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tigera6
3515 Posts
On October 22 2023 20:01 Elantris wrote: Remove top 2 from zerg and terran but not protoss? Are you serious? Yeah, Terran lineup would be Clem-Byun-Gumiho-Bunny-Oliveira Zerg lineup would be Solar-Dark/Reynor-Ragrarok-DRG-Elazer/Scarlett/Lambo Protoss would be MaxPax-herO-Classic-Creator-Showtime/Astrea I think it would be a competitive match in that case, after removing Maru-Cure and Serral-Reynor/Dark. | ||
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KarlSiegt
Italy36 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
Take Serral, the dude just looks undefeatable, if you nerfed Zerg to the point where Serral looked like a normal human the race would probably be way underpowered. I don't think Dark looks untouchable in ZvP, nor does Reynor, Hero and Classic have shown repeatedly that they can deal with them. It's Serral and Maru that just always look like they are 5 steps ahead of any Protoss player. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On October 22 2023 00:10 Herringbone wrote: So the reason that the recent qualifiers for Winter are 19 Protoss, 7 Terran, and 6 zerg is just random? Adding to what aringadingding said, the argument for Protoss to be weaker has always been referring to Protoss being weaker at the top levels (not being able to win premier tournaments, not being able to win GSL Code S, not being able to win in a Bo7 vs Zerg, etc.). So even if a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualified, it would still be problematic as the race is doing weaker at the top level (and maybe too well/easy at the high level). On October 22 2023 03:09 Poopi wrote: Can’t this argument also be used to justify the low number of « premier tournament wins » from P since there are far more top Z/T than P after the departures of the top KR Protoss? IMO top protosses were falling off in LotV even before their departures. Top protosses didn't do as well in LotV as they did previous eras. Take Zest for example. In HotS: He won 1 GSL Code S 2014, a GSL global championship 2014, Kespa cup 2014, IEM Katowice 2015. In LotV: He won 1 GSL Code S in 2016 (very early LotV...), a couple HSC in 2017 (not much money though), and a GSL Super in 2022. He won like 4 big tournaments in 2014-15 (1 of them a world championship!), and only 2 big ones from 2016 to 2022. 4 if you wanna be generous and include HSC wins, but that's still a difference of 2 years vs 7 years. Or you could say 3 years for HotS, 7 years for LotV. Take sOs: In HotS: Won 3 world championships, and 2 smaller premiers (GSL Hot6ix Cup and MSI Masters) across 3 years. In LotV: Won 0 premier tournaments, the only thing he really won was a IEM Taipei major in 2016 across 6 years. A 3 time world championship winner could not win a single GSL, Super, or any other premier in LotV with double the time? That's why I don't think we can simply say that the top protoss departured, without addressing why they were just not doing as well in LotV before their departure. To me the reason is that the game and Protoss changed in ways that were not favorable to the race at the top level. LotV's "smaller more frequent skirmishes spread out around the map" helps expose the fragility and punishing nature of Protoss. Perhaps not PvT as Terran also suffered from an immobility issue especially vs warp-ins and recall, but definitely in PvZ. In HotS and WoL, you could stay on fewer bases for much longer of the game and have much less to defend because bases mined out way slower. Maps were also smaller making death pushes easier for Protoss to end the game. It's similar to the reasons Mech got weaker in LotV despite the buffs to units like Tanks and Thors. Another point regarding more recent balance: Classic and herO (not top, but 2 high protosses from their history as players) are among the protoss struggling with PvT. Add to the fact that Protoss still hasn't quite gotten enough in PvT to make up for the Overcharge nerf in the early-mid game, it seems clearly that there are some imbalance issues to me. | ||
Poopi
France13018 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On October 23 2023 02:05 Poopi wrote: In LotV they won more money than Terran almost every year except 2023 (and maybe 2022? Not sure) afaik. Since Zerg was slightly OP in 17-18 and broken in 2019, their players won far more money than the other two races, but otherwise, Protoss was doing pretty fine in LotV imo. Firstly, if that's true, I don't think we can use money as the sole indicator for how well a race is doing. Most people are talking about Protoss being weak at the top top level (winning premiers, not just getting Top 4-8 for example) and there are many factors that could confuddle things. For example we would have to look at the # of protoss players competing at various tournaments, etc. to come to any conclusion about whether Protoss winning more money than Terran indicates that Protoss has been doing better. I don't think most people would say that Protoss was doing as well as Terran in LotV, considering Terran has won many premiere tournaments and Protoss won so few GSL tournaments. (Setting aside how strong those races' players are, just talking about the race performance in general). Secondly, isn't admitting that Zerg was stronger/OP for 3 years, also admitting that Protoss was weaker due to having to deal with an imbalanced race? Of course Terran would have to deal with that fact too, but clearly they were able to win many big tournaments still compared to Protoss, and we've seen that top protosses struggled in long series vs Zerg at big tournaments whereas Terran didn't seem to have that issue. This indicates that Zerg imbalance in combination with the tournament format may have impacted Protoss. I'm a bit lost still on how the money thing can explain away why Zest and sOs were heavily underperforming in LotV compared to HotS. I feel that's the core of the argument, whether protoss is doing poorly in LotV because they lost their top players or because the race weakened and made it harder for top players to perform as well as in the past. If the reason is that Zerg was imbalanced, then I think we have the answer: Protoss has been disadvantaged by balance throughout much of LotV (at least 3 years because of Zerg, and now 1 year because of PvT from the last 2 balance patches). | ||
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Elantris
66 Posts
On October 22 2023 21:00 tigera6 wrote: Yeah, Terran lineup would be Clem-Byun-Gumiho-Bunny-Oliveira Zerg lineup would be Solar-Dark/Reynor-Ragrarok-DRG-Elazer/Scarlett/Lambo Protoss would be MaxPax-herO-Classic-Creator-Showtime/Astrea I think it would be a competitive match in that case, after removing Maru-Cure and Serral-Reynor/Dark. How stupid you need to be to think that this is okay? Maybe we should remove top10 zergs from bl/inf era and pretend that game was balanced back then? | ||
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tigera6
3515 Posts
On October 23 2023 02:33 Elantris wrote: How stupid you need to be to think that this is okay? Maybe we should remove top10 zergs from bl/inf era and pretend that game was balanced back then? Its just an illustration of how Protoss is lacking talent at the very top level, chill out. So when Dark leave for military, Rogue not coming back and Serral potentially retire, are you going to buff Zerg because they only have Reynor left? And then when Cure, then Maru leave for military does Terran need a buff? Its pretty dumb to balance around the very top level tournament result because of how players have to leave for military. Protoss would be in a fine place had Trap/Zest/Parting/Zoun still playing today, it has little to do with balance. Trap won multiple Dreamhack title, making a couple GSL Final, Zest made 2 IEM Final and won a Super Tournament, Parting and Zoun making deep run in GSL/Super Tournament. Were they playing in a different era than the current one? Current Protoss has herO who play a wild and unstable style, Classic who play solid but not exceptional in most way, and MaxPax who refuse to play offline tournament. There is a gap in talent depth at the moment, and the balance cant really fix that. | ||
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luxon
United States117 Posts
the current protoss player pool is much worse than the other 2 races yeah captain obvious this is the most common argument even by pro protosses eg harstem, etc. but as lambo says, you need to balance the game across the current pro players, not some imaginary player who could win but doesnt play. The next year will be dope as the first three tosses are due to finish their military service. Yes theyre going to come back full time when they can make more money working twice a week at 7-eleven lmao.reynor said the same thing in his interview, but it's more credible because he casually offraced P and beat dark, solar, elazer etc. solar has been a tier 2 zerg for a decade until the last few years. so you can make the same argument against him as you can for protoss. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
On October 23 2023 03:06 tigera6 wrote: Its just an illustration of how Protoss is lacking talent at the very top level, chill out. So when Dark leave for military, Rogue not coming back and Serral potentially retire, are you going to buff Zerg because they only have Reynor left? And then when Cure, then Maru leave for military does Terran need a buff? Its pretty dumb to balance around the very top level tournament result because of how players have to leave for military. Protoss would be in a fine place had Trap/Zest/Parting/Zoun still playing today, it has little to do with balance. Trap won multiple Dreamhack title, making a couple GSL Final, Zest made 2 IEM Final and won a Super Tournament, Parting and Zoun making deep run in GSL/Super Tournament. Were they playing in a different era than the current one? Current Protoss has herO who play a wild and unstable style, Classic who play solid but not exceptional in most way, and MaxPax who refuse to play offline tournament. There is a gap in talent depth at the moment, and the balance cant really fix that. Aye fair, hell even the GSL had to trim back the field as there’s just less depth than there used to be | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On October 23 2023 02:33 Elantris wrote: How stupid you need to be to think that this is okay? Maybe we should remove top10 zergs from bl/inf era and pretend that game was balanced back then? I still remember MVP getting stomped 3-0 by like the 8th best NA zerg, Goswer I believe (and it still took another 5 months to get a balance patch). That era was so insanely broken - nothing compares to that. | ||
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Drahkn
199 Posts
On October 23 2023 03:06 tigera6 wrote: Its just an illustration of how Protoss is lacking talent at the very top level, chill out. So when Dark leave for military, Rogue not coming back and Serral potentially retire, are you going to buff Zerg because they only have Reynor left? And then when Cure, then Maru leave for military does Terran need a buff? Its pretty dumb to balance around the very top level tournament result because of how players have to leave for military. Protoss would be in a fine place had Trap/Zest/Parting/Zoun still playing today, it has little to do with balance. Trap won multiple Dreamhack title, making a couple GSL Final, Zest made 2 IEM Final and won a Super Tournament, Parting and Zoun making deep run in GSL/Super Tournament. Were they playing in a different era than the current one? Current Protoss has herO who play a wild and unstable style, Classic who play solid but not exceptional in most way, and MaxPax who refuse to play offline tournament. There is a gap in talent depth at the moment, and the balance cant really fix that. Protoss is not lacking talent...... we have many super strong Protoss new and old and some have dominated in the past but cannot compete consistently anymore players like Maxpax/Creator herO and Classic to name a few are ELITE RTS players. Players like showtime astrea also are very strong but can't even hold a candle to the top players | ||
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sidasf
108 Posts
On October 21 2023 16:44 JustTTimberlake wrote: Solar 2-1 Classic , Solar 2-1 herO @ KSL this morning, definetely protoss op after patch  Yeah meanwhile Protoss 41% on GM ladder and Zerg 23%. It's called getting outplayed. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
On October 23 2023 06:14 sidasf wrote: Yeah meanwhile Protoss 41% on GM ladder and Zerg 23%. It's called getting outplayed. It’s been pretty obvious for forever that Protoss is easier to play to a semi-pro level, in a Bo1 ladder environment and is more fragile at the very, very top level and extended series. Both of these can be true simultaneously | ||
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geokilla
Canada8255 Posts
On October 23 2023 05:50 Drahkn wrote: Protoss is not lacking talent...... we have many super strong Protoss new and old and some have dominated in the past but cannot compete consistently anymore players like Maxpax/Creator herO and Classic to name a few are ELITE RTS players. Players like showtime astrea also are very strong but can't even hold a candle to the top players Creator and Classic are not elite in my opinion. Only Maxpax and maybe herO. We have many more Terran and Zerg players who I would classify as elite. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On October 23 2023 22:42 geokilla wrote: Creator and Classic are not elite in my opinion. Only Maxpax and maybe herO. We have many more Terran and Zerg players who I would classify as elite. Yea, I agree with this. Odd how it seems to parallel BW in a way where you have a couple of elite level Zerg and Terran players but Protoss had what, Bisu? Stork to a lesser extent? Just strange to me that Protoss underperforms at the highest level in BW and SC2, maybe the philosophy behind, "Fewer units but very strong" is just inherently harder to balance. | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On October 23 2023 22:58 Beelzebub1 wrote: It's really hard to call the design philosophy behind Protoss "fewer units but strong," when the shared theme of Protoss's struggles across the two games is that Zealot and Dragoons and Zealots and Stalkers (with Sentry support) get absolutely wrecked in a straight up fight by basically anything Terran and Zerg care to field against it, especially before the relevant Zealot speed upgrade comes online. I'd say that the flawed design philosophy behind Protoss is a core of inferior mass producible units supported by comparatively slow, fragile, and generally vulnerable tech units that are responsible for most of the army's damage output.Yea, I agree with this. Odd how it seems to parallel BW in a way where you have a couple of elite level Zerg and Terran players but Protoss had what, Bisu? Stork to a lesser extent? Just strange to me that Protoss underperforms at the highest level in BW and SC2, maybe the philosophy behind, "Fewer units but very strong" is just inherently harder to balance. There's also a common thread of poor synergy between Zealots and Dragoons, Stalkers, or Shield Batteries for defending against early aggression. I'll leave the details of why putting low dps ranged units or shield batteries behind Zealots doesn't do much of anything against ranged units with higher move speed as an exercise for the reader. It's definitely harder to balance. I'm not super up to date on what SC2's current meta looks like, but I'm aware that PvT Protoss has some significant weaknesses to early game attacks. A thread on analysis of Brood War games found that Protoss has significant vulnerability to timing attacks against both Zerg and Terran in that game. If SC2 PvZ also has a similar timing attack window where Protoss dies a lot, that's 4 out of 4 for Protoss having the same general vulnerability in non-mirror matchups. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On October 24 2023 11:17 Kyadytim wrote: It's really hard to call the design philosophy behind Protoss "fewer units but strong," when the shared theme of Protoss's struggles across the two games is that Zealot and Dragoons and Zealots and Stalkers (with Sentry support) get absolutely wrecked in a straight up fight by basically anything Terran and Zerg care to field against it, especially before the relevant Zealot speed upgrade comes online. I'd say that the flawed design philosophy behind Protoss is a core of inferior mass producible units supported by comparatively slow, fragile, and generally vulnerable tech units that are responsible for most of the army's damage output. There's also a common thread of poor synergy between Zealots and Dragoons, Stalkers, or Shield Batteries for defending against early aggression. I'll leave the details of why putting low dps ranged units or shield batteries behind Zealots doesn't do much of anything against ranged units with higher move speed as an exercise for the reader. It's definitely harder to balance. I'm not super up to date on what SC2's current meta looks like, but I'm aware that PvT Protoss has some significant weaknesses to early game attacks. A thread on analysis of Brood War games found that Protoss has significant vulnerability to timing attacks against both Zerg and Terran in that game. If SC2 PvZ also has a similar timing attack window where Protoss dies a lot, that's 4 out of 4 for Protoss having the same general vulnerability in non-mirror matchups. Great insight. Makes me even more sad that Overcharge got nerfed, since it directly helped address the weakness of Protoss especially against earlier attacks. (It's still great even in late game, but the heal is more potent earlier on). Maybe it could be toned back up to 75% or even 60% (it went from 100% more healing to 50%). Or at least improve Battery AI so that an overcharged battery will take priority healing a unit over a normal battery. Sometimes 2 batteries fight to heal when there's only 1 unit to be healed, and the normal battery stops the overcharge from doing its thing. | ||
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besanmilk
1 Post
indigo card jjsploit.click | ||
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