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On December 12 2022 04:41 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2022 04:36 Vision_ wrote:
A lot of units have 8 or 9 points sight of view. They haven t really a chance of escaping. What do you mean? Zerg always has lots of overseers around when ghosts are out. Vision range is almost never a factor here, I'd think. Anyway, we will see how it will turn out.
Yeah maybe you re right, but this fix is necessary from my point of view. I find a little bit frustating to watch a shoot able to kill an unit from very far (without limit at all)
Let s look what will happen... Reduce by half the damage for units who escaped can be considered as well.
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On December 12 2022 03:28 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2022 17:32 ejozl wrote:
Seems weird to me that they would make Stasis Ward priority 20, while Widow Mines are still priority 19. For people who don't know, if you get dropped by Widow Mines. Your stalkers, cannons, void rays will prefer to attack the Medivac over the Widow Mine. And if Stasis should have the same priority as any other combat unit, then I think Widow Mines should have that as well. Who had the idea of priority in Sc2? Broodwar didn't have it why unit should have priority?
I'm sure there is some priority system, if not the exact same.
It's pretty simple actually:
All units are priority 20, including static defense that is a threat to ground units.
Priority 19 goes to Widow Mine when it's unburrowed(this is an inconsistency), and static defense that only attack air units. And static defense that can become a threat later(spore/spine uprooted).
Priority 11 goes to the rest of the buildings, larvae and all eggs.
Changing around these priorities can be an issue because it puts bias into the system. Who are we to judge that a unit should treat the Carrier more threatening than the Interceptor, simply because killing the Carrier removes the Interceptor. If anything you could argue that the Carrier is harmless in of itself and it should have lower priority compared to the Interceptor. Now mechanics wise I don't mind it, but it goes against the rules. That is unless you wanna have Broodlords&SH's be a bigger threat than Broodlings/Locusts.
The Stasis change is a weird one as well, though functionally, I understand the reason to change it.
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The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row.
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On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row.
Not that I don't agree with your frustration because I do.
But the Raven also got buffed. Very slightly but a 50 gas cost decrease is pretty significant.
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For everyone worried about Protoss lategame being removed by this patch, you're all welcome in the Church of Has!
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On December 12 2022 16:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
But the Raven also got buffed. Very slightly but a 50 gas cost decrease is pretty significant. AA missile is nerfed, matrix is nerfed, turrets are nerfed.
You have faster/cheaper raven with a bit more initial energy, yeah, but they're still 2 supply and are now much worse in the late-game. And outside of TvT nobody makes more than 1 or 2 ravens (if any) anyway, but now these ravens are strictly worse.
I would say - at best it's a slight nerf, at worst it's a significant nerf.
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On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row.
Don't forget the Broodlord buff. Multiple pros like uthermal said that the lifespan reduction barely matters because broodlings usually get cleaned up anyways within a few seconds (unless you've already lost) and the speed buff is huge as it reduces the main weakness of Broodlords.
It really seems unarguable to me that the "balance" council mostly consisted of Zergs or that the Zergs have the most influence within that group.
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On December 12 2022 18:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row. Don't forget the Broodlord buff. Multiple pros like uthermal said that the lifespan reduction barely matters because broodlings usually get cleaned up anyways within a few seconds (unless you've already lost) and the speed buff is huge as it reduces the main weakness of Broodlords. It really seems unarguable to me that the "balance" council mostly consisted of Zergs or that the Zergs have the most influence within that group.
They just think Serral and Reynor need more helps, God forbid the top Zerg player losing to other non-Zerg players. Also, the balance must be done around ladder players, or so they said.
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And what about ladder bugs - I`ve played with many masters with 2900 ranked points recently.
And was starting from bronze league, although was always platin 1 .
In fact, you can`t predict the level of the player you`re playing with basing on league anymore.
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France12785 Posts
On December 12 2022 18:45 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2022 18:15 Charoisaur wrote:On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row. Don't forget the Broodlord buff. Multiple pros like uthermal said that the lifespan reduction barely matters because broodlings usually get cleaned up anyways within a few seconds (unless you've already lost) and the speed buff is huge as it reduces the main weakness of Broodlords. It really seems unarguable to me that the "balance" council mostly consisted of Zergs or that the Zergs have the most influence within that group. They just think Serral and Reynor need more helps, God forbid the top Zerg player losing to other non-Zerg players. Also, the balance must be done around ladder players, or so they said.
If you lose to 2 base all-ins that were displayed numerous times in the GSL, you do not deserve to advance to be honest.
Zerg was overpowered for so long that people began to think the likes of Reynor and Serral are inherently better than the likes of Bunny, albeit he has no reason to envy them talent wise.
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Basically couple guys who left at SC2 team came around and said so Zerg is winning more than others? Just nerf it and issue as a new patch. This is the sum of this balance patch lol.
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I think Neeb, Stats and PartinG all had periods where they were the best players in the game. But LotV did something to Protoss. The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS. Literally when Protoss would auto win vs Terran in every late game(doesn't mean it's OP) and for PvZ we had 4 supply Tempest + Graviton Catapults, while the Zerg side didn't have Parasitic Bomb, had slow Corruptors, slower rooting Spores and 7 range abduct that couldn't be cast while Burrowed.
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On December 13 2022 00:55 outscar wrote:
Basically couple guys who left at SC2 team came around and said so Zerg is winning more than others? Just nerf it and issue as a new patch. This is the sum of this balance patch lol.
Except its Zerg winning and they still nerf the other two races
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On December 13 2022 02:01 ejozl wrote:
I think Neeb, Stats and PartinG all had periods where they were the best players in the game. But LotV did something to Protoss. The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS. Literally when Protoss would auto win vs Terran in every late game(doesn't mean it's OP) and for PvZ we had 4 supply Tempest + Graviton Catapults, while the Zerg side didn't have Parasitic Bomb, had slow Corruptors, slower rooting Spores and 7 range abduct that couldn't be cast while Burrowed.
"The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS."
wow, I thought at least Zest would've had it at some point after Rain
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On December 12 2022 16:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row. Not that I don't agree with your frustration because I do. But the Raven also got buffed. Very slightly but a 50 gas cost decrease is pretty significant.
1. Auto turrets now have to be a huge investment (a full mana raven can now only cast 2 instead of 4).
2. AA missile didn't have much use anyway and is nerfed by 33%.
3. Matrix now doesn't last as long.
4. Units like colossus that get matrix'd no longer derp into the terran army when a-moved (this is a 100% a nerf and shouldn't have been hidden in the QoL section, even in Maru vs herO this interaction was huge).
But it's 50 gas cheaper? Definitely a huge nerf overall. It's a bit easier to get raven for it's role as detection now, but it's use as a spellcaster is gutted.
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France12785 Posts
On December 13 2022 05:34 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 02:01 ejozl wrote:
I think Neeb, Stats and PartinG all had periods where they were the best players in the game. But LotV did something to Protoss. The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS. Literally when Protoss would auto win vs Terran in every late game(doesn't mean it's OP) and for PvZ we had 4 supply Tempest + Graviton Catapults, while the Zerg side didn't have Parasitic Bomb, had slow Corruptors, slower rooting Spores and 7 range abduct that couldn't be cast while Burrowed. "The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS." wow, I thought at least Zest would've had it at some point after Rain
Aligulac balance thing is not as useful as prize money won and other metrics though, having a volatile mirror doesn’t help your case and even when protoss was strong they didn’t necessarily dominate the aligulac thingy.
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To be clear the aligulac lead is only for the best player. It's not long ago there was 60% winrate for Protoss. But the point is that even with 60% winrate the best Protoss performer still had way lower rating.
When Rain was the leading player, Protoss wasn't heavily skewed balance wise either. So he was simply the best. But it begs the question, maybe Protoss need to be able to win late game, for it's players to be serious competitors similar to the other races' competitors. And so nerfing Carrier, because 'it's easier to play late game for the Protoss than for its opponent", shows that, actually Protoss can't have a best player, except if this is a viability. Maybe the ability to get into the late game and playing a long reactive game well, is not easy and is in fact what garners Zergs a lot of success and now Terrans as well.
Because we have been playing out this experiment for a long time and no it's not feasible for Protoss to gamble it's way to consistent wins, even using epic mind games. I mean I had faith when PartinG played and we had shield battery rushes, and Immortal juggling that looks broken. He introduced a ton of builds that we still use today. But it turns out that while they have longevity, winning the meta only wins you a tournament. As seen with Zest with his Adepts, as seen with herO and his Gateway style. Protoss are literally reinventing the wheel, and often all the player earns is a single tournament win. Then it's back to the drawing board, it's honestly sad.. But it's not even a balance issue, it's just that as a Protoss spectator, you can only hope foolishly and then get heartbroken.
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On December 13 2022 05:34 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 02:01 ejozl wrote:
I think Neeb, Stats and PartinG all had periods where they were the best players in the game. But LotV did something to Protoss. The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS. Literally when Protoss would auto win vs Terran in every late game(doesn't mean it's OP) and for PvZ we had 4 supply Tempest + Graviton Catapults, while the Zerg side didn't have Parasitic Bomb, had slow Corruptors, slower rooting Spores and 7 range abduct that couldn't be cast while Burrowed. "The last time Protoss was in the lead on aligulac was Rain back in HotS." wow, I thought at least Zest would've had it at some point after Rain
aligulac ratings should be taken a bit lightly though.
By the eye-test Stats clearly was the best player in the world in the first half of 2017. It was almost 6 years ago now, so not really better I guess, but still...
edit: also Trap had a really strong claim to the title of best player in the world during his insane tournament win streak
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I hadn't really considered this but the archon change could be quite impactful in PvZ. You could negate every lategame runby (including baneling) just with an archon in the wall.
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On December 12 2022 23:50 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2022 18:45 tigera6 wrote:On December 12 2022 18:15 Charoisaur wrote:On December 12 2022 15:06 Fango wrote:
The creep change is the most fake nerf I've ever seen. Not a single player in the world, even Serral or Dark, actually hits tumors within 2 seconds that he cooldown is up anyway. People have rightly said that creep is busted, putting out a fake nerf just feels like an insult more than anything.
Buffing zerg in the run up to Katowice again is madness. Should just add World of Sleepers and Pride of Altaris to be back in the world championship map pool and be done with it.
Hydra buff when they get used all the time (every top terran can be seen losing games to lingbanehydra)? Ultra buffs while they get used by all the top zergs (ultra run bys are huge)? Can anyone explain why these are needed? You don't buff units that are already successful.
Terran got nerfs across the board (cyclone and speed banshee changes are useless, everything else is nerfs), and protoss got it even worse (faster upgrades doesn't make up for no lategame). Most of these changes are very good from a design perspective, but the buff/nerf balance is completely wrong. It's hard to look at this and believe the team was not trying to ensure zerg win their 9th world championship in a row. Don't forget the Broodlord buff. Multiple pros like uthermal said that the lifespan reduction barely matters because broodlings usually get cleaned up anyways within a few seconds (unless you've already lost) and the speed buff is huge as it reduces the main weakness of Broodlords. It really seems unarguable to me that the "balance" council mostly consisted of Zergs or that the Zergs have the most influence within that group. They just think Serral and Reynor need more helps, God forbid the top Zerg player losing to other non-Zerg players. Also, the balance must be done around ladder players, or so they said. If you lose to 2 base all-ins that were displayed numerous times in the GSL, you do not deserve to advance to be honest. Zerg was overpowered for so long that people began to think the likes of Reynor and Serral are inherently better than the likes of Bunny, albeit he has no reason to envy them talent wise.
Lol to put bunny in the same league as Serral and reynor
Bunny has been a journeyman his whole career. One dream tournament run won’t change that fact
I guess I can make claims too. Terran has been overpowered for so long that people began to think the likes of Maru is inherently better than the likes of lambo and Scarlett
And before someone says but but Maru has been carrying the race for years
Fact: since 2018 terran has the most GSL winners
Maru cure TY
Dark rogue
herO
If anyone is doing the carrying, it’s our herO
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EPT
