EPTThe timeline isn't very coherent tbh
What's the correct order of naming the three races of Star…
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datastuff
31 Posts
The timeline isn't very coherent tbh | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1853 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On April 24 2023 00:42 zatic wrote: I mean Protoss live for hundreds of years, so "countless" of generations can easily be 100 000 years and more. From the Khala to present day is pretty recent, yes, so ~2500 years seems about right. But before that the Protoss history can easily stretch for longer than humanity existed. Sure, it can, but why should it? On April 24 2023 09:39 Mizenhauer wrote: Bootleg Tyranids, Ripped Off Space Elves (Eldar, Aeldari, take your pick), Imperial Guard on Drugs. I've heard people saying that StarCraft ripped of Warhammer 40k a lot, but I've never really gotten a bead on how? Other than both having Starship Troopers and Alien influences, I've found most of the commonalities pretty superficial? Though to be honest, I don't know that much about 40k, I only played a bit of Warhammer Original Flavour back in High School, and some Warhammer Total War. On April 24 2023 10:26 Malongo wrote: Well I'm surprised the amount of knowledge about the Starcraft Universe. I was a lore nerd for a decade before I saw my first professional game. I used to do this ranting on SCLegacy, but that site's been down for a while, so I'm taking this opportunity instead :D. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1853 Posts
On April 26 2023 11:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Sure, it can, but why should it? I've heard people saying that StarCraft ripped of Warhammer 40k a lot, but I've never really gotten a bead on how? Other than both having Starship Troopers and Alien influences, I've found most of the commonalities pretty superficial? Though to be honest, I don't know that much about 40k, I only played a bit of Warhammer Original Flavour back in High School, and some Warhammer Total War. I was a lore nerd for a decade before I saw my first professional game. I used to do this ranting on SCLegacy, but that site's been down for a while, so I'm taking this opportunity instead :D. Blizz has an awkward history with games workshop. The art style of Warcraft was heavily influenced by GW (you weren't seeing buff greenskinned orcs anywhere else at the time) and they actually wanted to obtain a license for Warhammer in order to give warcraft more commercial appeal. As for StarCraft II, the races are pretty blatant copies of Warhammer 40k factions. The Zerg are insectoid aliens rules by a hive mind that biologically adapt in the same manner Tyranids do and often biological weapons/claws just like them. Protoss are just space elves. The Eldar in W40k were a long lived very powerful, prideful and advanced race that incited an apocalypses of their own making. Since then they are less plentiful and less in number and often butt heads with the younger species. The depiction of Terrans as sort of down on their luck space cowboys who are largely expendable is incredibly like the imperial guard. Is there an issue, but there's no point wasting space marine lives on it? Just throw millions of regular humans at the issue and something will happen. (there's also stuff to get into about the old ones, war in the heaven, c tan etc being very similar to the starcraft lore that takes place earlier in that timeline) The end result is two of Blizzard's first three big ip's are heavily influenced (aka copied) from Games Workshop. But Warhammer/W40k are just richer better stories than WC and definitely SC. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1153 Posts
On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote: Blizz has an awkward history with games workshop. The art style of Warcraft was heavily influenced by GW (you weren't seeing buff greenskinned orcs anywhere else at the time) and they actually wanted to obtain a license for Warhammer in order to give warcraft more commercial appeal. As for StarCraft II, the races are pretty blatant copies of Warhammer 40k factions. The Zerg are insectoid aliens rules by a hive mind that biologically adapt in the same manner Tyranids do and often biological weapons/claws just like them. Protoss are just space elves. The Eldar in W40k were a long lived very powerful, prideful and advanced race that incited an apocalypses of their own making. Since then they are less plentiful and less in number and often butt heads with the younger species. The depiction of Terrans as sort of down on their luck space cowboys who are largely expendable is incredibly like the imperial guard. Is there an issue, but there's no point wasting space marine lives on it? Just throw millions of regular humans at the issue and something will happen. (there's also stuff to get into about the old ones, war in the heaven, c tan etc being very similar to the starcraft lore that takes place earlier in that timeline) The end result is two of Blizzard's first three big ip's are heavily influenced (aka copied) from Games Workshop. But Warhammer/W40k are just richer better stories than WC and definitely SC. I give you "influenced", but "copied"? Come on. Yes, Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game, they didn't get the license so instead they made their own thing - and I'm pretty sure whoever said "no" to that license deal is still getting tortured in the chambers of GW because holy shit did that dude fuck up. Warcraft and all that came afterwards always dwarved WH Fantasy by a mile. WC2 waws already heavily leaving the Warhammer train, while WC3 completly lost it and fully developed into their own thing, including a completly different way on how the world is build. And don't get me started on WoW. As for Starcraft: Sure, there are influences from WH40K (which I adore btw), but again...copied? Yes, all three races have somewhat counterparts in the 40K-universe, but they mostly operate completly different and developed even further away from it with SC2. There were definetly other influences as well, the most obvious one of course being the Alien-franchise. And finally...maybe Warhammer (40K) has a better lore, but better story? Not really. Especially since they still haven't managed to succesfully bring those stories into multimedia. Don't get me wrong, Gaunts Ghosts for example is one of the best book series I have ever read...but that's it, it is limited to books. Warcraft and Starcraft however brought those stories to life through videogames (and of course the fantastic cinematics), a feat GW will probably never achieve. Warhammer is all about the freedom, making your own stories, maybe tying them into a greater lore. But Starcraft/Warcraft is about telling epic stories that are based in a lore that had to be figured out over the decades. At that point it is about preference, but I for one would take the WC3 Arthas campaigns alone over anything ever presented story-wise in gaming. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote: Blizz has an awkward history with games workshop. The art style of Warcraft was heavily influenced by GW (you weren't seeing buff greenskinned orcs anywhere else at the time) and they actually wanted to obtain a license for Warhammer in order to give warcraft more commercial appeal. This I know, but while Warhammer 40k is an obvious extrapolation of original Warhammer, StarCraft is not a space version of WarCraft. The Warhammer influences on WarCraft do not translate. On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote:As for StarCraft II, the races are pretty blatant copies of Warhammer 40k factions. The Zerg are insectoid aliens rules by a hive mind that biologically adapt in the same manner Tyranids do and often biological weapons/claws just like them. That's just the bugs from Starship Troopers. StarCraft's influence from Starship Troopers (and Alien) actually is extremely blatant, the similarities to Tyranids are likely coincidence from Games Workshop also lifting from Starship Troopers (and Alien). I mean come on, "Games Workshop Zerg" looked like this in 1998. Zerg definitely got their looks from Starship Troopers, not Games Workshop, and since they also share the same characterisation, it's much more reasonable to assume that Starship Troopers influenced that as well. On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote:Protoss are just space elves. The Eldar in W40k were a long lived very powerful, prideful and advanced race that incited an apocalypses of their own making. Since then they are less plentiful and less in number and often butt heads with the younger species. Protoss are not in any way space elves. Tolkien-derived elves, as appear in Warhammer, are an ancient and fading race. It's arguable how old Protoss are, as we've been doing in this thread, I place their very species as younger than human written word, and the current Khalai culture as about as old as France. And they're not a faded species. If they're currently on a downturn following the Zerg invasion of Aiur, there is no indication that this is an intrinsic or irreversible direction, and they were established in original StarCraft as the most powerful species in existence, at the height of their power, to the point that even the Overmind despaired of finding a way to overcome them. Even in Legacy of the Void, Amon is using the Golden Armada to basically wipe out all life in the Sector. To the extent of my understanding of 40k lore, the faction that most resembles the Protoss is actually the Imperium of Man, the most recently dominant power in the galaxy, now crumbling due to a combination of alien invasion and internal strife, melding politics and religion to create a stagnant state of politics where disagreement with the state authority is hounded down as heresy, protected by a bio-engineered caste of super-warriors who still think using melee weapons is a good idea and so grotesquely overpowered that they can actually pull it off. On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote:The depiction of Terrans as sort of down on their luck space cowboys who are largely expendable is incredibly like the imperial guard. Is there an issue, but there's no point wasting space marine lives on it? Just throw millions of regular humans at the issue and something will happen. That's an exceptionally flimsy description. Expendable human soldiers is not an idea nearly unique enough to rip-off, even in space. I'm also surprised to see them described as cowboys, I thought they were more comparable to WW2 armies in space. But also, trying to use the Imperial Guard without contextualising them within the larger frame of Warhammer 40k humanity is misleading. Terran stories focus on rebels, outlaws and frontiersmen, and appeals to libertarian fantasies of self-made men on the fringes of society fighting to protect their freedom from the government. Warhammer 40k is set firmly within the central conceit of an impossibly ancient, unchanging, uncaring fascist empire. The strongest Terran government in the Koprulu Sector has been overthrown and replaced four times in the fiveish years since the StarCraft story started. On April 27 2023 00:08 Mizenhauer wrote:The end result is two of Blizzard's first three big ip's are heavily influenced (aka copied) from Games Workshop. But Warhammer/W40k are just richer better stories than WC and definitely SC. It might be that Warhammer stories are better, I haven't read any, my love for StarCraft lore derives massively from the fact that I was very young when I first played it, and all its concepts were very novel to me. I had never seen Starship Troopers, or Alien, or even Star Trek so it was a lot of new, exciting discoveries. That said. there's still a lot to be valued in the stories and lore of StarCraft, especially in how they work to mix the story and gameplay. Terran I, Rebel Yell, is by far the best use of story in an RTS campaign I have ever seen. As for Warhammer, one thing that annoys me in the fantasy game is that Games Workshop seem to be waffling on whether they want to play it as straight-faced fantasy or satire, and I get the same feeling from 40k, which has always kept me from approaching it. The only races I enjoy in original Warhammer are the ones I can describe with the opening "These are the dumbest shit you've ever seen because...", and that currently only applies to Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, High Elves, Dark Elves, Greenskins and Skaven. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
Really, 40k is what you get if you apply the rule of cool to as much shit as possible, turn everything up to 11, and then try your best to make the resulting mess work as a semi-coherent body of lore. It's awesome. I agree that apart from bits of art direction (pauldrons!) there's not much commonality between 40k and Starcraft. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On April 27 2023 02:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: That said. there's still a lot to be valued in the stories and lore of StarCraft, especially in how they work to mix the story and gameplay. Terran I, Rebel Yell, is by far the best use of story in an RTS campaign I have ever seen. Agreed, the original StarCraft campaigns and the backstory are exemplary writing in gaming history. Just absolutely fantastic storytelling. | ||
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breaker1328
Canada295 Posts
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Vision_
861 Posts
Why only hydralisks are so much more expensive in starcraft 2 than in BW ? | ||
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