others may have emitted such a vibe when I wasn’t looking. But it’s that feeling of regardless of who’s on the table facing them, thinking they’re probably going to win, and basically any loss feels an upset. That ‘holy shit this bloke just stomped another top 4 player easily’ post match kind of feel. I don’t think there’s actually been too many throughout the years all told | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15953 Posts
On January 24 2024 09:58 WombaT wrote: It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players. Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that! I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited. Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times. It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar. I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that. I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc. I disagree that Maru's longevity is "fortuitous". He was able to have such a long career because he entered the pro scene at age 13(!). That's not luck, that's his reward for being competitive at such a young age. If it was that easy everyone would have entered the pro scene at age 13. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25237 Posts
On January 24 2024 16:37 Charoisaur wrote: I disagree that Maru's longevity is "fortuitous". He was able to have such a long career because he entered the pro scene at age 13(!). That's not luck, that's his reward for being competitive at such a young age. If it was that easy everyone would have entered the pro scene at age 13. As I said it’s no knock on Maru, but he’s almost uniquely placed. Guys like Serral, Clem and Reynor were somewhat restricted in their young years due to ESL/German law (and tbh it’s not something I disagree with) and had to wait until the ancient age of 16 to play their regionals. Also aside from learning his trade and being extremely young, which is a testament to his talent it did take Maru a while to actually do much of real note. Equally he eventually delivered on his undoubtedly ability so it’s largely immaterial, contrast with a Creator who burst into the scene as a 14/15 year old and then had one of the most frustrating careers of any player I can think of. I can’t overstate how this is not a slight on Maru, more an acknowledgement of the quirks of the scene and other good fortune. Does Maru get picked up onto a pro team at 13 if Kespa had been in SC2 from the start? He’s too talented not to have got picked up, even if it’s a few years later. Has he thus far avoided military service just because of his age profile? Of Koreans of a similar age profile and vaguely equivalent talent, who started as SC2 players Taeja’s wrists exploded and Life self-sabotaged There’s just so many outside factors to longevity in a game that’s seen so many shifts that outside of otherwise equivalent cases I tend not to weigh it as highly as others is all | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1051 Posts
On January 24 2024 01:57 Cricketer12 wrote: Turns out its a GOAT poll not a top 10 toss poll. Crazy It was a playful knock on the struggles Protoss has had winning premier tournaments in the recent past. I wasn't being serious. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2225 Posts
On another note, great writeup, I love reading these!! thank you for the list Edit: maybe the power of hindsight was too strong... MC wasn't as dominant as I remembered... I'd still have placed him at #10 but alas, fair enough, herO could also be argued to have a right to that spot.... Guess I'm just old and remember the OG GOATS too vividly haha | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10336 Posts
On January 21 2024 17:27 samAel1 wrote: Don’t forget about this masterpiece, Maru abusing reactor-cyclone and $O$ answered THIS BTW: Great articles, thank you <3 Holy shit thanks for sharing that, that was such dominating and clean play, really cool games... sOs is my favorite player, it's kinda crazy I wasn't really paying attention to SC2 around 2014-2018 and missed much of his career. | ||
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samAel1
Poland26 Posts
On January 27 2024 15:47 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Holy shit thanks for sharing that, that was such dominating and clean play, really cool games... sOs is my favorite player, it's kinda crazy I wasn't really paying attention to SC2 around 2014-2018 and missed much of his career. Watching this live was ultimate Starcraft II experience! | ||
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