Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
On January 22 2024 08:08 Amoyu7 wrote: This makes me sad that Dark got left out. I would have him placed on top of Rain. One of the greatest career longevity second only to Maru, one world champion title and one second place, most Ro4 finishes in premiere tournaments only after Serral and Maru, I think he deserves a top 10 spot. If only he won just a couple more of those heartbreaking 3:4 final losses. He lost EIGHT premiere finals with score of 3:4, can you believe that?
As a fan, I always knew Dark wasn't the most clutch player, but never actually looked up the numbers and man...
11-16 (40%) in bo7s, and 2-11 (15%) in game 7s. Including the game 7 he played in proleague. Heartbreaking how many times matches went the distance and then slipped away....
For reference to two players infamous for being extremely clutch:
sOs: 7-9 (44%) in bo7s, and 4-4 (50%) in game 7s. Rogue: 13-1 (93%) in bo7s, and 5-1 (83%) in game 7s
sOs' numbers aren't actually that impressive on paper, but he still pulled it out of the bag when it mattered, and that's what being clutch is really about.
Wasn't Valencia vs Maru in 2022 his first ever game 7 premier finals win? You can see the desperation in his face when Maru wins game 6 and brings it to 3-3. It's indeed really sad, he has that sort of playstyle that requires unshakable confidence, and game 7s really don't bring that out in him...
I still do hope he ends up on the list though, and I think he will based on how things are trending
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
I think the problem is less about damage or the 12 worker start and more about power and mobility creep. If you compare WoL units to the same units in current LotV, there's gotta be at least 5 or 6 which got movement speed buffs over the years. Off the top of my head I can think of overlords, chargelots, void rays, observers, tempests, motherships, probably more.
Then you add medivac boosts (game changing), adepts, BC teleports... and you start to realize WoL was a very different game than LotV is today.
Whether it was due to lack of motivation after his many successes, or simply his inability to transition fully to Legacy of the Void, sOs went down a path of slow decline.
I think it's fair to say that SC2 has trended towards being more RT than S with each expansion, and players like sOs are definitely a victim of that.
Yupp, I think is the major downside of the 12 work start.
It's not just the 12 worker start, but that's definitely a contributing factor.
I personally think that too many things have been added to the game that deal "terrible, terrible damage" in the blink of an eye, especially to worker lines, but maybe that's just because I'm getting older and slower and so such things are heavily against me haha!
I think the problem is less about damage or the 12 worker start and more about power and mobility creep. If you compare WoL units to the same units in current LotV, there's gotta be at least 5 or 6 which got movement speed buffs over the years. Off the top of my head I can think of overlords, chargelots, void rays, observers, tempests, motherships, probably more.
Then you add medivac boosts (game changing), adepts, BC teleports... and you start to realize WoL was a very different game than LotV is today.
Very valid points. There's definitely a lot more going on at once than there ever was in WoL or HotS, and all of it is going on a lot faster than before too!
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
Seven years later, I'd say that there was an expected increase in variety over time. But, as players got better at LotV, the stages highlighted in this article are skipped more often than ever. I enjoy watching LotV and HotS, but I find Hots the better of the two.
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
I think zealots should have an upgrade to do splash damage
My all-time favourite player and my personal #5 in the list (Serral, Maru, Innovation/Rogue, sOs)
The best at basetrades, the best in proleague and imo the greatest HotS player Winning championships without ever being the "best" player, but the smartest instead
The fact that, for years after his peak, he was the last one chosen in the GSL group pick is a huge sign of how much respect this man is due
An alien genius that loved to have fun with the game using his own rules
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
Yeah, some players feel like they're doing weird things because they're so dedicated to winning no matter what. sOs feels like he's doing weird things because that's what he likes to do. When they work, he comes off less like a calculating mastermind and more like a crazy space wizard. And when they very definitely don't work, he still comes off like a crazy space wizard.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 23 2024 06:49 Captain Peabody wrote: Very happy to see sOs here!
Not an exaggeration to say that he's maybe my favorite RTS player ever. Not in skill or storyline or heart in the ordinary sense, but just in sheer creativity and fun and entertainment value. I don't think I've ever watched an sOs game I didn't enjoy; even during his late decline, when he was bombing out of every tournament, he still brought something to every game he played. Yes, he sometimes won big at big tournaments with his crazy strats, but at the end of the day it felt like he didn't even do it for the sake of winning: he did it because of sheer irrepressible joi de vivre, because he couldn't help but express the wonder and madness inside his heart, and cannons and Nexus and Stalkers and were his canvas and paint.
That will never be matched, imo. God bless sOs!
That's the nice thing about sOs. He's memorable even in defeat. He has some glorious mishaps like losing to a supply depot or getting his army blown up by widow mines because he left his army standing on top of them. It's just part of his charm.
On January 22 2024 23:06 BonitiilloO wrote: The 12 worker start kills many early strats and thinking, is there a way to test LOVT with let say 8 workers instead of 12?
Ofc there is and it is easy to make. I personally think 12 workers is fine, but I would cut the 50 minerals at the start. This makes it so that you can send the first worker slightly earlier and there is also a difference between instantly making your first worker and waiting for the first 50 minerals. In this way I think it would open up the decision tree quite a bit, without sacrificing much speed.
The mobility creep and the inability to defend locations with strong defensive capabilities/AoE that works, is what speeds the game up. It's a case of tactics vs. outmaneuvering. LotV introduced many mechanics to be able to play more positionally, which is needed with an economy with more emphasis on expanding. Otherwise you end up like we do now with Protoss unable to defend and dying to T mobility, because the defensive capabilities have been nerfed. (Battery, Disruptor)
Seven years later, I'd say that there was an expected increase in variety over time. But, as players got better at LotV, the stages highlighted in this article are skipped more often than ever. I enjoy watching LotV and HotS, but I find Hots the better of the two.
Another great article from the past that I'd forgotten about!
\o/
EDIT:
I'm still really sad that they got rid of the WoL and HotS ladders. I much preferred both to LotV. It's a shame that none of the new RTS games coming out look like they will have that same feel, but I suppose I wouldn't expect them to.
On January 24 2024 00:22 Locutus_ wrote: The last 7...
7th herO
6th Zest
5th Innovation
4th Mvp
3rd Rogue
2nd Maru
1st Serral
herO does have an incredible proleague resume, but with only 2 kil wins and 0 world championships (he won other stuff, but this is pretty damning) he's not even top 15 material.
EPT
