• First 3-time world champion • Top five all-time Proleague win total • Did we say 3-time world champion?
Notable tournament finishes
2013 WCS Season 1 Finals: 2nd place
2013 WCS Global Finals: 1st place
2013 Red Bull Battlegrounds New York: 2nd place
2014 IEM World Championship: 1st place
2014 Hot6ix Cup: 1st place
2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena: 1st place
2015 WCS Global Finals: 1st place
2016 Code S Season 2: 2nd place
2017 Code S Season 3: 2nd place
2018 IEM PyeongChang: 2nd place
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: 2nd place
sOs is an anomaly among the storied champions that grace this list. Considering that long-term consistency is a common trait in this top ten, sOs' career was more of a roller coaster ride in comparison. However, his ability to peak during the very biggest events is almost unmatched in StarCraft II history, and for the first nine years of the game, he was the only player to have three world championships to his name.
Even though sOs did not display the same day-to-day dominance as his peers, he still accumulated a respectable number of high tournament finishes in non-world championship events during his lengthy career. Additionally, he was an incredible workhorse during the KeSPA Proleague era, and has a case to be called the greatest Proleague player ever based on sheer number of games won.
Beyond the resume, sOs was an unforgettable player due to his playstyle. He was sui generis among top-tier players in how he possessed both unmatched strengths and glaring deficiencies. His overall mechanics were lacking compared to the very best players of the time, and he was not a particularly fast player in terms of multitasking or micro. He was also prone to committing calamitous errors from time to time, and he lost to inferior foes more often than you'd want from one of the greatest of all time.
However, more than any player ever, sOs was able to out-think and out-strategize his opponents in important games. Whether it was inventing entirely new build orders that his opponents had never seen, or simply knowing where a series of 'regular' cheeses were best deployed within a series, sOs could knock any opponent off balance. At his best, sOs would take complete control of the game by abruptly diverging from the standard meta—reducing it into a chaotic environment where outcomes are unpredictable and improvisation is crucial. If anyone ever demonstrated that the "strategy" portion of RTS mattered just as much as the "real-time," it was sOs.
Protoss fans in 2024 immediately broke down in tears upon seeing this.
Career Overview: $O$
sOs entered StarCraft II alongside the rest of KeSPA in 2012, and became one of the players who was quick to adapt to the new game. While he lagged slightly behind the Wings of Liberty vanguard of Rain, INnoVation, and Soulkey, he reached the top four of the first Heart of the Swarm Code S Season in early 2013. He did so in a changing-of-the-guard run, mostly beating non-KeSPA players including MarineKing, Bomber, TaeJa, and Losira. While he fell to eventual champion Soulkey in a seven game semifinal, the Woongjin Stars Protoss had put himself on the map as an innovator and star in the making.
sOs managed to one up his Round of 4 appearance at the WCS Season 1 Finals less than a month later. He avenged his previous loss against Soulkey, this time winning their semifinal match by a 3-2 score. The finals didn't go nearly as well—he was swept by an INnoVation who was in the midst of the first of many stretches as the best player in the world. However, the high finish did help sOs earn enough WCS points to earn a ticket to the WCS Global Finals in November.
When autumn came around, sOs had become one of the underdogs with just 2% of TL.net readers picking him to win in a community poll (granted, such polls were heavily influenced by fandom). He had cooled down in the second half of 2013, and was seen as a quirky player with too many flaws to go the distance. Much of the focus was on fan-favorites such as Jaedong and NaNiwa, or players in fantastic form such as Dear .
Day one of the 16-player Global Finals turned out to be full of upsets, with Duckdeok taking out INnoVation in the first round while Jaedong defied the odds to defeat the red-hot Dear in the RO8. As for sOs, he quietly advanced through his side of the bracket, defeating Liquid`HerO (3-1) and Polt (3-1) in somewhat routine wins. Neither was considered a major title contender at the time, and those matches were expectedly relegated to the B-stream.
Headed into the second and final day, fan opinion hadn't changed too much on sOs. The TL.net poll on the eventual tournament champion now favored Jaedong heavily, while sOs came in last place with 15% of the vote. In the semifinals, sOs once again took care of business, scoring yet another 3-1 victory against Bomber. On the other side of the bracket, Jaedong continued what seemed to be his run of destiny by taking out Maru.
While it's hard to say who the grand finals objectively favored at the time, Jaedong was clearly winning the battle of popular support. The living legend of Brood War had endured a remarkable kong stretch during the 2013 season, finishing runner-up in four major tournaments. With all the pre-tournament favorites out of the way (and Dear dispatched by his own hand), it seemed like it was finally time for Jaedong to become the first ever double-champion of SC2 and Brood War.
But, unlike Dear, who played the best version of standard PvZ at the time, sOs brought an entirely different approach to PvZ. His plan was to get Jaedong out of his comfort zone, and he leaned into the reviled tactics of the Protoss arsenal: cannon-rushes, all-ins, and hidden bases. He played mind games with Jaedong, going for committed attacks even when scouted and changing tech at a moment’s notice to keep his foe perpetually behind. Jaedong simply could not make sense of his vexing opponent, and after five games, sOs collected the four GG's needed to sign off on his first world championship. It was the beginning of the legend of sOs, as he took home the biggest prize of the year through a combination of composure, cunning, and audacity.
At the time, TL.net's stuchiu wrote the following in an article: "sOs stands as the WCS 2013 champion, and has forced StarCraft 2 fans around to give him their respect.. The weeks ahead will be an important test for sOs, as he participates at two major tournaments at Red Bull Battle Grounds and DreamHack Winter. With good performances, that grudging respect may become support. With championships, support could become adoration."
Obviously, sOs did earn that adoration in the end, but he took a somewhat convoluted route. While he made it to the finals of Battle Grounds, it ended in an anti-climax as he lost 1-4 to PartinG. DreamHack went far worse, as he finished in the top 12 with a loss to Patience (as a result, sOs suffered the shame of being ranked merely 3rd in TL.net December 2013 Power Rank, despite being the reigning world champion).
Some believe that a hangover can be cured by drinking even more, and at least for sOs, that applied to his championship hangover. His cup of choice: the 2014 IEM World Championship. The notorious tournament featured a $100,000 winner-take-all prize, the subject of much controversy at the time. However, as cold and brutal as the format was, it didn't compare to the cruelty of sOs' play. He ripped through his bracket with wins over Oz (3-1), jjakji (3-0), and TaeJa (3-1), setting up a PvP finals against herO.
sOs was well-known for his trickery and subterfuge by this point, but herO didn't expect the depths of villainy that sOs was willing to sink to. sOs started with a double-nut punch out of the gates, taking the first two games with back-to-back proxy-Gateway all-ins INSIDE herO's main. To herO's credit, he preserved enough of his mental to get a map back with a Dark Templar rush in game three, but all the momentum was still on sOs' side. sOs proceeded to make the $100,000 read that herO would keep trying to play aggressively, and held off two consecutive all-ins to win his second world championship in five months.
It would take a few more years for IEM Katowice to accrue the prestige it has today, but it was already clear at the time that sOs had done something special. With GSL 1st place prizes having come down from their $100,000 peaks, BlizzCon and Katowice were the biggest paydays anyone had to play for since 2011. To take both purses forever immortalized sOs as the ultimate prize money hunter and big-tournament player.
An underrated part of sOs' career is that he had very good championship celebrations.
After reaching such impossible heights in Poland, the rest of 2014 was more of a mixed bag for sOs (a predictable pattern in hindsight). He continued to struggle to break into the deeper rounds of Code S, and didn't attain any notable results in the handful of international events he competed in. sOs paid a steep price for this lack of individual league success, as he missed the top 16 cutoff for BlizzCon 2014 at 18th place in total WCS points earned. On the positive side, he was excellent in Proleague for new team Jin Air, winning the award for most map wins that season. He also closed out the year on a high note, winning the 2014 Hot6ix Cup.
2015 was another year of counteracting highs and lows for sOs—at least up until November. His Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) results were unremarkable—if not flat out bad—save one Code S RO4 appearance in Season 1. However, he was great once more in Proleague, and ranked among the league leaders in wins as Jin Air finished second place overall. Also, he did much better in individual competitions played overseas, winning MSI Masters and placing top four at DreamHack Stockholm. Those last two results ended up being quite important, and they gave sOs enough points to return to BlizzCon for the 2015 WCS Global Finals.
Unsurprisingly, sOs' standing in the scene was very different from his first BlizzCon. This time, the TL.net champion poll had him solidly in second place with 18% of the vote, trailing only god-mode, 2015 INnoVation (25%). Even Aligulac.com gave sOs the second place nod, with his strong Proleague performances pushing him up the point rankings in spite of his humdrum Korean Individual League showings.
Such expectations proved to be rightly founded, as sOs blazed a path through the finals with wins over Parting (3-2), Rain (3-0), and Rogue (3-0). The other side of the bracket saw BlizzCon 2014 champion Life survive the melee, defeating Lilbow (3-0), INnoVation (3-1), and Classic (3-2), to set up a super-hyped grand finals between the two previous Global Champions.
Unlike his two previous world championship finals, this time sOs met an opponent who was very much his equal. Life wasn't just extremely skilled and composed—he shared sOs' talent for disrupting his opponents' rhythm with early aggression. The two exchanged blows evenly on the first six maps, with many games decided by the success of their opening gambits. Going to Iron Fortress for game seven, fans waited to see who would draw their sword first.
As it turned out, both players were looking to take the initiative, with sOs opening Forge-first against Life's fast Spawning Pool. Upon scouting, sOs realized he would have to change to a defensive stance, and he took his Nexus while preparing to parry whatever Life might send his way. Life, on the other hand, was fully committed, and went for a Ling-Bane all-in off of one base. Fitting for a match that had been so close up to that point, the game wasn't decided in the first clash of blades. Life's initial strike inflicted damage by destroying sOs' natural Nexus, but it was not quite enough to decide the game either way.
It was here that sOs' fantastic crisis management shined through, as he held off Life's follow-up attacks and slowly reestablished his natural. Knowing that his opponent was playing from a deficit after his all-in start, sOs played out his lead with extreme patience, only moving out with Stalker-Sentry when he knew his lead was unassailable. Indeed, Life didn't have the forces to resist the attack, and he surrendered the GG that made sOs the first (and only) player to ever win the WCS Global finals twice.
Despite having not made the finals of a Korean Individual League StarCraft II career, sOs had permanently carved his place in StarCraft II history. In the three and a half years in which he had played StarCraft II, sOs had somehow won three of the four world championship tournaments held during that period. For years, it put sOs on a transcendent plane that seemed unassailable, and much of Rogue's future legend was built on tying that mark of three world titles.
It's impolite to talk about this part of sOs' career.
sOs' career is a story of two halves, and the less glorious portion began after his remarkable achievement at BlizzCon 2015. Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline. He continued to be great in team competition, helping Jin Air win their first title in the final, 2016 season of Proleague. However, his Korean Individual League results continued to flag. Even as he attained career-best Code S runner-up finishes in both 2016 (1-4 vs ByuN) and 2017 (3-4 vs INnoVation), he failed to garner enough overall WCS points to qualify for the newly region-restricted WCS Global Finals in either year (8 out of 16 spots became reserved for WCS Circuit players).
Subsequent years followed a similar pattern, with sOs occasionally showing glimpses of his old brilliance amid a general decline. Certainly, some of those glimmers were bright indeed. Most memorable was when he met Maru in the 2018 WCS Global Finals, and made the 3x Code S champion forget how to play StarCraft II in perhaps the biggest upset of the entire year. Then, following his worst year of professional play ever in 2019, he waltzed into IEM Katowice 2020 as an Open Bracket player, and somehow earned a top eight finish while knocking out two title contenders in Stats and TY. However, eventually, even those types of performances also dried up, and sOs announced his retirement in September of 2021.
The Tools: So Evil, but so Good
When it comes to the players on this list (and even players in the #11-20 range), sOs is possibly the least mechanically gifted of them all. But for what he lacked in speed, sOs more than made up with his ability to take his opponents off their game. Between his mad scientist concoctions and run-of-the-mill Protoss devilry, he had an terrifying arsenal of builds that he knew exactly when and how to deploy. Of course, sOs' creative strategies could fail spectacularly on occasion, but three world championships tell us he was wildly successful on the whole. Also, the simple threat of such builds forced his opponents to play scared, and give up the edges that would typically let them roll over less mechanically sound players.
sOs was also a great in-game decision-maker, but in an unconventional way. Like GuMiho, another brilliant but mechanically-challenged player (relative to other top players), he knew that making games weird, initiating basetrades, and just being an all-around agent of chaos was a great way to drag top players down into the mud.
While mentality and intangibles are difficult to rate, it seems safe to say sOs was one of the very best players ever in these departments. He won his first two world championships surprisingly easily, picking up the pieces as his two finals opponents fell apart. Even during his decline, sOs was uniquely capable of striking fear into the hearts of his opponents, as seen in Maru's disastrous collapse against a fading sOs at BlizzCon 2018. And, while he was not always among the favorites to win Code S, he was frequently one of the least desirable opponents during group selections—however low the chance, no one wanted to be the player to get sOs'd.
The Numbers: Triple World Championships + All-time Great Proleague player
World championship-tierᵃ tournament winners 2012 to present
a: While there is no firm formula for determining a world championship-tier event, both prize money and strength of field are taken into consideration. b: WESG tournaments are assigned to the year the grand finals was actually played, not the official date on the tournament title (which is one year early). c: The 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2016 IEM world championships were of lesser scale compared to other iterations. d: Player was later banned for match-fixing in unrelated tournaments. ESL still recognizes YoDa as the 2013 winner; Blizzard stripped Life of his title.
Record in world championship-tierᵃ tournament finals
a: Included tournaments: WCS Global Finals 2013-2019, IEM Katowice 2014-2023 (except 2016), WESG 2016-2018, Gamers8 2020
sOs' mark of three world championships has been repeated constantly throughout this article, and their value is largely self-evident. Whether it's due to prize money, tournament format, or simply the prestige we've collectively placed upon these events over time, the centrality of world championships in StarCraft II history is one of the few things fans can agree upon.
Even though nearly a decade has passed since sOs' last victory at a world championship, it is impossible to think of such events without sOs coming immediately to mind. From 2015 to 2019 (before Rogue matched sOs' count of three titles), no one came close to sOs' reputation as a big-tournament player, as a player who might come in and win any event regardless of his current form. While it speaks volumes of Rogue that he was able to eventually equal sOs (and of anyone who might join the three world titles club in the future), it does not diminish the impact that sOs made by being the first player to accomplish this feat, and the fact that he held this distinction alone for over four years.
StarCraft II Proleague win-loss records (map score)ᵃᵇ
a: The 2011/12 season was excluded as it was played in a hybrid Brood War + SC2 format. b: Playoff statistics included. c: Classic's nine games as Terran (2-7) were excluded
A secondary, but still important part of sOs' resume is his excellence in Proleague. As mentioned in the introduction article, Proleague was at least as important as Korean Individual Leagues (Code S, OSL, SSL) from a practical point of view, as Proleague performance determined the steady salary players could command from teams.
When setting aside the 2011-2012 SC2/BW hybrid season, sOs ties herO as the player with the most individual map wins in the competition. While INnoVation and Maru recorded better win-percentages than sOs, both players competed in one less season due to their time on non-KeSPA teams. Other players may have had better singular seasons, but when considering aggregate wins and win-percentage over all four years, there's a case to be made that sOs had the greatest SC2 Proleague career ever (some may place a higher value on herO's heavier ace-match burden).
While a single player's influence is limited in the Proleague format, sOs' resume benefits from the fact that he was able to lend his talent to strong teams. He finished 2nd with the Woongjin Stars in 2012/13, second again with Jin Air in 2015, and then won the championship with Jin Air in 2016.
The PlacementsOs was a difficult player to position on this list, as his greatness was largely dependent on the valuation of a world championship. sOs did reach the Code S finals twice, but his overall Korean Individual League resume lags behind all of the Korean players chosen for the top ten.
TY, the player directly below sOs in the standings, vastly outperformed him domestically, winning two Code S championships, finishing runner-up twice, and generally showing extraordinary consistency. On top of that, TY won a pair of world championships, making the overall gap rather narrow.
In this case, it just came down to 3 > 2. sOs was the first player in StarCraft II history to win three World Championships, and, while Rogue joined him in that club four years later, no one has managed to do so since. While TY had some amazing single years in his career (2017, 2020), he never had a run of championships results like sOs did from 2013-2015. Winning more than half the World Championships held over a 24 month period (that just happened to overlap with the KeSPA era) made sOs an indelible part of StarCraft II history. What he did was unprecedented and never completely equalled (sOs won his three World Championships in a two year span while Rogue took nearly four). For that he gets the nod over TY and takes the number eight spot among the greatest to ever play StarCraft II.
The Games:
Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.
sOs vs herO: 2014 IEM Katowice - Grand Finals (March 16, 2014)
While I tried to pick games that represented a players' style over their most famous games played, it just so happens to be that a big part of sOs' style was "winning the biggest matches possible."
sOs opened the finals of the winner take all IEM Katowice in fitting fashion given the tournament format. With $100,000 and the title of IEM world champion on the line, sOs planted his first two gateways in herO’s main, furthering his reputation as a build order madman who was utterly unafraid of taking massive risks.
sOs vs herO: 2015 Code S Season 3 - Round of 16 (September 4, 2015)
(Timestamp - 0:17:30)
herO seemed to have this game on Expedition Lost well under control, getting Anion Pulse Crystals considerably earlier than sOs in a committed Phoenix war. However, sOs somehow pulled off a Jedi mind trick—you could almost see herO repeat the words "I WILL suicide my Phoenixes in a nonsensical attack."
No, it wasn't really 'good' game per se, but it was a solid example of how sOs could cause opponents to randomly self-destruct.
sOs vs Life: 2015 WCS Global Finals - Grand Finals (November 7, 2015)
(Timestamp - 1:34:40)
With everything on the line in game seven of the titanic showdown between the last two WCS World Champions, sOs put on a defensive clinic, somehow holding Life’s Ling-Bane all-in.
Watching it back, sOs' decisions might seem pretty obvious, and you might even point out a handful of mistakes. But given the huge stakes of the game—and how often we see players collapse in these scenarios—it was about as perfect a defense as one could hope for (the high ground Gateway was a particularly inspired decision). It wasn't just crazy builds and chaos magic that let sOs succeed—his nerves of steel also played an enormous part.
sOs vs INnoVation: 2017 Code S Season 3 - Grand Finals (September 16, 2017)
(Timestamp - 1:43:50)
This game could probably be described as a "macro cheese," but that's just insulting to the level of craziness sOs put on display. Starting with a fast gold base, he proceeded to mass expand with seemingly no regard for his safety, while also proxying half of his production for seemingly no reason at all.
You can't really say the strategy worked beautifully, but what mattered is that it did work in the end. And, that's what makes it vintage sOs.
Written by: Mizenhauer Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia Images and Photos: Helena Kristiansson (via ESL and Blizzard), unnamed photographers for Blizzard and ESL.
$o$ is a true legend Those Vods where the best so far. If serral or reynor will be first i wont like it. As they havent won anything in WOL or HOTS compare them to a leenock/maru/life at that age. At the moment they are of course the best with clem but not all time in my opinion it has to be a korean Zest/Maru/Dark/Rogue/Innovation.
No one will ever be like sOs. The only shame is it took 3 world championships for people to start to actually appreciate what he could do. But it's good the community looks back on him with nothing but praise, even if they didn't during his prime
He also has the only reverse allkill in proleague history if I'm not mistaken?
This is another sOs masterpiece that didn't make the cut, but deserves a watch. (I feel very strongly about this!) I'll even write to convince you!
It's a rare trait indeed to be able to transform your opponent's greatest strength into a weakness, but that's just what sOs did in the opening week of Proleague way back in 2015. Facing off against one the smartest players to touch the game in TY, sOs weaved quite the convincing tale, leaving hints of an upcoming all-in all over the map. With one final touch, sOs pulled off the act of trickery, putting him ahead heading into the midgame.
As you can guess, sOs bungled the lead and the game became legitimately competitive until sOs eventually won. But that's the sOs experience. You don't get the good without the bad and, in a weird way, I think that's made him special.
Quite possibly my favorite player. IEM2014 finals was the greatest moment in SC2 history and particularly cathartic as someone who did actually predict him to win Blizzcon13.
The legitmacy of his placement on this list can be argued, but his ingenuity and impact on the game can never be overstated. One of the greatest of all time and the embodiment of Protoss itself.
Is sOs still playing sc2? I love to see him playing again even tough it sometimes end up with mediocre results but most importantly the funny plannings he will try beforehand.
On January 21 2024 11:28 Cricketer12 wrote: Quite possibly my favorite player. IEM2014 finals was the greatest moment in SC2 history and particularly cathartic as someone who did actually predict him to win Blizzcon13.
A fun side note is that sOs absolutely exposed herO for not scouting his main base to every protoss player in the world.
After losing that $100K finals to to back-to-back proxy gates, herO went on to lose.....
GSL 2014 season 1 ro8 (3 days after that loss to sOs) 2014 Kespa Cup grand finals 2014 Blizzcon ro8
....all to proxy gates that he didn't scout for
In terms of prize money, that cost somewhere between $135K - 295K in just one year, depending on how deep he would have gone in those events. While he probably wouldn't have won all of them if not for proxygates, it's funny to think that loss to sOs cost even more than just the famed $100K.
sOs was a real innovator. I never cared about watching protoss, but it'd be a lie to say that sOs wasn't exciting. I'm not sure if his builds were ever supposed to be viable, but he always pulled them off!
I'm glad he's getting recognition in this greatest list, since I feel like a lot of people simply write off his wins. But for pretty much the entire period he was active, you could never count him out from winning the whole thing.
When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
On January 21 2024 18:01 RPR_Tempest wrote: When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
Ironically the biggest big money maker is Rogue, who made $500k in 3 tournaments compared to sOs' $300k in 3 tournaments, but Rogue is also so successful at non-big money tournies (also won in later years) that he doesn't get the moniker.
On January 21 2024 18:01 RPR_Tempest wrote: When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
Ironically the biggest big money maker is Rogue, who made $500k in 3 tournaments compared to sOs' $300k in 3 tournaments, but Rogue is also so successful at non-big money tournies (also won in later years) that he doesn't get the moniker.
I think winning a legitimate winner-takes-all tourney (IMO aside from drama an awful format) probably is going to seal that particular deal.
On January 21 2024 18:01 RPR_Tempest wrote: When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
Ironically the biggest big money maker is Rogue, who made $500k in 3 tournaments compared to sOs' $300k in 3 tournaments, but Rogue is also so successful at non-big money tournies (also won in later years) that he doesn't get the moniker.
I think winning a legitimate winner-takes-all tourney (IMO aside from drama an awful format) probably is going to seal that particular deal.
Also $o$ kind of just works better than R$gu€
I've heard whispers over the years that the final 8 or 4 (whatever it was) players remaining wanted to arrange a prizesplit, but herO was vehemently against it.
On January 21 2024 18:01 RPR_Tempest wrote: When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
Ironically the biggest big money maker is Rogue, who made $500k in 3 tournaments compared to sOs' $300k in 3 tournaments, but Rogue is also so successful at non-big money tournies (also won in later years) that he doesn't get the moniker.
I think winning a legitimate winner-takes-all tourney (IMO aside from drama an awful format) probably is going to seal that particular deal.
Also $o$ kind of just works better than R$gu€
I've heard whispers over the years that the final 8 or 4 (whatever it was) players remaining wanted to arrange a prizesplit, but herO was vehemently against it.
Glad to see sOs here, he's truly one of the games biggest legends and one of my favorite players. I guess this means Dark or Stats won't make the list now?
On January 21 2024 23:29 Charoisaur wrote: Glad to see sOs here, he's truly one of the games biggest legends and one of my favorite players. I guess this means Dark or Stats won't make the list now?
I think both Stats and soO don't make it, although I'd personally have both of them over Rain. The top 5 is a lock, and Zest+Dark probably get picked over those two.
On January 21 2024 23:29 Charoisaur wrote: Glad to see sOs here, he's truly one of the games biggest legends and one of my favorite players. I guess this means Dark or Stats won't make the list now?
Yeah i think stats is out. Top 6 should be pretty easy to figure, 7th is the only unknown
On January 21 2024 18:01 RPR_Tempest wrote: When you think big money player, you think $o$. Not many nicknames were as earned as that one. His lack of results outside of the absolute biggest stages and prize pools just adds to his charm, making him a lot more memorable than if he were just winning everything.
Ironically the biggest big money maker is Rogue, who made $500k in 3 tournaments compared to sOs' $300k in 3 tournaments, but Rogue is also so successful at non-big money tournies (also won in later years) that he doesn't get the moniker.
Well Rogue kinda got lucky he peaked when the blizzcon prize pool got inflated, him and sOs won the same tournaments at the end of the day. sOs' first two championships both being $100K prizes is a something to behold
TY also came unbelievably close to winning $600K in one year (we won WeSG, Katowice, and then threw the deciding map in the Blizzcon ro4, where he would have been a lock in the finals).
sOs vs herO 2014 IEM Katowice - Grand Finals (March 16, 2014) was my first public viewing of StarCraft 2. The game was still big enough to attract a decent crowd. It was a memorable match and we had a great time.
I always wanted someone to go back and do a real dive-in on the hero vs sos finals. Ppl just wrote it off as awful, but I am pretty sure it is a masterclass in planning a series. I really like Parting vs ty as well that is one where both of them were planning amazingly. Rogue destroying maru when he had OP ravens was another.
sOs, rogue, ty, parting and even to a lesser degree solar, are the players that I really admire because they're not just playing ladder as one race against the other, no they really play the player and sOs, rogue and ty did this on the biggest of stages. The lotv part of sOs shows the struggle of protoss, but he didn't become irrelevant, I think it's a feat that he could continue playing a very cerebral style in a completely different game as well. It's like how someone awesome like MC could still come back and have flashes of brilliance. Edit: The duckdeok vs innovation and sos vs maru, I actually predicted, these two always had a weakness to toss bullshit, especially in hots where it was stronger.
On January 22 2024 03:48 ejozl wrote: I always wanted someone to go back and do a real dive-in on the hero vs sos finals. Ppl just wrote it off as awful, but I am pretty sure it is a masterclass in planning a series. I really like Parting vs ty as well that is one where both of them were planning amazingly. Rogue destroying maru when he had OP ravens was another.
sOs picked up on the fact herO never ever scouted for proxygates. Every other Korean protoss soon followed and got themselves free wins against him.
But I think his finals vs Jaedong was an even greater display of planning. Jaedong got played like a fiddle, mindgame'd and countered every map. Even on the one game sOs lost, he had Jaedong fooled on what was going on.
Rogue has a lot of similar wins. Although I'll say in that case he had significantly more OP nydus than Maru had ravens. That event, he won at least one game every match, sometimes 2, with unkillable nydus worms allins without even trying to hide them. It was broken beyond reason
On January 22 2024 03:48 ejozl wrote: I always wanted someone to go back and do a real dive-in on the hero vs sos finals. Ppl just wrote it off as awful, but I am pretty sure it is a masterclass in planning a series. I really like Parting vs ty as well that is one where both of them were planning amazingly. Rogue destroying maru when he had OP ravens was another.
sOs picked up on the fact herO never ever scouted for proxygates. Every other Korean protoss soon followed and got themselves free wins against him.
But I think his finals vs Jaedong was an even greater display of planning. Jaedong got played like a fiddle, mindgame'd and countered every map. Even on the one game sOs lost, he had Jaedong fooled on what was going on.
Rogue has a lot of similar wins. Although I'll say in that case he had significantly more OP nydus than Maru had ravens. That event, he won at least one game every match, sometimes 2, with unkillable nydus worms allins without even trying to hide them. It was broken beyond reason
I feel Rogue planned well but made use of some pretty grotesque parts of the Zerg arsenal, whereas with sOs it was very tailored, often mindgamey with further mind games if it got spotted, and frequently not especially potent stuff without those elements.
At least in the real big clutch moments that somewhat define both of their careers, in lesser games I recall Rogue doing more inventive, cleverly tailored wonky stuff. Like regular Proleague matches, GSL groups etc.
I hope this doesn’t sound like a diss at Rogue at all, not my intent at all! Perfectly fine to crush someone with certain tendencies with a known strong all-in or two, but with sOs it felt like there was that extra layer to it.
Also still salty that Trap got swarmhost/nydused to death in two GSL finals by Dark and Rogue :p
Yay! So happy to see him on this list. Truly a special player, in many ways I think embodies the kind of creative play that should be much more viable in RTS at the highest levels of competition.
On January 22 2024 08:08 Amoyu7 wrote: Now that we have Rain, TY and sOs, and the top 6 would surely be some arrangement of Serral, Maru, Rogue, MVP, Innovation, Zest
This makes me sad that Dark got left out. I would have him placed on top of Rain. One of the greatest career longevity second only to Maru, one world champion title and one second place, most Ro4 finishes in premiere tournaments only after Serral and Maru, I think he deserves a top 10 spot. If only he won just a couple more of those heartbreaking 3:4 final losses. He lost EIGHT premiere finals with score of 3:4, can you believe that?
On January 22 2024 08:08 Amoyu7 wrote: This makes me sad that Dark got left out. I would have him placed on top of Rain. One of the greatest career longevity second only to Maru, one world champion title and one second place, most Ro4 finishes in premiere tournaments only after Serral and Maru, I think he deserves a top 10 spot. If only he won just a couple more of those heartbreaking 3:4 final losses. He lost EIGHT premiere finals with score of 3:4, can you believe that?
As a fan, I always knew Dark wasn't the most clutch player, but never actually looked up the numbers and man...
11-16 (40%) in bo7s, and 2-11 (15%) in game 7s. Including the game 7 he played in proleague. Heartbreaking how many times matches went the distance and then slipped away....
For reference to two players infamous for being extremely clutch:
sOs: 7-9 (44%) in bo7s, and 4-4 (50%) in game 7s. Rogue: 13-1 (93%) in bo7s, and 5-1 (83%) in game 7s
sOs' numbers aren't actually that impressive on paper, but he still pulled it out of the bag when it mattered, and that's what being clutch is really about.
On January 22 2024 09:13 spirit76 wrote: IEM is considered a world championship?
am i wrong or years ago the only world champion was the winner of the blizzcon/wcs?
You're not wrong. They were always called the World Championship, but like you said, Blizzcon/WCS was THE World Championship. It was around maybe like 2018/9ish where people seemed to start seriously considering all these tournaments with World Championship in the name to be a, well, World Championship.
Since the death of WCS, the IEM World Championship is now definitely the World Championship though.
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
On January 22 2024 09:13 spirit76 wrote: IEM is considered a world championship?
am i wrong or years ago the only world champion was the winner of the blizzcon/wcs?
You're not wrong. They were always called the World Championship, but like you said, Blizzcon/WCS was THE World Championship. It was around maybe like 2018/9ish where people seemed to start seriously considering all these tournaments with World Championship in the name to be a, well, World Championship.
Since the death of WCS, the IEM World Championship is now definitely the World Championship though.
IEM were the official end-of-the-year World Championship for 3 years (2021-2023), although the first one was online and got its prizepool cut down by one-half. This year IEM is not the World Championship as ESL decide to extend the EPT "year" by 6 more months. To me, there isnt much of a difference between before-and-after with IEM, it makes it like Rogue winning 2 IEM wasnt that as valuable to the 1 that Serral/Oilveira won even though its nearly the same tournament format/prizepool
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
On January 22 2024 08:08 Amoyu7 wrote: This makes me sad that Dark got left out. I would have him placed on top of Rain. One of the greatest career longevity second only to Maru, one world champion title and one second place, most Ro4 finishes in premiere tournaments only after Serral and Maru, I think he deserves a top 10 spot. If only he won just a couple more of those heartbreaking 3:4 final losses. He lost EIGHT premiere finals with score of 3:4, can you believe that?
As a fan, I always knew Dark wasn't the most clutch player, but never actually looked up the numbers and man...
11-16 (40%) in bo7s, and 2-11 (15%) in game 7s. Including the game 7 he played in proleague. Heartbreaking how many times matches went the distance and then slipped away....
For reference to two players infamous for being extremely clutch:
sOs: 7-9 (44%) in bo7s, and 4-4 (50%) in game 7s. Rogue: 13-1 (93%) in bo7s, and 5-1 (83%) in game 7s
sOs' numbers aren't actually that impressive on paper, but he still pulled it out of the bag when it mattered, and that's what being clutch is really about.
Wasn't Valencia vs Maru in 2022 his first ever game 7 premier finals win? You can see the desperation in his face when Maru wins game 6 and brings it to 3-3. It's indeed really sad, he has that sort of playstyle that requires unshakable confidence, and game 7s really don't bring that out in him...
I still do hope he ends up on the list though, and I think he will based on how things are trending
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
I think the problem is less about damage or the 12 worker start and more about power and mobility creep. If you compare WoL units to the same units in current LotV, there's gotta be at least 5 or 6 which got movement speed buffs over the years. Off the top of my head I can think of overlords, chargelots, void rays, observers, tempests, motherships, probably more.
Then you add medivac boosts (game changing), adepts, BC teleports... and you start to realize WoL was a very different game than LotV is today.
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
I think the problem is less about damage or the 12 worker start and more about power and mobility creep. If you compare WoL units to the same units in current LotV, there's gotta be at least 5 or 6 which got movement speed buffs over the years. Off the top of my head I can think of overlords, chargelots, void rays, observers, tempests, motherships, probably more.
Then you add medivac boosts (game changing), adepts, BC teleports... and you start to realize WoL was a very different game than LotV is today.
Very valid points. There's definitely a lot more going on at once than there ever was in WoL or HotS, and all of it is going on a lot faster than before too!
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
Seven years later, I'd say that there was an expected increase in variety over time. But, as players got better at LotV, the stages highlighted in this article are skipped more often than ever. I enjoy watching LotV and HotS, but I find Hots the better of the two.
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
I think zealots should have an upgrade to do splash damage
My all-time favourite player and my personal #5 in the list (Serral, Maru, Innovation/Rogue, sOs)
The best at basetrades, the best in proleague and imo the greatest HotS player Winning championships without ever being the "best" player, but the smartest instead
The fact that, for years after his peak, he was the last one chosen in the GSL group pick is a huge sign of how much respect this man is due
An alien genius that loved to have fun with the game using his own rules
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
Yeah, some players feel like they're doing weird things because they're so dedicated to winning no matter what. sOs feels like he's doing weird things because that's what he likes to do. When they work, he comes off less like a calculating mastermind and more like a crazy space wizard. And when they very definitely don't work, he still comes off like a crazy space wizard.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
Seven years later, I'd say that there was an expected increase in variety over time. But, as players got better at LotV, the stages highlighted in this article are skipped more often than ever. I enjoy watching LotV and HotS, but I find Hots the better of the two.
Another great article from the past that I'd forgotten about!
\o/
EDIT:
I'm still really sad that they got rid of the WoL and HotS ladders. I much preferred both to LotV. It's a shame that none of the new RTS games coming out look like they will have that same feel, but I suppose I wouldn't expect them to.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
The best (probably) current Protoss hasn't won enough to be top 15 material. Definitely tracks.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
The best (probably) current Protoss hasn't won enough to be top 15 material. Definitely tracks.
Turns out its a GOAT poll not a top 10 toss poll. Crazy
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him.
The op names six people. I had TY, Rain and sOs ahead of him. That makes nine. Then you have Stats, Dark, Nestea, Reynor and soO, which brings the total of players above him to 14. What you make of herO compared to the likes of Classic, Trap, Cure, MC and a couple others is up to you, but that could put him 19 or lower If you disagree with my assement that's fine, but I think there's a reasonable argument that herO belongs there.
PS: The research for all of this started about a year and herO actually had a lot upward mobility after winning Code S and Atlanta back to back (winning that is way more impressive than a 4 round korean weekender, imo), but he didn't live up to that in 2023. Had he added a couple of really good finishes to his resume in 2023 he could be in this list.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him.
The op names six people. I had TY, Rain and sOs ahead of him. That makes nine. Then you have Stats, Dark, Nestea, Reynor and soO, which brings the total of players above him to 14. What you make of herO compared to the likes of Classic, Trap, Cure, MC and a couple others is up to you, but that could put him 19 or lower If you disagree with my assement that's fine, but I think there's a reasonable argument that herO belongs there.
PS: The research for all of this started about a year and herO actually had a lot upward mobility after winning Code S and Atlanta back to back (winning that is way more impressive than a 4 round korean weekender, imo), but he didn't live up to that in 2023. Had he added a couple of really good finishes to his resume in 2023 he could be in this list.
Yeah I disagree. I'm not looking that much at winrates but in terms of tournament wins / high placements he definitely should be above Rain. Rain has an OSL, a GSL, Hot6ix Cup, a HSC and WCS Asia. herO has an SSL, a GSL, GSL Super tournament, Kespa Cup, DH Atlanta and 3 IEM. So in terms of wins herO is objectively better. Adding 2nd places herO also made it to a world championship finals, a Kespa Cup, GSL Super tournament and IEM Shanghai while Rain has two 2nd places (IEM San Jose and WCS Korea). He also has way more 3/4rd places than Rain.
It seems you have different criteria than just counting the top tournament results, but in terms of tournament results there's no way herO is below Rain.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
Hmm I disagree. He has 8 premiers, among them 2 Starleagues and 2 other korean cups. He doesn't have a world Championship but neither have Rain/Stats. top 10 maybe not, but I don't think there are 15 players with a better resume then him.
The op names six people. I had TY, Rain and sOs ahead of him. That makes nine. Then you have Stats, Dark, Nestea, Reynor and soO, which brings the total of players above him to 14. What you make of herO compared to the likes of Classic, Trap, Cure, MC and a couple others is up to you, but that could put him 19 or lower If you disagree with my assement that's fine, but I think there's a reasonable argument that herO belongs there.
PS: The research for all of this started about a year and herO actually had a lot upward mobility after winning Code S and Atlanta back to back (winning that is way more impressive than a 4 round korean weekender, imo), but he didn't live up to that in 2023. Had he added a couple of really good finishes to his resume in 2023 he could be in this list.
Yeah I disagree. I'm not looking that much at winrates but in terms of tournament wins / high placements he definitely should be above Rain. Rain has an OSL, a GSL, Hot6ix Cup, a HSC and WCS Asia. herO has an SSL, a GSL, GSL Super tournament, Kespa Cup, DH Atlanta and 3 IEM. So in terms of wins herO is objectively better. Adding 2nd places herO also made it to a world championship finals, a Kespa Cup, GSL Super tournament and IEM Shanghai while Rain has two 2nd places (IEM San Jose and WCS Korea). He also has way more 3/4rd places than Rain.
It seems you have different criteria than just counting the top tournament results, but in terms of tournament results there's no way herO is below Rain.
So you give Rain no credit for winning five events in 43 months, whereas herO has won eight in his 12 years (or 144 months playing StarCraft (this includes his time serving in the military fyi)? What really dings herO (assuming you put importance on this whole line of thought) is, despite having a nearly 3x longer career, herO still doesn't have as many KIL final appearances, as Rain leads 3 vs 2.
I'm not saying that's the winning argument, but it has to factor in at some point. When it comes to ranking players longevity is a double edged sword. You have to find a way to assign value to a long career in which a player gradually compiled a lot of results with some fallow periods compared as well as someone who had a shorter career, but won/did things at a far greater clip and was a more consistent championship quality player.
I think the "is longevity good or bad?" argument is one of the most difficult things to determine when making a list like this. As such, it plays a huge role in where everyone ends up and leads to a lot of disagreements.
I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
There's no guarantee at all that someone like Rain would've continued winning if he kept playing. Other greats like sOs, Zest, Classic, soO also fell off compared to the HotS era.
During their primes, and when they played together, Rain was significantly better. And he had much bigger impact on game, defining how to play macro protoss and how PvP worked (although Zest ended up outshining him).
I can see putting Rain above him for those reasons. He was a better player, especially in Korea.
Outside of the odd season (late 2015 and 2017) herO was never that dominant, and never a favourite to win tournaments. Unlike everyone else in the top 10. Even now, as the best protoss in the world, he's often lackluster to watch (says more about protoss as a whole).
That being said, herO stuck around for 3x as long, and had a resurgence good enough to bag championships in 2017 and 2022. Is 3 championships more by playing an extra 8 years worthy of such greatness ?
I think it can go either way, it depends how much you value staying around for long enough to have few more great runs. Dominance vs longevity. Personally I'd rank Rain higher as he was a defining factor for protoss as a race, and while herOs longevity is impressive, it's not unheard of. Nether would be in my top 10 btw
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
There's no guarantee at all that someone like Rain would've continued winning if he kept playing. Other greats like sOs, Zest, Classic, soO also fell off compared to the HotS era.
I'm not extrapolating and projecting what Rain's career might have been. Fictional events have no bearing on reality. Our opinions on this clearly differs, but I can understand why you would have herO higher than Rain. I hope you can do the same with why I have Rain over herO. And, just to be clear, there is no universal rule that short is better than long or more trophies is better than less. This is all on a case by case basis.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players.
Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that!
I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited.
Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times.
It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar.
I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that.
I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players.
Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that!
I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited.
Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times.
It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar.
I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that.
I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc.
Kind of interesting how much you would weigh someone ever clearly being #1 at some point in time. It seems like a very important factor, almost impossible to imagine a top 10 player who wasn't, but the obvious counterpoint is soO. Even when he won Kespa cup and especially IEM Katowice, I don't think anyone would have still picked him as the favorite to win a tournament held the next day. I mean he barely made it out of group stages at Katowice.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players.
Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that!
I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited.
Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times.
It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar.
I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that.
I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc.
Kind of interesting how much you would weigh someone ever clearly being #1 at some point in time. It seems like a very important factor, almost impossible to imagine a top 10 player who wasn't, but the obvious counterpoint is soO. Even when he won Kespa cup and especially IEM Katowice, I don't think anyone would have still picked him as the favorite to win a tournament held the next day. I mean he barely made it out of group stages at Katowice.
Yeah it’s tricky, if I look at say Andy Murray in tennis, via quite a few metrics he’s in or around top 10 all time. But despite that, despite a period at number 1 in the rankings he was never really the outright best player like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic had long stints being. Despite being a clear fourth best of that quartet, there’s definitely still a case that he’d place above others who may have held that best in the world mantle at some stage. It’s a tricky one!
I mean it’s as much subjective and about aura as anything else. I don’t think there have been many players in SC2’s history who’ve ever gapped the competition to be the best player as opposed to one of a bunch of S tier players, and even those who have have rarely actually swept the competition to get a trophy haul to match.
I’ll probably miss someone out from my already small list, but curious as to what others think.
Mvp was definitely a cut above for a while, plus I feel he really mapped out the framework for Terran play, when much of this list will be players iterating on a game with more meta meat on its bones.
Rain as I mentioned I think had a short period the argument could be made.
He Who Must Not Be NamedTM I think had a stint with that status, Innovation on his initial peak, and albeit there’s some overlap I think Maru and Serral have kind of shared the mantle for quite a few years now at various points. Maybe more of a top 2 who’ve rarely had periods where they’re gapping each other, but I think they’re a cut above, or have been at many times.
I did have a brief hiatus and as I say, it’s as much an aura thing as something borne out by stats, so others may have emitted such a vibe when I wasn’t looking.
But it’s that feeling of regardless of who’s on the table facing them, thinking they’re probably going to win, and basically any loss feels an upset. That ‘holy shit this bloke just stomped another top 4 player easily’ post match kind of feel.
I don’t think there’s actually been too many throughout the years all told
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players.
Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that!
I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited.
Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times.
It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar.
I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that.
I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc.
I disagree that Maru's longevity is "fortuitous". He was able to have such a long career because he entered the pro scene at age 13(!). That's not luck, that's his reward for being competitive at such a young age. If it was that easy everyone would have entered the pro scene at age 13.
On January 24 2024 05:52 JJH777 wrote: I always dislike punishing players for having a longer career in that way. I think taking into account winrates already gives shorter career players enough of a boon because it's a lot easier to maintain a high winrate in a short career. Continuing to play does not guarantee that you'll continue accumulating wins or even high finishes.
It seems silly to me to say that someone like Maru is actually less impressive because he was already pro level at 13 years old because that means he won less tournaments per year as an active pro than he would have if he didn't get good until 15-16. The fact that he was a prodigy already capable of competing with pros at all that young should be looked at as a positive on his career not as he had 3 years of medicore results that drag down his career.
Exactly, Whether winning 5 events during 1 year or 5 events during 10 years is more impressive can't be convincingly argued one way or the other imo because both, longevity and dominance are impressive in their own way.
Those who played for a long time deserve recognition, sure. But in the context of sc2 I think it's clear that winning 5 top tier events in 1 year is more impressive than 5 in 10. Plenty of players have won 5 events over several years, only like Mvp (in a year oversaturated with tournaments) has won 5 in a single year. Even Maru, INno, Zest, Serral never won more than 4.
It's not like herO, for example, was a tournament favourite for 10 years, he becomes a contender again for a season or so every couple of years.
No one should be playing punishing players for having a longer career, or playing past their primes, and I don't think that's what's happening here. But when comparing two players of similar achievements, I think it's correct to say the one who did it in a shorter period was the greater player.
It’s additionally complicated by the game being new, format changes, influx of talents and things like military service. Then injuries come into the equation too for some players.
Maru’s longevity is impressive but, also fortuitous at the same time. No knock on him but his age profile, starting way back in WoL he’s almost got such a span by default. He’s got to span the pre, Kespa and post-Kespa eras, I can’t think of any Korean pro who’s had the shot without a military service interruption. Now, he’s absolutely made good use of it, can’t deny that!
I mean they’ve been around so long it’s easy to forget the Kespa influx had to switch and learn an entirely new game in a scene where folks had a head start. But eSF guys laid foundations too, which needs credited.
Then we’ve multiple shifts in games, scenes and I’d say it’s fair that there’s been a fluctuation in depth of talent at different times.
It’s quite easy, at least if we don’t go back too far in time, players in established sports with more static structures. Ronaldinho’s absolute peak was majestic, but Lionel Messi hit those heights for like 15 years to Dinho’s 2, it’s quite simple to anoint him the greater. Football hasn’t remained entirely static but it’s still the world’s number 1 sport, the player pool remains equivalently deep, the tournament structure and competitions have remained very similar.
I think what splits Rain, from herO for me is Rain got good, really quickly and I think spent some time as the best player in the world. herO has always been a top player, but perennially in that pack of tournament contenders without ever really being a clear top dog, even amongst his race never mind overall. They’ve similar enough accomplishments per annum, as something of a tie-breaker I’ll go to that.
I’d probably weigh longevity higher in my calculations if it weren’t for those aforementioned factors, for example BW competition had years where the structure was established and remained largely consistent, so it’s easier to include without overlap of other variables and different eras, iterations of the game etc.
I disagree that Maru's longevity is "fortuitous". He was able to have such a long career because he entered the pro scene at age 13(!). That's not luck, that's his reward for being competitive at such a young age. If it was that easy everyone would have entered the pro scene at age 13.
As I said it’s no knock on Maru, but he’s almost uniquely placed.
Guys like Serral, Clem and Reynor were somewhat restricted in their young years due to ESL/German law (and tbh it’s not something I disagree with) and had to wait until the ancient age of 16 to play their regionals.
Also aside from learning his trade and being extremely young, which is a testament to his talent it did take Maru a while to actually do much of real note.
Equally he eventually delivered on his undoubtedly ability so it’s largely immaterial, contrast with a Creator who burst into the scene as a 14/15 year old and then had one of the most frustrating careers of any player I can think of.
I can’t overstate how this is not a slight on Maru, more an acknowledgement of the quirks of the scene and other good fortune.
Does Maru get picked up onto a pro team at 13 if Kespa had been in SC2 from the start? He’s too talented not to have got picked up, even if it’s a few years later. Has he thus far avoided military service just because of his age profile? Of Koreans of a similar age profile and vaguely equivalent talent, who started as SC2 players Taeja’s wrists exploded and Life self-sabotaged
There’s just so many outside factors to longevity in a game that’s seen so many shifts that outside of otherwise equivalent cases I tend not to weigh it as highly as others is all
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
The best (probably) current Protoss hasn't won enough to be top 15 material. Definitely tracks.
Turns out its a GOAT poll not a top 10 toss poll. Crazy
It was a playful knock on the struggles Protoss has had winning premier tournaments in the recent past. I wasn't being serious.
So according to most people's predictions, there's no space left for MC on the list... how the HELL is rain considered more impactful/successful in sc2 than the BossToss?? seems crazy to me, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion... On another note, great writeup, I love reading these!! thank you for the list
Edit: maybe the power of hindsight was too strong... MC wasn't as dominant as I remembered... I'd still have placed him at #10 but alas, fair enough, herO could also be argued to have a right to that spot.... Guess I'm just old and remember the OG GOATS too vividly haha
On February 13 2024 12:10 [Phantom] wrote: MY favorite sOs game, was when he made a proxy nexus inside the enemy base, to build a probe inside, to build a hidden pylon, to warp dts.
Greatest game of all time
Tasteless: He basically has done every kind of strat conceivable Artosis: And some even inconceivable *Nexus starts warping in* Artosis: OK OK OK
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/sosstatsblizzcon.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/sosiem.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/sospyeongchang.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/chart1.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/chart2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/sOs8/chart3.png)
Those Vods where the best so far.
