EPTBalance Patch 5.0.11 PTR Patch Notes - Page 13
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
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moonsjde
48 Posts
observer speed: THANK YOU! ive always felt this would be a good change. rewards toss for trying to scout and multitasking the obs well. it's very hard to keep obs or stargate units alive against queens, and i think toss really benefits in a nice way from the option to safely sink attention into obs micro and justify the gas and robo build time, hopefully allowing a little bit more reactive play banshee speed: booooo. this is like a change the balance team would make in mid-heart of the swarm. "harass unit faster now!" not very inspired and not something i think makes gameplay fun, just more tortured emphasis on tryhard worker harass one other thing i'm a little worried about is a disaster for lower level pvz where lurkers are no longer counterable. two of the ways to punish a big aggressive commitment to lurkers were disruptors or fast carriers, and those units are both taking a nerf. mass lurker ASAP is super common on ladder around 4-4.5k and with no other changes to relevant units it seems like that style will continue to dominate zvp, especially with brood lords faster and carriers weaker. the only thing i can think of for toss is - maybe the ravager build time makes rav/ling/bane/queen midgame a little softer and possible to exploit with a big 3/4 base push? not sure | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 08 2022 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23891308/starcraft-ii-5-0-11-ptr-patch-notes En Taro Adun We are excited to push Patch 5.0.11 to PTR which features various amounts of balance, bugfixes, and quality of life improvement done by our community members. Zerg Creep Tumor Cooldown increased from 11 to 13 seconds. Sight range reduced from 11 to 10. Hatchery, Lair and Hive Creep spread interval decreased from 0.3 to 0.25. Sight range increased from 10,11,12 to 12. Viper Added 0.71 second Cast Finish Time to abduct (can not move or use other abilities during this time). Ultralisk Reduced size by 12.5%. Increase range slop from 1 to 1.4 (range target can move before miss). Hydralisk Muscular Augments move speed bonus increased from 0.79 to 1.05. Damage point reduced from 0.15 to 0.1. Brood Lord Move speed increased from 1.97 to 2.3. Broodling Duration reduced from 5.71 to 3.57. Ravager Build time increased from 12 to 17 seconds. Protoss Shield Battery Battery Overcharge recharge rate reduced from 200% to 150%. Observer Move speed increased from 2.63 to 2.82. Model size increased by 17.5%. Archon Can now fit between single-gap walls. (Collision size with other units unaffected). High Templar Move speed increased from 2.63 to 2.82. Disruptor Purifier Orb radius reduced from 1.5 to 1.35. Carrier Interceptor shields reduced from 40 to 30. Interceptor attack target priority reduced from 20 to 19. Interceptor flying radius around target increased. Sentry Build time reduced from 26.4 to 22.9 seconds. Forge Level 1 upgrades research time reduced by 7 seconds. Level 2 upgrades research time reduced by 9 seconds. Level 3 upgrades research time reduced by 11 seconds. Terran Ghost Enhanced Shockwaves upgrade removed. Base EMP radius increased from 1.5 to 1.75. Steady Targeting is canceled if the target moves more than 13.5 range away from the ghost while casting (Cast range is 10). Banshee Hyperflight Rotors upgrade time reduced from 121 to 100 seconds. Hyperflight Rotors cost reduced from 150/150 to 125/125. Cyclone Mag-Field Accelerator damage bonus changed from +20 vs armored to +10 vs all. Sensor Tower Radar range reduced from 30 to 27. Raven (rework) Gas cost reduced from 200 to 150. Build time reduced from 43 to 30 seconds. Starting Energy increased from 50 to 75. Interference Matrix duration reduced from 11 to 8 seconds. Anti-Armor Missile armor reduction reduced from 3 to 2. Corvid Reactor upgrade removed. Auto Turret energy cost increased from 50 to 75 Hoping that we can get some small scale tournaments going for this, it's great to get a balance patch but this one feels kind of misguided in certain areas. The creep changes seem meaningless, the Raven rework is extremely ambitious and warrants a patch borderline in and of itself imo. The Protoss changes feel like lip service, the Sentry should receive something that makes it a better combat unit so it can better support early/mid game GW comps, a few seconds is just meaningless. Also, why Disruptor nerfs? They can be micro'd against and negated entirely, or you can lose a few units, it's one of the few units in the Protoss arsenal that forces interesting micro on both sides on the match up, nerfing this unit just feels frankly dumb, it's not like Protoss as a whole are killing it I mean they aren't ALL herO. I do appreciate a Viper nerf even if it's small, I'm a Zerg but I think the risk reward is imbalanced, the Viper should have to be vulnerable at least to a certain extent while using spells. I also appreciate the Ultralisk buff, would be nice for it to be usable at the least and not just taking up real estate. But yea, hoping these changes get revised. These changes seem mostly useless, bordering on just plain bad, and is WAY too sweeping in it's scope. That Raven change is huge and would probably need multiple patches to be balanced again, is the Raven really such an issue or is it a TvT thing I honestly don't know. | ||
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buzz_bender
445 Posts
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TurtleFish
11 Posts
Next issue is how strong Lurkers are. They obliterate all ground army of Z/P + is super fast + is invisible lol. 90% of tournaments are won by Zerg because of these imbalances. And how do we fix this? Lets BUFF zerg even more lol! C'mon, this creep turmor change is a complete non-factor and a joke. I want to know who is on the balance council? This is not a "community" fix if Scarlett and a couple other folks paid by top Zergs decide how the patch looks. Maybe it's time to move to a new game. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On December 13 2022 16:19 TurtleFish wrote: The biggest issue for me the past year has been how EFFICIENT queens are at defending EVERYTHING - spam queens and you blind counter every early to mid game attack by Z/P and get well ahead. Well obviously this issue is not addressed here, because the patch is designed by the QUEEN of Zerg Scarlett herself lmao... Next issue is how strong Lurkers are. They obliterate all ground army of Z/P + is super fast + is invisible lol. 90% of tournaments are won by Zerg because of these imbalances. And how do we fix this? Lets BUFF zerg even more lol! C'mon, this creep turmor change is a complete non-factor and a joke. I want to know who is on the balance council? This is not a "community" fix if Scarlett and a couple other folks paid by top Zergs decide how the patch looks. Maybe it's time to move to a new game. Queens don't counter any midgame timing. I encourage you to go to the unit tested and create as many queens as you want to try and defend gladepts, DTs, immo/sentry, void/charge, hellbat bc, 2 base bio/tank timings, 2 port BC. They're just a unit. You need other units to defend all of these timings. You cannot defend anything with just queens, same as you can't defend timings with just 1 unit as any other race. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
On December 13 2022 20:59 InfCereal wrote: Queens don't counter any midgame timing. I encourage you to go to the unit tested and create as many queens as you want to try and defend gladepts, DTs, immo/sentry, void/charge, hellbat bc, 2 base bio/tank timings, 2 port BC. They're just a unit. You need other units to defend all of these timings. You cannot defend anything with just queens, same as you can't defend timings with just 1 unit as any other race. And why Zerg keeps Doing queens and drones only ? Haha u wrong. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6889 Posts
On December 13 2022 21:06 BonitiilloO wrote: And why Zerg keeps Doing queens and drones only ? Haha u wrong. You probably won't die when defending gladepts with pure Queen. You just have to play without workers at all then. EZ | ||
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tigera6
3345 Posts
On December 13 2022 20:59 InfCereal wrote: Queens don't counter any midgame timing. I encourage you to go to the unit tested and create as many queens as you want to try and defend gladepts, DTs, immo/sentry, void/charge, hellbat bc, 2 base bio/tank timings, 2 port BC. They're just a unit. You need other units to defend all of these timings. You cannot defend anything with just queens, same as you can't defend timings with just 1 unit as any other race. The thing is, Queen does not need Larva, and does not cost gas. Meaning Zerg can delay on building tech unit to defend for a long period of time with little gas mining, and push everything on building more Drone and Hatch. So by the time the game reach mid-game, Zerg can just explode on economy and jump ahead and never looking back. Terran and Protoss does not have the same luxury, they need tech unit that cost gas ASAP to defend and harrass. Zerg can just sit back and macro and defend everything with Queen and Lings in EARLY game. All the stuff you said are committed attack build, meaning they will hurt the Terran/Protoss macro game if those attack does not do enough damage to the Zerg. Hence the scouting of Zerg has to be pretty great to scout the tech from the opponent and have the correct respond, but with ling surround the map and overlord pillar, most top Zerg can figure out the build timing quite easily. | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
About the PTR patch, I think it's good that a lot has changed. But hope that still come adjustments in 2-3 weeks. Would like to see how top players play specifically on scenarios. Example: Late game, both go on fast tec build different late armies and test them against each other. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
#notadeadgame | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On December 13 2022 21:32 tigera6 wrote: The thing is, Queen does not need Larva, and does not cost gas. Meaning Zerg can delay on building tech unit to defend for a long period of time with little gas mining, and push everything on building more Drone and Hatch. So by the time the game reach mid-game, Zerg can just explode on economy and jump ahead and never looking back. Terran and Protoss does not have the same luxury, they need tech unit that cost gas ASAP to defend and harrass. Zerg can just sit back and macro and defend everything with Queen and Lings in EARLY game. I would wish to hear an answer from someone of the PTR balance team This is simple, so why isn t there a discuss between pros on this subject ? I mean all fighting protoss units cost gas also (except zealot for protoss and zerglings for Zerg), so unless you melt a queen with a warp prism, which is ridiculous, why this fu***** queen is free gas ? It s here the difference which would exist between a hardcore and a pro player. Hardcore player knows that Queens are mandatory and could take their gas cost into account while a pro would have to be able to adapt his build order depending the map and the opponent strategy. That s why i m also for this kind of tweak, at least give a try... in return the mineral price of the queen decrease from 150 to 125 and Zerg player starts with 50 gas for 2 free Queens. | ||
Poopi
France12790 Posts
On December 13 2022 22:15 jack_less wrote: the most beautiful thing about this thread, the conspiracy theories that everything is directed against Terran. personally i think it is the illuminati. About the PTR patch, I think it's good that a lot has changed. But hope that still come adjustments in 2-3 weeks. Would like to see how top players play specifically on scenarios. Example: Late game, both go on fast tec build different late armies and test them against each other. Nothing is directed against terran per se, but the game has been favoring zerg since 2017 hydra buff. 2019 was the absolute worst year in terms of balance but even afterwards zergs have had a good time, while terran and protoss got nerfed pretty quickly as soon as something strong appeared for them. If the reason for that is indeed business / politics about foreigners and audiences, idk, but it's been pretty obvious if you look at the various metrics (and most notably prize money won, which matters the most for progamers). | ||
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syndbg
43 Posts
On December 13 2022 13:55 buzz_bender wrote: Can anybody who has played a bunch of games on the PTR comment on these changes? Played a few terran and zerg games. TvX - looks ok. The level between opponents is so vast that games are very one-sided. Zerg - got a few good ZvT and ZvP games. ZvP - it's fantastic to have a microable hydra. On the other hand, I believe the speed buff can be tuned down from 1.05 (proposed) to 1.01-1.02 and still be a great change. Broods are also much better when you can micro and re-position them, while the DPS nerf is noticeable vs archons. ZvT - played 1-2 good games vs ghost mech. While previously you can chip down the army with broodlings and fungal, now it's really more-onesided that you can't chip down the hellbats as easily. The ghost mech army is more decisive. The snipe range nerf also made the game much more enjoyable. The terran was actually trying to trade on the map instead of spamming PFs and winning the game by afking. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2222 Posts
Other than that I am really happy that there are changes made at all - alive gaem  but srsly when was the last time Zerg had to struggle and adapt?? I'm so tired of them being at the forefront always with the meta favouring them. Toss and Terran often have had to figure out a new meta and sneaky ways to win. With Zerg it's always don't fuck up majorly and you should be able to roll over everything. How I would love for a metagame where Zerg struggles for once... anyway. Nice to see them still working on the game! | ||
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TurtleFish
11 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On December 14 2022 05:55 Poopi wrote: Nothing is directed against terran per se, but the game has been favoring zerg since 2017 hydra buff. 2019 was the absolute worst year in terms of balance but even afterwards zergs have had a good time, while terran and protoss got nerfed pretty quickly as soon as something strong appeared for them. If the reason for that is indeed business / politics about foreigners and audiences, idk, but it's been pretty obvious if you look at the various metrics (and most notably prize money won, which matters the most for progamers). Zerg was indeed favoured since the hydra buff in 2017, and lets not forget the insanity of early 2018 where ling drops were hatch tech and made robo openers impossible, while also nydus worms were invincible and a guaranteed win against stargate. But then right after some zerg foreigners rose to the level of koreans (Serral and Reynor in 2018), the balance team brought back BL/Infestor (together with nydus/SH, zerg had two unbeatable playstyles), which all but guaranteed a blizvzcon the following year and probably gave the best ever odds for foreigners winning another World Cup (the tournament was just a ZvZ between the top 4 zergs). Complete conspiracy theory but it's hard to not think of possible reasons why the balance team might have zerg champions in mind. Perhaps they don't realise consulting with successful foreign pros will lead to a zerg majority input, and then any further zerg buffs will reinforce that. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 14 2022 14:22 Athenau wrote: The Zergluminati are a meme, but if you're putting out balance patches that look indistinguishable from what a shadowy Zerg cabal would create, consider that you might be doing something wrong. And what exactly about this looks like it was created by a, "shadowy Zerg cabal."? I'm not saying I'm the biggest fan of these changes (as is stated in my post) but no offense, I think alot of people here are having a bit of an overreaction. The Hydra changes absolutely make them more micro friendly, isn't that what people what? Or do they just want Zerg to be weaker? If this change pushes Hydras over the top they can always reduce their HP a tad. Ultralisks have long been borderline useless, none of these changes are a stat buff, why shouldn't they receive a viability/QoL change? Yea Brood Lords are a tiny bit faster, but brood lings have their CD cut almost in half, seems pretty reasonable. It's not like going from 1.97 to 2.3 is massive. Ravager nerf, substantial Viper nerf (well warranted I might add), and to be fair to the people that are upset, I also think the Tumor Change is half useless, but the vision decrease is absolutely a nerf. I know there are people here that think that creep needs to be borderline removed from the game. So is the issue that Zerg didn't get nerfed sufficiently? I have a difficult time getting behind this, "The sky is falling" mentality that is apparently popular around here. | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
When you have 60-70% of map covered in creep, how much of effect this change will have? I would guess - 2-3% at most. You'll have 0.5 cm less of vision from creep on it's edge, and only some of the edges are of any importance. This is a nerf, yes, but super inconsequential one. >> Ultralisks have long been borderline useless, Then why zerg keep using them vs airtoss and in many games vs T too? I'm not saying they should not be buffed a bit, I think they should - just saying it's not true that they were borderline useless. You see them more often than thors, right? I know I do. Where are buffs for thors then? >> brood lings have their CD cut almost in half Which might have lesser effect that you'd expect. Very often a lot of broodlings are either cleared out before they expire, or they cannot even attack because there's so many other broodlings around targets. So this might sound like a pretty big nerf on paper, yeah, but it might not have big effect. | ||
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