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United States33374 Posts
Gamers8, a multi-game esports festival held in Riyadh by the Saudi Esports Federation, announced that it is adding StarCraft II and Brood War to its games line-up.
While there are few details at the moment, the total prize pool has been announced at $500,000 combined for both games. According to a preview video, the SC2/BW main events are set to be held during August 3-6 (Gamers8 is held for around two months, starting in July).
ESL's StarCraft II product manager Alex007 has clarified that there will be no EPT points awarded by this event.
Qualifiers for the StarCraft II portion of the event will be held online during April 14-23 through the Gamers Without Borders tournament, another affiliated event of the Saudi Esports Federation. The qualifiers will be split into Korea/EPT, with 12 players competing per region. Of the 12 players, 8 will qualify for the main event at Gamers8 (16 total).
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They *might* have $400k for Starcraft 2, and $100k for Broodwar
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Canada8989 Posts
Between this and SCBoy, 2023's gonna end up with the biggest prize pool in years.
Give me that sweet sweet Saudi Prince PR money.
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Alright which Saudi Prince is a secret TL user?
Also:
On March 28 2023 03:17 argonautdice wrote:
The year is 2023. Starcraft 2 is literally only running on Saudi oil money and Chinese gacha games.
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Glad about SC2 getting some love, but really don't like where the money for this is coming from.
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First it was China's turn to bankroll everything and now it's MBS' turn but with equal or a whole lot more "look at us we're not evil" intentions behind it
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Does MBS's visit to China recently has to do with the announcement? Oliveria/TIME's winning picture above somehow made me think that he managed to convince XJP cough***
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www.youtube.com
Saudi Arabia is the world's largest arms importer ( ~11% of all global arms imports ), the United States is their top supplier (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute).
22% of the Saudi population lives below the poverty line ( Saudi Journal of Medicine, 2017 ).
~233,000 people have been killed due the Saudi "intervention" in Yemen ( Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project ).
The United Nations has described the situation in Yemen as the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with millions of people suffering from hunger, disease, and displacement.
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Good ol' sportswashing, now with more esports.
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with this type of dough, esl really should reward ept points for this, this tournament arguably going to be bigger than katowice/world championship this year.
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France12840 Posts
Bad location, nice prizepool though
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Wow absolutely amazing news. With the EPT decrease this is now the most important event of the year.
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Ehhhh, great for the players but feeling rather conflicted about this one. The world is a complicated place.
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Dang, that looks like an incredible tournament. All we could have dreamed of, but then in Saudi. Still, I'm excited for the pros that there is some future for them yet!
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 30 2023 04:24 JJH777 wrote:
Wow absolutely amazing news. With the EPT decrease this is now the most important event of the year.
It is kind of hilarious that the Saudi State investment fund reduced the EPT prize pool while at the same time putting money somewhere else to make the biggest event of the year, and somehow this tournament won't have any EPT points awarded to it.
I know these decision are not linked, but still, you gotta welcome the obsurdity.
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UNEXPECTED!! Good news.
On March 30 2023 01:27 lepricon1992 wrote:
They *might* have $400k for Starcraft 2, and $100k for Broodwar
It's other way around! That prince who funded is for sure FlaSh or Bisu fanboy.
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Damn, awesome!! If it's split half half, this is enough money for a (lower end) world championship!
Hoping a lot of pros can take some money so help sustain them, though I guess for many it might only just cover their travel costs. I hope the prize distribution won't be super top heavy, 1st place shouldn't make more than 2x 2nd place.
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Obviously the pros do what they want but I’m not jumping up and down from joy for a tournament organized by ”Saudi Esports Federation”.
Also lol at the ad having zero resemblance of Brood War, maybe the prize pool will be split 10:1 in favor of SC2.
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What if the StarCraft scene ends up just being a bunch of Saudi and Chinese tournaments, and nothing else! Would we still be fans!
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this is amazing! i hope they're putting good money into production quality, too!
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Why this year?
Don't take me wrong, I am happy to see SC2 & BW joining a big tournament, but I am confused.
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On March 30 2023 02:38 cesmin wrote:www.youtube.comSaudi Arabia is the world's largest arms importer ( ~11% of all global arms imports ), the United States is their top supplier (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). 22% of the Saudi population lives below the poverty line ( Saudi Journal of Medicine, 2017 ). ~233,000 people have been killed due the Saudi "intervention" in Yemen ( Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project ). The United Nations has described the situation in Yemen as the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with millions of people suffering from hunger, disease, and displacement.
So we should feel the same way about any tournaments in the USA, right? We should be posting things like everyone has posted in this thread every time the USA has a tournament, right?
Let's just appreciate that Starcraft is alive and well in 2023 and leave the politics somewhere else, okay?
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United States33374 Posts
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others.
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Okay, if you don't want to consider that perfectly logical comparison, that's fine.
Can we still leave politics out of SC? It might shock some people but I actually want to watch and play starcraft without engaging in geopolitics. Is that so much to ask? That we can just shut up about politics for two seconds?
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Yiikes. Well thats awesome yet... Difficult to maintain blissful ignorance over the giant elephant
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On March 30 2023 08:47 NyxNax wrote:
Yiikes. Well thats awesome yet... Difficult to maintain blissful ignorance over the giant elephant
players/spectators who did not take vaccine being barred from competition?
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On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
It's the standard response when people experience cognitive dissonance (i.e. "I am a good person, yet I support an organisation with an atrocious human rights record").
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Anyone know the vaccine mandates for the country? Will someone without a COVID booster be able to participate?
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On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others.
Actually I think selective outrage is the far more comical thing (if you're in the US you'll know what I mean since the culture war seems to center around it). People choose to virtue signal on some issues while turning a blind eye to far worse things. It is absolutely fair game to call out hypocrites that don't realize their own cognitive dissonance (as long as they're actually equivalent, I hate these out of touch comparisons eg between anything the US has done which isn't remotely close to China/Russia's human rights abuses).
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United States33374 Posts
On March 30 2023 09:40 luxon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others. Actually I think selective outrage is the far more comical thing (if you're in the US you'll know what I mean since the culture war seems to center around it). People choose to virtue signal on some issues while turning a blind eye to far worse things. It is absolutely fair game to call out hypocrites that don't realize their own cognitive dissonance (as long as they're actually equivalent, I hate these out of touch comparisons eg between anything the US has done which isn't remotely close to China/Russia's human rights abuses).
Sure, call stuff out all you want (I also find this amusing at times but have come to care less if stuff is "performative" or "cringe" or whatever).
Just as long as you're doing it to point people toward what you think is more effective action, not dissuading people into doing nothing at all 
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On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others.
Ethical consumption is basically impossible and you can't exist without some hypocrisy. That being said, where people decide to draw the line says a lot about their priorities/biases.
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Now we all just need North Korea to announce an 300k usd event to complete the world tour.
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On March 30 2023 10:07 tigera6 wrote:
Now we all just need North Korea to announce an 300k usd event to complete the world tour.
you joke but i can almost guarantee north koreans play/played starcraft and something like this happening wouldn't even surprise me.
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Amazing news for the scene, hopefully this gives the Korean players more incentive to keep practicing.
Also, ranting politics on a videogame forum doesn't make the world a better place for anyone, but I guess certain people just have to showcase their smug sense of moral superiority somewhere. 
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On March 30 2023 08:14 Telephone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 02:38 cesmin wrote:www.youtube.comSaudi Arabia is the world's largest arms importer ( ~11% of all global arms imports ), the United States is their top supplier (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). 22% of the Saudi population lives below the poverty line ( Saudi Journal of Medicine, 2017 ). ~233,000 people have been killed due the Saudi "intervention" in Yemen ( Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project ). The United Nations has described the situation in Yemen as the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with millions of people suffering from hunger, disease, and displacement. So we should feel the same way about any tournaments in the USA, right? We should be posting things like everyone has posted in this thread every time the USA has a tournament, right? Let's just appreciate that Starcraft is alive and well in 2023 and leave the politics somewhere else, okay?
It's funny that you think politics aren't involved until someone notices.
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On March 30 2023 08:46 Telephone wrote:
Okay, if you don't want to consider that perfectly logical comparison, that's fine.
Can we still leave politics out of SC? It might shock some people but I actually want to watch and play starcraft without engaging in geopolitics. Is that so much to ask? That we can just shut up about politics for two seconds?
you are free at any time to ignore all posts you deem "political" and instead post your "nonpolitical" thoughts on starcraft. no clue why this requires you to police what others care to discuss. 
On March 30 2023 10:15 yht9657 wrote:Amazing news for the scene, hopefully this gives the Korean players more incentive to keep practicing. Also, ranting politics on a videogame forum doesn't make the world a better place for anyone, but I guess certain people just have to showcase their smug sense of moral superiority somewhere. indeed! i'm sure there's nothing smug or superior to the intent of your post!
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On March 30 2023 05:50 outscar wrote:UNEXPECTED!! Good news. Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 01:27 lepricon1992 wrote:
They *might* have $400k for Starcraft 2, and $100k for Broodwar It's other way around! That prince who funded is for sure FlaSh or Bisu fanboy.
Hell, lets have BW players compete in SC2 and SC2 players compete in BW and see who does better, set 50k prize goal for that.
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On March 30 2023 11:38 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 05:50 outscar wrote:UNEXPECTED!! Good news. On March 30 2023 01:27 lepricon1992 wrote:
They *might* have $400k for Starcraft 2, and $100k for Broodwar It's other way around! That prince who funded is for sure FlaSh or Bisu fanboy. Hell, lets have BW players compete in SC2 and SC2 players compete in BW and see who does better, set 50k prize goal for that.
Let's not repeat that season of Proleague, please :p.
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Belgium9947 Posts
If that split comes out even close to even this might be the biggest prizepool BW event ever organized. Pretty crazy. I hope they announce qualifier format soon
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BW?
It's amazing to see that BW is also included！
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51446 Posts
On March 30 2023 12:01 RaGe wrote:
If that split comes out even close to even this might be the biggest prizepool BW event ever organized. Pretty crazy. I hope they announce qualifier format soon
A chinese tournament, a crowdfunded Afreeca BJ tournament and numerous OSL/MSL's have had 100k prize pools (after conversion). Either way, it's a pleasant surprise to see.
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On March 30 2023 12:01 RaGe wrote:
If that split comes out even close to even this might be the biggest prizepool BW event ever organized. Pretty crazy. I hope they announce qualifier format soon
I think it was stated somewhere, that it might be invites only, but could be mistaken.
Hope it is going to be qualifiers though.
To people that are upset about the politics aspect in this thread:
The biggest reason we get this tournament, is actually politics, this is sportswashing and everyone should be aware of it.
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If it wasn't for politics the IP Rights fiasco between Blizzard and KeSPa would've never happened all those years ago lol. Like someone else said earlier ethical consumption is impossible these days but drawing your line in the sand with whataboutism in regards to the US or EU as a defense for Saudi Arabia sportswashing their actively bad choices away, is ridiculous. Even if things are bad in one place that doesn't mean you don't get to call out bad things elsewhere!!
The poverty line isn't fixed globally, its higher in Toronto than it is in Saudia Arabia by like 40%.
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United States33374 Posts
On March 30 2023 16:08 Master of DalK wrote:If it wasn't for politics the IP Rights fiasco between Blizzard and KeSPa would've never happened all those years ago lol. Like someone else said earlier ethical consumption is impossible these days but drawing your line in the sand with whataboutism in regards to the US or EU as a defense for Saudi Arabia sportswashing their actively bad choices away, is ridiculous. The poverty line isn't fixed globally, its higher in Toronto than it is in Saudia Arabia by like 40%.
Hey, just don't engage in these country-country comparisons. Regardless of who's "right" or "wrong", it centers morality on nationalism, which is problematic in many ways. Your country's moral deficiencies shouldn't prevent you from calling out the problems in another country, nor should you blindly defend your motherland .
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On March 30 2023 16:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 16:08 Master of DalK wrote:If it wasn't for politics the IP Rights fiasco between Blizzard and KeSPa would've never happened all those years ago lol. Like someone else said earlier ethical consumption is impossible these days but drawing your line in the sand with whataboutism in regards to the US or EU as a defense for Saudi Arabia sportswashing their actively bad choices away, is ridiculous. The poverty line isn't fixed globally, its higher in Toronto than it is in Saudia Arabia by like 40%. Hey, just don't engage in these country-country comparisons. Regardless of who's "right" or "wrong", it centers morality on nationalism, which is problematic in many ways. Your country's moral deficiencies shouldn't prevent you from calling out the problems in another country, nor should you blindly defend your motherland .
I probably shouldn't have started posting about this after being awake for 30 hours and stuck on a plane, that's the point I was trying to make but didn't do a good job at communicating lmao
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China6329 Posts
On March 30 2023 02:18 Master of DalK wrote:
First it was China's turn to bankroll everything and now it's MBS' turn but with equal or a whole lot more "look at us we're not evil" intentions behind it
Hey don't drag us into this at least Xiaose sold his dignity for money from just normal businesses.
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On March 30 2023 04:25 Glorfindelio wrote:
Ehhhh, great for the players but feeling rather conflicted about this one. The world is a complicated place.
ESL is owned by Saudi Arabia. At this point, with or without this tournament, eSports heavily relies on Saudi Arabian money. Here it's just much more out in the open compared to other events. I'm not sure this is worse than other events though.
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On March 30 2023 19:15 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 04:25 Glorfindelio wrote:
Ehhhh, great for the players but feeling rather conflicted about this one. The world is a complicated place. ESL is owned by Saudi Arabia. At this point, with or without this tournament, eSports heavily relies on Saudi Arabian money. Here it's just much more out in the open compared to other events. I'm not sure this is worse than other events though.
Ethics are for people that can't afford anything else - truly depressing reality we live in. Another sad thing is that outside of quite a bit of money for the established players I don't see this helping develop/sustain both esports in any way -> money bags will lose interest shortly after and move to the next thing, so this kind of circuit will be a one-time thing, but yeah, that's quite the 'cup is half-empty' take, of course.
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On March 30 2023 16:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 16:08 Master of DalK wrote:If it wasn't for politics the IP Rights fiasco between Blizzard and KeSPa would've never happened all those years ago lol. Like someone else said earlier ethical consumption is impossible these days but drawing your line in the sand with whataboutism in regards to the US or EU as a defense for Saudi Arabia sportswashing their actively bad choices away, is ridiculous. The poverty line isn't fixed globally, its higher in Toronto than it is in Saudia Arabia by like 40%. Hey, just don't engage in these country-country comparisons. Regardless of who's "right" or "wrong", it centers morality on nationalism, which is problematic in many ways. Your country's moral deficiencies shouldn't prevent you from calling out the problems in another country, nor should you blindly defend your motherland .
Man, I agree with you.
everyone is unique, every country is unique too
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Brood War?! :O
Wow.. now that is unexpected. Awesome!
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so we support a brutal dictatorship with countless human rights violations sponsoring our esports now?
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This is so great. If this is the final year of SC2, it is a happy ending for me. Our community is so strong, even without official support.
PS: For those people talking about politics, as a chinese player, I just want to say that SCboy and chinese fans are just ordinary people. Fortunately, some investors were also SC players (like the CEO of Hypergryph), so we can keep the scene going. Oliveira/Time really inspired a lot of us, which also brought new investors. This has definitely nothing to do with CCP. Dota 2 also has the oil money cup, and they at least spent the oil money on something good to society. I really hate politics...
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On March 30 2023 02:38 cesmin wrote:www.youtube.comSaudi Arabia is the world's largest arms importer ( ~11% of all global arms imports ), the United States is their top supplier (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). 22% of the Saudi population lives below the poverty line ( Saudi Journal of Medicine, 2017 ). ~233,000 people have been killed due the Saudi "intervention" in Yemen ( Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project ). The United Nations has described the situation in Yemen as the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with millions of people suffering from hunger, disease, and displacement.
I don’t care. People suffering all around the world. News at 11
More SC2 is always good news
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On March 30 2023 21:55 hwjdts224 wrote:
so we support a brutal dictatorship with countless human rights violations sponsoring our esports now?
Personally, I stopped watching ESL content after they were bought by Savvy Gaming Group in February 2022. I kept watching World Team League because SCboy is not the CCP.
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Those who live are those who fight.
Victor Hugo
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Whatever, I'm happy there's a big tournament. Don't care where the money is coming from simply because my ideas are not following the existence or not of an esports tournament.
Tbf I'm even more excited about the BW tournament than the SC2 one.
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On March 30 2023 20:00 Creager wrote:
money bags will lose interest shortly after and move to the next thing, so this kind of circuit will be a one-time thing, but yeah, that's quite the 'cup is half-empty' take, of course.
$500,000 is nothing to them. They are just going for the low hanging fruit with this one.
Google the prize pool for 'The Land of Heroes'.
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On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others.
It's virtue signaling and wokeism, which for whatever has taken over the western world...it's a mind virus
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On March 31 2023 06:01 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others. It's virtue signaling and wokeism, which for whatever has taken over the western world...it's a mind virus
True. I feel like the UN should come up with a quota. Like you are allowed to opress women if you atleast sponsor 2 billion dollars per year for sport-events. Want to wage war against a neighbor? Damn, that's like 4-6 billion per year. Planning to make slavery legal again? Shit bro, we just hit double-digits!
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On March 31 2023 06:01 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others. It's virtue signaling and wokeism, which for whatever has taken over the western world...it's a mind virus
There's a mind virus taking over the western world... that causes them to not support foreign dictatorships whose values are inimical to those of western civilisation?
Can someone confirm?
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On March 31 2023 06:01 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2023 08:25 Waxangel wrote:
Whataboutism is so comical.
When normal people realize many entities (countries, companies, etc.) in the world are bad, they choose which ones not to support as best as they reasonably can.
It's actually an INSANE take to say that if you accept one bad entity, you must accept all the others. It's virtue signaling and wokeism, which for whatever has taken over the western world...it's a mind virus
Yeah, sooo much wokeism and virtue-signaling to feel conflicted about supporting a regime that literally chopped an opposition figure into little tiny pieces after luring him to a location under false pretenses. That's pretty normal, right?
Or maybe not everything is like every other thing.
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I'm confused, i understand if you take issue with the country or its government, but what's wrong with what they're doing here? Do you boycott everything the country does? Is everyone in the country bad? Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes?
It's not like the US doesn't commit war crimes either (assassination of a top military leader especially without declaring war, drone attacks in cities where innocent civilians live, these are categorized as terrorist attacks). What about the US selling a lot of weapons to Saudi Arabia, and being allies?
Does South Koreans playing in US sc2 tournaments mean they condone that? Is everyone in the US bad? Should everyone who disagrees with the gov suddenly leave for another country? What if you don't have the means to?
If the World Olympics still hosts events in countries where there is a lot of political tension / possible war ongoing (like the USSR back then, or Germany), then i think it's OK for esports fans to come together for this too, as long as the people hosting this aren't the ones directly responsible for anything atrocious.
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On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
If the World Olympics still hosts events in countries where there is a lot of political tension / possible war ongoing (like the USSR back then
That's not a good example since 66 countries boycotted the games entirely.
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Maybe have a seperate thread for the politics? I'm interested in the tournament not the virtue signalling.
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On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes?
Yes.
The organisers are Saudi royalty. This tournament is literally a play by the government to improve their rep.
https://saudiesports.sa/en/board-members/
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If I played I'd write Kashoggi on the minimap with pylons.
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On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm confused, i understand if you take issue with the country or its government, but what's wrong with what they're doing here? Do you boycott everything the country does? Is everyone in the country bad? Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes?
It's not like the US doesn't commit war crimes either (assassination of a top military leader especially without declaring war, drone attacks in cities where innocent civilians live, these are categorized as terrorist attacks). What about the US selling a lot of weapons to Saudi Arabia, and being allies?
Does South Koreans playing in US sc2 tournaments mean they condone that? Is everyone in the US bad? Should everyone who disagrees with the gov suddenly leave for another country? What if you don't have the means to?
If the World Olympics still hosts events in countries where there is a lot of political tension / possible war ongoing (like the USSR back then, or Germany), then i think it's OK for esports fans to come together for this too, as long as the people hosting this aren't the ones directly responsible for anything atrocious.
1- This isn't a tournament organised by some StarCraft fans who happen to be Saudi, it's an image laundering project owned, paid for and chaired by the Saudi royals.
2- Trying to compare the United States and Saudi Arabia is completely oblivious, but even granted that ridiculous premise, you would be completely entitled to criticise American government propaganda utilising esports, as indeed people have.
3- People have criticised StarCraft tournaments for a multitude of things like broadcast time, payout format, ad time, bracket formation, casting talent, being held online, map pool, region locking, etc. but being used as image laundering by an awful dictatorship is somehow off-limits? What next, will I not be allowed to criticise that scumbag Luxury 'cause he's an MSL champion?
If people want to be oblivious to what's happening, it's their responsibility to keep their heads buried in the sand, can't just accuse everyone actually talking about basic facts of being infected by a "mind virus".
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On March 31 2023 19:32 datastuff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes? Yes. The organisers are Saudi royalty. This tournament is literally a play by the government to improve their rep. https://saudiesports.sa/en/board-members/
Yeah, now people think that if problems are too far from their country, they won t affect them.
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On March 30 2023 01:47 Haku wrote:
Glad about SC2 getting some love, but really don't like where the money for this is coming from.
This.
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On March 31 2023 22:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm confused, i understand if you take issue with the country or its government, but what's wrong with what they're doing here? Do you boycott everything the country does? Is everyone in the country bad? Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes?
It's not like the US doesn't commit war crimes either (assassination of a top military leader especially without declaring war, drone attacks in cities where innocent civilians live, these are categorized as terrorist attacks). What about the US selling a lot of weapons to Saudi Arabia, and being allies?
Does South Koreans playing in US sc2 tournaments mean they condone that? Is everyone in the US bad? Should everyone who disagrees with the gov suddenly leave for another country? What if you don't have the means to?
If the World Olympics still hosts events in countries where there is a lot of political tension / possible war ongoing (like the USSR back then, or Germany), then i think it's OK for esports fans to come together for this too, as long as the people hosting this aren't the ones directly responsible for anything atrocious. 1- This isn't a tournament organised by some StarCraft fans who happen to be Saudi, it's an image laundering project owned, paid for and chaired by the Saudi royals. 2- Trying to compare the United States and Saudi Arabia is completely oblivious, but even granted that ridiculous premise, you would be completely entitled to criticise American government propaganda utilising esports, as indeed people have.3- People have criticised StarCraft tournaments for a multitude of things like broadcast time, payout format, ad time, bracket formation, casting talent, being held online, map pool, region locking, etc. but being used as image laundering by an awful dictatorship is somehow off-limits? What next, will I not be allowed to criticise that scumbag Luxury 'cause he's an MSL champion? If people want to be oblivious to what's happening, it's their responsibility to keep their heads buried in the sand, can't just accuse everyone actually talking about basic facts of being infected by a "mind virus".
Do you therefore not watch any ESL tournaments anymore? Remember that the entire freaking thing is owned by Saudi Arabia. And the entire thing was bought for image laundering purposes.
I agree that it's shit. But whether we like it or not, without ESL (Saudi) or Gamers8 (Saudi) SC2 would be completely dead.
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On March 31 2023 22:04 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 19:32 datastuff wrote:On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes? Yes. The organisers are Saudi royalty. This tournament is literally a play by the government to improve their rep. https://saudiesports.sa/en/board-members/ Yeah, now people think that if problems are too far from their country, they won t affect them.
Oh people think that they cant really control everything in life, and have to live with the "shame" of their choice. Like if the people of the country arent doing a thing about it, or they are not doing enough, then why are we trying to be the hero of justice all of a sudden?
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What about BW? Nobody mentions it..
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Probably made up of slave money. Pass on this one.
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On April 01 2023 02:06 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 22:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm confused, i understand if you take issue with the country or its government, but what's wrong with what they're doing here? Do you boycott everything the country does? Is everyone in the country bad? Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes?
It's not like the US doesn't commit war crimes either (assassination of a top military leader especially without declaring war, drone attacks in cities where innocent civilians live, these are categorized as terrorist attacks). What about the US selling a lot of weapons to Saudi Arabia, and being allies?
Does South Koreans playing in US sc2 tournaments mean they condone that? Is everyone in the US bad? Should everyone who disagrees with the gov suddenly leave for another country? What if you don't have the means to?
If the World Olympics still hosts events in countries where there is a lot of political tension / possible war ongoing (like the USSR back then, or Germany), then i think it's OK for esports fans to come together for this too, as long as the people hosting this aren't the ones directly responsible for anything atrocious. 1- This isn't a tournament organised by some StarCraft fans who happen to be Saudi, it's an image laundering project owned, paid for and chaired by the Saudi royals. 2- Trying to compare the United States and Saudi Arabia is completely oblivious, but even granted that ridiculous premise, you would be completely entitled to criticise American government propaganda utilising esports, as indeed people have.3- People have criticised StarCraft tournaments for a multitude of things like broadcast time, payout format, ad time, bracket formation, casting talent, being held online, map pool, region locking, etc. but being used as image laundering by an awful dictatorship is somehow off-limits? What next, will I not be allowed to criticise that scumbag Luxury 'cause he's an MSL champion? If people want to be oblivious to what's happening, it's their responsibility to keep their heads buried in the sand, can't just accuse everyone actually talking about basic facts of being infected by a "mind virus". Do you therefore not watch any ESL tournaments anymore? Remember that the entire freaking thing is owned by Saudi Arabia. And the entire thing was bought for image laundering purposes. I agree that it's shit. But whether we like it or not, without ESL (Saudi) or Gamers8 (Saudi) SC2 would be completely dead.
Watch it, or don't, it's not my responsibility and I'm sure you're old enough to make your own choices without needing me to validate them. It's not people who watch this event I'm here to judge, it's the crybabies who want to pretend that this was an apolitical event until the woke virtue signalling mind virus of the western world caused people to mention who was funding it and why.
It's impossible to achieve moral purity in our consumer habits, and it isn't like the StarCraft fanbase is large enough to launder the Sauds' reputation even if we wanted to and actively tried. Watching this tournament won't make you a bad person. But complaining that other people won't pretend everything's fine, or are willing to take action within the means available to them as though they're the problem? As though they're "bringing politics into this"? I absolutely despise that fucking cowardice.
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Kinda wish the 500.000$ would be used for the EPT / GSL / ASL prizemoney in 2023 instead.
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My country isn't bad, it's other people's countries who are bad. My country is good. People may point out the bad things that my country has done, but that doesn't count because it's whataboutism. It only counts if other countries do bad stuff. Besides, my country wouldn't do bad stuff because my country is good. Only other countries do bad stuff. When I point out that other countries do bad stuff, it's not right to point out that my country also does bad stuff, because it makes me feel bad. I want to feel good and superior which is why I point out the bad stuff other countries do. It makes me look like a hypocrite when people point out all the bad stuff my country does that I ignore so don't do that. It's not nice to point out people's hypocrisy. People who point out other people's hypocrisy are just meanies.
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Nobody in this thread is arguing any government institution is above criticism. If U.S. Army Esports would be sponsoring a StarCraft tournament, I personally would have issues with that as well.
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@AcrossFromTime:
If you'd actually read the counter points (like 2 comments above your own actually), you may notice that your troll post isn't as thought provoking as you might think.
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I do not agree with criticizing or boycotting activities that contribute to general well-being just because they are promoted by organizations that are themselves very questionable for other activities. This especially includes sports, including electronic ones.
It is difficult to know the real reasons for the promotion, and they are probably complex. Here, they could be a mix of image laundering with economic interest in making e-sports mainstream and profitable in the long term, and with a genuine enjoyment of the tournaments. Probably certain people within the organization value some reasons more, and others value other.
Even if we assume that the main reason is image laundering in the face of the atrocities committed against another nation, I am convinced that the activity itself contributes, in the medium and long term, to the elimination of such atrocities. I believe that sports have been a fundamental factor in the progressive (and slow) reduction of violence between peoples and nations, replacing it with healthy competition. And I am willing to tolerate its promotion by those seeking short-term benefits because the long-term benefit is greater and goes precisely against the ideas of those seeking it in the short term.
However, I consider it essential that, while participating in the activity, the double standard of the promoter is highlighted.
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On April 01 2023 07:53 tlnetuser108 wrote:
Probably made up of slave money. Pass on this one.
Slave money? Curious what you mean by this because I googled it and Google is saying saudi Arabia doesn't have slaves. Not since 1962.
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On April 01 2023 19:17 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:Nobody in this thread is arguing any government institution is above criticism. If U.S. Army Esports would be sponsoring a StarCraft tournament, I personally would have issues with that as well.
Didn't that already happen or am I misremembering? Like, a Dreamhack in the US?
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On March 30 2023 01:47 Haku wrote:
Glad about SC2 getting some love, but really don't like where the money for this is coming from.
Imho THIS is just the best statement in this thread and the summary of my own thougts.
If you're buying the products of a company that is doing really bad things to people or environment, YES, then you ARE supporting it and help to make the world a place much worse.
If you enjoy an e-sports tournament, that is funded by a country or company trying to do image laundering, well, it's up to you if you support that country/company by keeping your mouth shut and not criticizing any misdemeanors.
Image laundry does only work if YOU let it change your mind.
Otherwise: let them spend their money if they want to. It changes the period of time, I can enjoy premier class Starcraft, but it doesn't change how I think of Saudi Arabia.
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Qatar and Saudi Arabia are 2 different countries
If we're talking about workers who are heavily abused or lack freedom or treated in a way similar enough to slaves, then i can mention that the US also has modern day slavery in forms such as prisoners being forced to do manual labor, and those in power being allowed to extend their sentences after their original sentence, even if they didn't do anything bad since the original sentence. This coupled with the issues of racial prejudice that leads to a disproportionate amount of minorities being affected by this, and that many of these people were arrested for possession of weed (which is now legal), is labeled by many as modern day slavery.
I'm not trying to argue which country is better or has "less bad", but to respond to some other people, I think saying that comparing the US's war crimes to Saudi Arabia's war crimes is absurd is... well to me, war crimes are war crimes, if we're looking at the bads, the atrocities, then it's difficult to say one country is morally above the other or "better overall" when they too committ atrocities.
If watching or supporting a Saudi Arabia tournament is bad and should be discouraged, then I would think that same logic should apply to ESL (I didn't know they're owned by Saudi Arabia now), and also to tournaments hosted by the US. I'm not saying that it's "wrong" for people to support the ones they want and to draw the line where they want, but it just really isn't that black and white to me.
If the people in this esports federation are specifically the same people responsible for war crimes or a terrible dictatorship, then sure it would be different than supporting a SC2 tourny in the US hosted by people not in the government. But then I would wonder if these same people really are the same ones responsible, or just relatives.
I also think Xamo's perspective has good points, and lays out a positive possibility/outcome from all this. As Xamo suggested, a realistic probability is that some of them care more genuinely about esports and support the bad stuff less.
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Don't let good news get in the way of political activism. Why is it that folks are always "conflicted" when taking the virtuous side requires no sacrifice. We've known about Chinese concentration camps for years, but I don't see folks giving up their iphones anytime soon.
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Sometimes it's best to factcheck things in a discussion.
While Saudi Arabia has a lot - and I mean really A LOT - issues with human rights violations, slavery isn't the main issue imho.
You can check on the Global Slavery Index that is published by renowned NGO "Walk free".
https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/2018/findings/global-map/#prevalence
You can still be outraged by Saudi sponsoring and organising that tournament, there's lot of reasons, e.g. women's rights, war in Yemen, the Kashoggi murder, religious intolerance, an autocratic regime...
But in the end, it's probably very hard to find a country, that's innocent enough to be a "good" place for sports events. Perhaps we have to admit that. And keep pointing out the points of criticism applicable to that country.
That said, there are certainly countries, that are actually really least suitable for any international events.
For me, those are countries that are right now committing war crimes or genocide. That's my "red line".
But that's of course quite personal.
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On April 02 2023 22:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Qatar and Saudi Arabia are 2 different countries
You're completely right of course. For some reason I remembered it being held in Saudi Arabia, but it was held in Qatar.
So only the first link has any relevancy.
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On April 01 2023 02:54 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2023 22:04 Vision_ wrote:On March 31 2023 19:32 datastuff wrote:On March 31 2023 16:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Does the esports organizers have anything to do with the oil industry or the war crimes? Yes. The organisers are Saudi royalty. This tournament is literally a play by the government to improve their rep. https://saudiesports.sa/en/board-members/ Yeah, now people think that if problems are too far from their country, they won t affect them. Oh people think that they cant really control everything in life, and have to live with the "shame" of their choice. Like if the people of the country arent doing a thing about it, or they are not doing enough, then why are we trying to be the hero of justice all of a sudden?
The world is cruel, there s no doubt so it s about you to make the world more beautifull or be a part of destruction. And most of the time, where you put money into is an expression of your mind and will belong to a politic question. Obviously no country could honestly assert that it was beyond reproach in the area of human rights, but why give so much effort and money to save their image ? In France, we are totally ashamed by the recent events of police repression for example (because people don t give a shit of voting for president election and now 90% disagree about retreat reform,... all that said, if most of players boycott the event, the saudi policy ended in failure).
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I'm not so sure about the effectiveness of this sports-washing thing. How many people have actually changed their opinions about these countries since they started doing it?
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good for the players who were invited, i would be quite sad if i was a player who was not invited though
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Those who claim that this tournament will change Saudi Arabia in a way that it will become slightly more democratic, and "humane" in general, have to realize that this has been said about many other MUCH bigger events that has taken place in e.g. china or russia. And nothing has changed after these events.
That being said I am happy for the players participating. I will most likely watch these games.
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I agree. The Russian invasion of Ukraine showed us cozying up to brutal dictatorships will only embolden them. Now we are at hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced in this tragic war.
The Wikipedia article on the failed policy of "Change through trade" provides a good overview of how politicians are now rethinking relations with autocratic regimes.
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So have all the invited players confirm their participation for this?
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Honestly, from the way they promote Rainbow 6, Fortnite, Rocket League and CSGO as their "Elite Titles", I don't think Starcraft (1 or 2) was much of a thought for them
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So the bracket for the "qualifier" event is out, quietly, and for some damn reason Clem is on Stage 2 of the World bracket is weird, while we have Spirit and Special and, no disrespect, Lambo on Stage 1.
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On April 12 2023 12:42 tigera6 wrote:
So the bracket for the "qualifier" event is out, quietly, and for some damn reason Clem is on Stage 2 of the World bracket is weird, while we have Spirit and Special and, no disrespect, Lambo on Stage 1.
there is so little suspense between Clem and these top tier 2 players that i even don t follow these matchs anyway
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United States33374 Posts
Looks like all of the regular EPT casters will be involved:
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Nice lineup, good to see the usual casters beeing there, happy to se Demo back and Artosis aswell
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Why is one of the largest private sc events in history this not in the tournaments page of liquipedia or advertised in any way? Is the goal to repel any future investors from investing in a 1k viewer event ?
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It's their job to promote their events.
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Demuslim's ID was shortened to "Demu", possibly because this tournament is backed by the government of Saudi Arabia.
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I love how rushed all of this is. The tournament was announced like, half a month ago? Qualifiers begin two weeks after announcement, and then tournament is in July/August.
Also has to be one of the worst kinds of half-invitational qualifier system ever. Gives way too much weight to the IEM performances, which already restrict tons of players... Oh well.
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My hope is to see at least one player get Blitzchunged by referencing Jamal Khashoggi
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Why would they ruin their source of living?
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EPT
