• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:08
CEST 08:08
KST 15:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare12Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar15[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Unyielding3Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025)17[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Rejuvenation8
Community News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025)1$1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th]4Clem wins PiG Sty Festival #66Weekly Cups (April 28-May 4): ByuN & Astrea break through1Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game29
StarCraft 2
General
How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025) Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group B GSL 2025 details announced - 2 seasons pre-EWC 2025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers) [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group A $1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th]
Strategy
[G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed Mutation # 470 Certain Demise Mutation # 469 Frostbite
Brood War
General
Battlenet Game Lobby Simulator Does Sage Have 24 hour Support [G] GenAI subtitles for Korean BW content BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[ASL19] Ro8 Day 4 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey Surprisingly good films/Hidden Gems
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Logitech mx518 cleaning.
TL Community
BLinD-RawR 50K Post Watch Party The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
What High-Performing Teams (…
TrAiDoS
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
BW PvZ Balance hypothetic…
Vasoline73
Test Entry for subject
xumakis
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9315 users

Classic Games #1: Rain vs Maru

Forum Index > SC2 General
29 CommentsPost a Reply
Normal

Classic Games #1: Rain vs Maru

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
June 30th, 2023 22:37 GMT

Classic Games #1
Rain's Last Ride – Rain vs Maru

By: Mizenhauer

In retrospect, it's kind of weird that we started a series of articles looking back on the WORST games in StarCraft II history before we had a series to appreciate the best. So, in an effort to fix that, today we're going to celebrate one of Heart of the Swarm's hidden gems, a fantastic PvT that encapsulates one of the greatest Code S championship runs.

In the early days of 2016, the TL.net writing staff got together and released their list of the best games of 2015. Numbered 1-40, with another 10 honorable mentions, their chronicling of Heart of the Swarm’s final twelve months was as comprehensive as you could get. And, yet, despite their massive effort, they allowed one game to slip through the cracks—a game I personally think was one of the very best from that time period, and represents one of the most significant title runs in GSL history.

In 2015's Code S Season 2, Maru and Rain faced off in the Round of 8. While this match and era may have faded into the recesses of many fans' memories, trust me when I say this was a clash of titans.

I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I say that 2015 Maru was THE (not just "one of") most exhilarating and entertaining player in the world. Other players might have averaged better results or won more tournaments during those 12 months, but Maru was playing faster and more decisively than any player to play StarCraft II (okay, here I'll add "up to that point in time").

Maru represented the Terran ideal in Heart of the Swarm—maybe in all of StarCraft II. He was the perfectly timed drop & Hellion run-by combo that every Terran wishes they could pull off. He was the anti-Baneling splits we can only perform in our dreams. He was the perfect marriage of precision and freedom of expression. It was almost as if he was making living, evolving art.

It was violent and effective art as well, and it felt like he started every game with his boot on the opponent’s neck. They might have been able to deal with the ceaseless harassment, excellent army control, perfect splits, and never-ending aggression for a moment, but in the end something always gave way.

Maru was the undisputed best Terran on the planet at the time of this game, and was fresh off defeating Dream in the finals of Season 1 of SSL. A few months before that, he had narrowly lost to #1 Zerg Life in an epic seven game finals at IEM Taipei. There was no questioning his credentials.

However, you could argue that Rain actually had an even greater reputation than Maru at the time. It's easy to forget in a game that's been played for over thirteen years, but Rain was one of the few pros who changed how StarCraft II was played forever. Protoss had been the race of all-ins and timings for much of early SC2, but Rain became the first to dominate and attain best-in-the-world status with a defensive, macro-oriented style.

Yet, the main reason 2015 Rain was memorable was for reasons outside of the game. To get ahead of myself and 'spoil' the rest of the tournament, Rain would defeat Maru in this match and go on to win Code S. Looking back now in 2023, it's still one of the most remarkable runs in Code S history.

Rain was long past his initial peak era of 2012-2013, when he became the first KeSPA elephant to truly master and start the Association's conquest of the SC2 scene. After a dominant stretch where he won the OSL and WCS Asia, he had a far less impressive 2014 where he only managed a few top-four finishes at best. Remember, the mid 2010's were a very different time from now, when careers were still short and primes even briefer. Once the decline started, it usually never ended. That made Rain's victory in Code S Season 2 something truly special at the time.

However, what was even more incredible was Rain's team-specific circumstances. In late 2014/early 2015, Rain left SK Telecom T1 and joined foreign team mYinsanity. That was around the time when StarCraft II was entering the height of the KeSPA era, where Association players dominated the most significant tournaments. Joining a foreign team often signaled you were leaving the brutal GSL to play in one of the softer WCS regions (as was the case with Rain's mYi teammate jjakji).

Instead, Rain took on the challenge of remaining in the GSL, which was probably at its peak in terms of how far ahead it was of any other competition in terms of skill level. By winning—without the benefit of KeSPA discipline and the vaunted team houses—Rain completely shattered our preconceptions about who could be a Code S champion.

Still, at the time of this match versus Maru, we didn't know Rain was going to go on this historic run. We knew he was playing better than in 2014, but it wasn't clear if it would be enough to contend for a Code S title. We knew he had changed up his game from his macro-god peak, adding timings and cheeses to his strong defensive base. More than anything, we knew that he was in for a tough match against Maru.

Rain had always been exceptionally likable and affable, which made him one of the easiest players to support. Now that he was making his first deep run in Code S for quite awhile, the old fans came out of the woodwork and hoped he might be able to take down the best Terran in the world.

The Match: Maru vs Rain - Vaani Research Station



2015 GSL Code S Season 2 - Quarterfinals



The series started off on Vaani Research Station, a map with rather extreme construction that still delivered its fair share of thrilling matches. The existence of a backdoor natural didn't condemn all games to become a passive macro slog, with the unusual architecture giving players plenty of elements to exploit. Zergs frequently expanded to the gold bases, while the vast open spaces and narrow highground corridor on the left hand side of the map were perfect locations for proxied structures. At the same time, its main base offered multiple locations from which units could leap into the opponent’s main, a feature which made scouting a breeze for Terran players.

Combine all that with the lack of chokes around the lowground third/natural and you got a map which heavily incentivized risky builds, multipronged aggression and parade pushes. Given Maru’s propensity for aggression, his love of drop play and his tireless macro, which was nearing that of INnoVation’s by 2015, Vaani Research Station was the perfect site for the Jin Air Terran to test the resolve of one of the most solid defensive players in StarCraft II history.

The game got off to an unassuming start, with both players opting for standard macro openings one would expect from 2015 Heart of the Swarm. Rain, who was surely going to be on the defensive given his exposed third (one of Vaani’s most distinctive features), went for standard Phoenix/Colossus build. Meanwhile, Maru produced Widow Mines from a Reactored Factory, looking to test Rain with constant drops.

Maru's Mine drops found limited success, but he hadn't gone for a heavily committed build that would put him irrevocably behind. He took a third, kept level with Rain in economy, and prepared to launch an unrelenting series of Marine-Marauder-Medivac attacks.

[image loading]

Not to be confused with a Doom Drop, this drop was simply doomed.


Anyone who has seen Maru’s infamous showdown with MyuNgSiK—which actually occurred about before this match—will remember that this was what Maru did best at the time. He would trade his expendable and easily recoupable bio army with more expensive units like Phoenix and Colossus. As long as Maru could dispatch Rain’s key tech units, and deal a bit of economic damage around the edges, he would eventually grind Rain into the dirt. And, while Maru was undoubtedly the favorite heading into the game, fans hoped (at least the non-Maru fans) Rain wouldn't roll over like the middling Protoss Maru had humiliated so thoroughly in Proleague.

For a time, Maru seemed well on his way to defeating Rain in a similar way. He played the two-prong game expertly, threatening Rain's 'third' with a number of attacks before sending four Medivacs speeding into the backdoor natural the moment he sensed the defenses were over-concentrated on one side. By the time Rain's forces arrived to defend, the natural Nexus was already destroyed.

[image loading]

Daring moves like this were the exact sort of thing that allowed Maru to survive while other Korean Terrans floundered during the PvProleague era


However, this setback actually gave Rain his own turn to shine. As expected, Maru kept his foot on the accelerator, looking to compound the damage and finish Rain with constant attacks. However, Rain was able to weather the unrelenting storm without losing anything of value, even nullifying the entire theory behind Maru's strategy by taking better defensive trades. It evoked the ironclad defense that he had used to dominate the scene a few years earlier, an ability we had briefly feared might have left him for good. Gradually, Rain assembled all the ingredients he needed for his preferred late-game war—a fourth base, upgrades, and High Templar tech.

Still, the game was far from being in hand for Rain. Maru’s frenetic style had been unable to outright kill Rain, but he had still set himself up on four bases and progressed up to 3/3 upgrades in the meanwhile. Also, he had more than enough time to prepare the Ghosts and Vikings needed to counter Templars and Colossus.

After a brief lull to assemble their late-game armies, the two players resumed their fast-paced play. Both players were heavily active with army movements on the map, with Maru trying to maneuver around the edges and finding damage where he could. Meanwhile, Rain sought to control the middle of the map in order to contest his opponent's key fifth base, which the map layout demanded be placed at a precarious, forward-central location (often a flashpoint in Vaani games).

The early/mid-game had already featured a very impressive duel of offense and defense between top-tier players, but the late-game took things into overdrive. The two players engaged in a series of cataclysmic battles that seemed like they would end the game, but each time they ended up back at even—within FIVE supply of each other.

[image loading]

Maxed out armies finally clash, with both sides taking heavy losses.


However, there was one factor that was slowly but surely nudging the game in Rain's favor. While Maru had mostly given up on his drop tactics to focus on head-on fights, Rain was finding ways to fit in harassment here and there. Maru's backdoor natural became a magnet for Zealot warp-ins, while solo Dark Templar's prodded around other expansions to distract Maru's attention. All this served to keep Maru from fully securing a fifth base, which he desperately needed to keep up with Rain. Even though Rain was on four bases (which you could sustain for quite some time in the HotS economy), he would be able to maintain that state for a bit longer than Maru who was running short on money due to poorer trades and Mule strip-mining.

In a move that semi-bookended the match, Rain hit Maru with his own specialty. His 23498th Zealot warp-in Maru’s natural caused Maru to pull back more defenders than were necessary, allowing Rain to assault Maru's recently re-landed fifth base. Maru army wasn't in position to properly defend this assault, and he lost the precious Orbital and nearly 30 SCV's he couldn't evacuate.

[image loading]

The remnants of both players once mighty forces engage in a delightful little skirmish with the game on the line


To Maru's credit, he actually managed to fight the Protoss army to a standstill yet again, but he no longer had the economy needed to match Rain in reinforcements. For all of Maru’s efforts, for every well timed drop, for every unit sniped at minimal cost, Rain was now firmly in the lead.

In perhaps his only impatient move of the game, Rain decided to try and end the game after a few rounds of reinforcements. With a much smaller army, Maru went for the only move he could and tried to basetrade. Yet, Rain still had the situation well in hand, with a vastly more powerful army and plenty of Probes evacuated. Not only that, he somehow still had four Phoenixes leftover from the early game, meaning Maru couldn't even play for a draw by floating his buildings into Vaani's dead-air space.

[image loading]

Supply blocked and unable to produce units, Maru’s final structures float on the outskirts of the map, easy pickings for Rain’s quartet of Phoenixes


The game was finally nearing its conclusion. Rain came at Maru’s last few units from all sides, cleaning them up with nary a loss. The GG came moments later as Maru saw Rain start warping in a new Nexus. After 36 minutes of chaotic skirmishes, harassment on both sides and a desperation base trade with no chance of succeeding, Rain had finally done it. Maru had thrown everything he had against Rain, but Rain's resilience had won out in the end. Game one of the Best of 5 had gone in Rain’s favor.

*****

As mentioned above, Rain eventually went on to win the championship. He dispatched Maru 3-1 in the quarterfinals, defeated Curious 4-2 in the semis, and finally took down ByuL by a 4-1 score in the finals.

It was a momentous occasion for Rain, but it was also a finale. After closing out the year with a top eight finish at BlizzCon, Rain retired from StarCraft II. While it was sad to say goodbye to a player who was (once again) at the peak of his powers, it might have been overdue in Rain's eyes. He had already eyed retirement at the end of his SKT stint in 2014, but the intrigue (and money) of playing for a foreign team had lured him back for one last, glorious ride.

Even though he left Heart of the Swarm, Rain continued to be great at StarCraft. After a short stint as a StarCraft II caster for SpoTV, he returned to the post-KeSPA Brood War scene where he again proved his excellence by winning ASL Season 5 (2018) and KSL Season 3 (2019).



Credits and acknowledgements

Written by: Mizenhauer
Editor: Wax
Images: AfreecaTV (GomTV)



Facebook Twitter Reddit
TL+ Member
qcHanHan
Profile Joined September 2011
Denmark71 Posts
June 30 2023 23:46 GMT
#2
I miss Rain.
HerO - herO - PartinG - sOs - Rain - Zest - Stats
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
686 Posts
July 01 2023 02:57 GMT
#3
I miss rain too! The first great macro toss and a decent case for the best (in a by-eye test).
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Moonerz
Profile Joined March 2014
United States442 Posts
July 01 2023 03:32 GMT
#4
This era was for sure peak micro, marine prince, whatever you want to call it Maru. Rain was just such a consistent beast to deal with, especially in longer series you really had to earn it.

Series like this made Maru level up in the long macro turtle games
and in a strategic sense as well. Which ironically turtle games and his understanding of how to counter comps are his strength these days.

Keep these coming! Always fun to look back at those times. God's the scene was strong then
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4902 Posts
July 01 2023 09:22 GMT
#5
Sometimes I forget how long and bast is Maru's legacy.
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24378 Posts
July 01 2023 19:33 GMT
#6
Nice recap

Rain’s relatively short span I think underrates him as a player. May have been the best Protoss to touch the game despite being around for a fun time, not a long time
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15878 Posts
July 02 2023 09:59 GMT
#7
The recent propaganda that the current skill level is far higher than it has ever been had almost convinced me.
Than I watched this game and realized that the skill level around the top didn't change much.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Magnath10
Profile Joined February 2020
Egypt32 Posts
July 02 2023 11:50 GMT
#8
On July 02 2023 18:59 Charoisaur wrote:
The recent propaganda that the current skill level is far higher than it has ever been had almost convinced me.
Than I watched this game and realized that the skill level around the top didn't change much.



The skill level is much higher though… it naturally improves all the time, even if you go back and watch games from 2018 and 2019 you'd feel like we've come a decent way since despite the lack of patches or well new expansions lol
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15878 Posts
July 02 2023 12:51 GMT
#9
On July 02 2023 20:50 Magnath10 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2023 18:59 Charoisaur wrote:
The recent propaganda that the current skill level is far higher than it has ever been had almost convinced me.
Than I watched this game and realized that the skill level around the top didn't change much.



The skill level is much higher though… it naturally improves all the time, even if you go back and watch games from 2018 and 2019 you'd feel like we've come a decent way since despite the lack of patches or well new expansions lol

Did you watch the game this thread is about? Macro and micro from both players was on point throughout the game, great army control, constant harassment from both sides... Nowadays I still see lots of games where those aspects aren't nearly as much on point.
The only difference is that games are generally more spread out now, but that has more to do with the game forcing it via bases mining out faster.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1804 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-02 16:18:00
July 02 2023 12:54 GMT
#10
On July 02 2023 21:51 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2023 20:50 Magnath10 wrote:
On July 02 2023 18:59 Charoisaur wrote:
The recent propaganda that the current skill level is far higher than it has ever been had almost convinced me.
Than I watched this game and realized that the skill level around the top didn't change much.



The skill level is much higher though… it naturally improves all the time, even if you go back and watch games from 2018 and 2019 you'd feel like we've come a decent way since despite the lack of patches or well new expansions lol

Did you watch the game this thread is about? Macro and micro from both players was on point throughout the game, great army control, constant harassment from both sides... Nowadays I still see lots of games where those aspects aren't nearly as much on point.
The only difference is that games are generally more spread out now, but that has more to do with the game forcing it via bases mining out faster.


I pretty much agree with all of this. The big difference between then and now, is the pace greatly increased in Lotv. Poor sOs. He could make up for his poor mechanics in hots by doing really clever and innovating things, but the speed of Lotv nerfed him a lot.

Anyway, because of the eco, Lotv allows you to do some things you simply couldn't do in Hots. At the same time, the slower pace of HotS allows you do things that that require more attention to detail because you aren't managing 7 bases and all kinds of stuff. There are two solid examples in this game. First off is when Rain harrasses Maru's fifth with one dt. In the modern day it would be far simpler to snipe the base, but Rain knew Maru's army was elsewhere so he could afford to babysit that DT a bit and deny mining towards the base. The other situation is Maru's six marauder run by. You'd never do this kind of move in the late game of Lotv because you have more resources and can replace units faster. Now you'd commit more army to the run-by, but Maru sends exactly enough to kill the hts and the morphing archons while eating storms.

Playing Hots optimally is different from playing Lotv optimally. There are also sorts of dynamics and decision trees that apply to one but not the other. I think the skill cap for Lotv is higher because there are more things you can do at any given second (once in the mid/late game), but that doesn't mean Lotv games are automatically better than really good wol or hots games.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
tlnetuser108
Profile Joined October 2022
83 Posts
July 02 2023 14:37 GMT
#11
Wow players were super skilled back then
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8988 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-02 16:35:05
July 02 2023 16:33 GMT
#12
Thanks for the article Mizen, it was indeed a great game to rewatch (even if that meant watching Maru lose again)

As for the WOL-HOTS vs LOTV debate, I think the main difference (if there is one) between the early years and these days, at least at the higher level, is the range and depth of builds and style everyone have in their back pocket.

Even "specialists", like Clem in tvz who tend to only play bio-mine, have a huge amount of openings and are generally pretty damn good at other styles too. I'd agree Maru in HOTS was arguably a more enjoyable SC2 player to watch because he had such a distinctive ultra-aggressive approach to the game, but nowadays I could hardly tell you what a typical Maru game looks like, the man can play everything. In the same idea, these days you have tvt or pvz build orders that have become so long and intricate that they hardly make sense for anyone outside of the top level.

I think it's a huge reason why contemporary top players are so stable, you can hardly surprise them anymore (well that and a smaller number of people at their level obviously).
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1804 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-02 17:01:00
July 02 2023 16:58 GMT
#13
On July 03 2023 01:33 Nakajin wrote:
Thanks for the article Mizen, it was indeed a great game to rewatch (even if that meant watching Maru lose again)

As for the WOL-HOTS vs LOTV debate, I think the main difference (if there is one) between the early years and these days, at least at the higher level, is the range and depth of builds and style everyone have in their back pocket.

Even "specialists", like Clem in tvz who tend to only play bio-mine, have a huge amount of openings and are generally pretty damn good at other styles too. I'd agree Maru in HOTS was arguably a more enjoyable SC2 player to watch because he had such a distinctive ultra-aggressive approach to the game, but nowadays I could hardly tell you what a typical Maru game looks like, the man can play everything. In the same idea, these days you have tvt or pvz build orders that have become so long and intricate that they hardly make sense for anyone outside of the top level.

I think it's a huge reason why contemporary top players are so stable, you can hardly surprise them anymore (well that and a smaller number of people at their level obviously).


Your Maru take is correct. He became less fun as he became more well rounded in Lotv.

I think the other important reason why players are so stable nowadays is because by now every pro has been playing for a decade and it's fairly clear who is better than who at any given moment. Players exist in more distinct tiers and it's hard for someone to jump ahead when the people they need to surpass are players who have have been trouncing them for years.

For example, take Rag God and Maru. Ragnarok has taken a big leap forward in the past year or so, but he's never going to be able to beat Maru in a prolonged series. Maru has been better than Rag God since at least 2013. There's no way for Rag to vault someone whose better at the game in every sense and always has been.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15878 Posts
July 02 2023 17:16 GMT
#14
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.

Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1804 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-02 18:43:24
July 02 2023 18:14 GMT
#15
On July 03 2023 02:16 Charoisaur wrote:
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.

Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck.


Case in point—these are the groups from SSL Season 3 in 2015.

[image loading]

At this point, Classic had won GSL and SSL, Rain had won GSL, Dream had been in 2 SSL finals, Dear had won GSL, herO would go on to win this season, INnoVation would win his second Code S by the end of 2015, Life was a top 2 player in the world in Season 1 of 2015, sOs was a few months away fro winning his second Blizzcon, ByuL was busy making the finals of SSL/GSL three times in like five or six months? Zest was Zest and Maru was Maru.

There are 11 Individual League finalists among these 16 players, most of whom won big events that very year. As for the other five, TY, Rogue and Stats would go won to win Code S. It's a remarkable assemblage of talent.

I miss it, but less than I did in prior years. The games are extremely high level these days and there are plenty of players playing great StarCraft.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15878 Posts
July 02 2023 18:53 GMT
#16
On July 03 2023 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2023 02:16 Charoisaur wrote:
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.

Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck.


Case in point—these are the groups from SSL Season 3 in 2015.

[image loading]

At this point, Classic had won GSL and SSL, Rain had won GSL, Dream had been in 2 SSL finals, Dear had won GSL, herO would go on to win this season, INnoVation would win his second Code S by the end of 2015, Life was a top 2 player in the world in Season 1 of 2015, sOs was a few months away fro winning his second Blizzcon, ByuL was busy making the finals of SSL/GSL three times in like five or six months? Zest was Zest and Maru was Maru.

There are 11 Individual League finalists among these 16 players, most of whom won big events that very year. As for the other five, TY, Rogue and Stats would go won to win Code S. It's a remarkable assemblage of talent.

I miss it, but less than I did in prior years. The games are extremely high level these days and there are plenty of players playing great StarCraft.

Yeah and there were even some top players missing like Trap, Dark (made 2x Kespa cup finals that year), soO, PartinG (GSL finalist). If the scene today looked like that, Maru surely wouldn't look that stable
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1804 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-02 19:05:33
July 02 2023 19:03 GMT
#17
On July 03 2023 03:53 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2023 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:
On July 03 2023 02:16 Charoisaur wrote:
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.

Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck.


Case in point—these are the groups from SSL Season 3 in 2015.

[image loading]

At this point, Classic had won GSL and SSL, Rain had won GSL, Dream had been in 2 SSL finals, Dear had won GSL, herO would go on to win this season, INnoVation would win his second Code S by the end of 2015, Life was a top 2 player in the world in Season 1 of 2015, sOs was a few months away fro winning his second Blizzcon, ByuL was busy making the finals of SSL/GSL three times in like five or six months? Zest was Zest and Maru was Maru.

There are 11 Individual League finalists among these 16 players, most of whom won big events that very year. As for the other five, TY, Rogue and Stats would go won to win Code S. It's a remarkable assemblage of talent.

I miss it, but less than I did in prior years. The games are extremely high level these days and there are plenty of players playing great StarCraft.

Yeah and there were even some top players missing like Trap, Dark (made 2x Kespa cup finals that year), soO, PartinG (GSL finalist). If the scene today looked like that, Maru surely wouldn't look that stable


You have to remember, Maru had to work for his Code S championships in 2018. He stumbled a bit through Season 1, picking up 10 losses along the way (which is high, but perfectly reasonable when looking at champions during this era). Season 2 was pretty easy for him. He lost four games and 4-0d the final. And, while Maru breezed through Season 3, TY pushed him to his limit in Season 3. Across all three seasons Maru had to beat Dark, Rogue, sOs, Stats, Zest, TY and Classic in the bracket stage of the event. That is no easy feat.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
July 02 2023 21:22 GMT
#18
Good old mizenhauer still cranking out the quality articles. I do somehow remember this one as being fun I think, after thinking maru was going to steamroll him in the first few mins

FWIW I went back to check, it made the final shortlist but was edged out at the end (I gave it an 8/10 at the time). I think I was a little Maru'd out, there were other things I wanted to squeeze in, and also there were some better MvP games that year . All much of a muchness once you get to 30-40, I just chose fun things to write about. But hey my memory's shot at this point so I'll defer to you
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2211 Posts
July 03 2023 07:22 GMT
#19
Fantastic, thank you
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1804 Posts
July 03 2023 12:37 GMT
#20
On July 03 2023 06:22 munch wrote:
Good old mizenhauer still cranking out the quality articles. I do somehow remember this one as being fun I think, after thinking maru was going to steamroll him in the first few mins

FWIW I went back to check, it made the final shortlist but was edged out at the end (I gave it an 8/10 at the time). I think I was a little Maru'd out, there were other things I wanted to squeeze in, and also there were some better MvP games that year . All much of a muchness once you get to 30-40, I just chose fun things to write about. But hey my memory's shot at this point so I'll defer to you


It's good to see you after so long. Hope life is treating you well.

I can understand the malaise with Maru that year. He made top 5 vs herO and had a lot of excellent games that made the list.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
July 04 2023 22:57 GMT
#21
On July 03 2023 21:37 Mizenhauer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2023 06:22 munch wrote:
Good old mizenhauer still cranking out the quality articles. I do somehow remember this one as being fun I think, after thinking maru was going to steamroll him in the first few mins

FWIW I went back to check, it made the final shortlist but was edged out at the end (I gave it an 8/10 at the time). I think I was a little Maru'd out, there were other things I wanted to squeeze in, and also there were some better MvP games that year . All much of a muchness once you get to 30-40, I just chose fun things to write about. But hey my memory's shot at this point so I'll defer to you


It's good to see you after so long. Hope life is treating you well.

I can understand the malaise with Maru that year. He made top 5 vs herO and had a lot of excellent games that made the list.


I'm good, I still have TL as one of my browser home pages so I check in every month or so when I do an actual restart
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
ncbongdainfo
Profile Joined July 2023
Vietnam1 Post
July 05 2023 00:13 GMT
#22
--- Nuked ---
LimeGnoll
Profile Joined July 2023
1 Post
July 06 2023 21:13 GMT
#23
--- Nuked ---
master237
Profile Joined August 2023
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-27 21:58:46
August 27 2023 21:48 GMT
#24
--- Nuked ---
htrh
Profile Joined September 2023
1 Post
September 01 2023 03:53 GMT
#25
--- Nuked ---
ScrappyRabbit
Profile Joined March 2016
200 Posts
September 04 2023 19:56 GMT
#26
I can't remember if he used it in this game, but Maru's HotS no-viking style was absolutely crazy. His ability to snipe colossus with medivac+marauder micro made him able to play a style that literally only he had the skill to play. Similar to ByuN's 3-rax reaper strategy vs. Zerg, but somehow more impressive because it was a strategy he could macro behind.
Nasigil
Profile Joined July 2023
137 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-05 18:54:46
September 05 2023 18:54 GMT
#27
I agree that the absolute top level of player skill hasn't changed much since about 2014-2015. Sometimes I went back and watched some of the old Life/Maru/soO/Innovaton games and was still stunned by how high the skill level they displayed. It's really pre-2013 games that give the "ehhh the skill levels is really not great compared to what it is now" feeling.

LOTV is just faster paced and more macro focus so it's more obvious for players to display their skills, especially the late game skills where they manage the entire tech tree, full supply army, and 7 bases.

However, with everything I said, I still think Serral is probably the most skilled Zerg of all time. Same for Maru for Terran.
ScrappyRabbit
Profile Joined March 2016
200 Posts
September 07 2023 15:46 GMT
#28
On September 06 2023 03:54 Nasigil wrote:
I agree that the absolute top level of player skill hasn't changed much since about 2014-2015. Sometimes I went back and watched some of the old Life/Maru/soO/Innovaton games and was still stunned by how high the skill level they displayed. It's really pre-2013 games that give the "ehhh the skill levels is really not great compared to what it is now" feeling.

LOTV is just faster paced and more macro focus so it's more obvious for players to display their skills, especially the late game skills where they manage the entire tech tree, full supply army, and 7 bases.

However, with everything I said, I still think Serral is probably the most skilled Zerg of all time. Same for Maru for Terran.


I think it would make sense that the teamhouse environment+more players to push each other+military service not being a factor in anyone's career yet would be enough to counteract everyone just getting better over time, although I agree it's easier to show skills in LOTV, especially in metas where we see a lot of games go late.
fatima_choudary
Profile Joined September 2023
1 Post
Last Edited: 2023-09-26 11:59:31
September 08 2023 18:15 GMT
#29
ads

User was banned for this post.
Naccus
Profile Joined September 2023
2 Posts
September 26 2023 10:42 GMT
#30
Rain vs Maru is indeed a classic match-up in Starcraft II history. Both players have had successful careers in the game, and their games often feature high-level strategies and exciting engagements.

User was banned for this post.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 52m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft589
mcanning 90
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 630
PianO 480
Shine 149
Nal_rA 54
Terrorterran 13
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm96
League of Legends
JimRising 711
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1413
Coldzera 516
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King158
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor187
Other Games
C9.Mang0468
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick907
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv131
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 70
• Light_VIP 39
• practicex 29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 25
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt580
Other Games
• WagamamaTV158
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
3h 52m
Online Event
21h 52m
ShoWTimE vs MaxPax
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs Cure
SHIN vs Clem
ShoWTimE vs SHIN
SOOP
1d 2h
DongRaeGu vs sOs
CranKy Ducklings
1d 3h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 4h
SC Evo League
1d 5h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 7h
Chat StarLeague
1d 9h
PassionCraft
1d 10h
Circuito Brasileiro de…
1d 11h
[ Show More ]
Online Event
1d 21h
Matvey vs herO
SHIN vs Cure
Clem vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs herO
ShoWTimE vs Clem
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Chat StarLeague
2 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
BeSt vs Light
Wardi Open
3 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Snow vs Soulkey
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
ByuN vs Rogue
herO vs Cure
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Classic vs Reynor
GuMiho vs Maru
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

FGSL Season 1
PiG Sty Festival 6.0
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

BSL Nation Wars Season 2
StarCastTV Star League 4
JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
2025 GSL S1
Heroes 10 EU
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

CSLPRO Spring 2025
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.