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On December 11 2022 01:00 TossHeroes wrote:
Basically another patch where toss gets the shit end of the stick
Protoss AND Terran.
Terrans will get a much worse ghost vs both Z & P with stronger Z's ultras and hydras, + worse sensor towers that helped to control Zerg movement somewhat.
On December 10 2022 23:48 Creager wrote:
To be completely fair, tho, it should also be said that HM took TWO allegedly random replays to prove his point, which arguably is a very small sample size.... technically he could just have cherry-picked extremely bad examples here.
The main creep issue is not that tumor's CD was too low. The main creep booster is that 5-6 queens will make 5-6 tumors and a few seconds later creep covers everything around.
That's why many terrans think that it barely even helps to clear creep vs top zerg - there are too many queens, so everything you cleared will be "creeped" back in a moment.
That's why even top zerg don't need to use tumors ability exactly on cooldown, and entire map is covered in creep anyway.
You put 5 tumors in one place - they all will be 1-2 seconds apart anyway usually - and use tumors ability 20s later when all of them are off CD, instead of doing it one by one.
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Mexico2170 Posts
This is one of the most INFURIATING patches I've ever seen.
Seriously what is wrong with Blizzard?
You're buffing Zerg? REALLY?
Buffing Ultras? Nerginf Disruptors? Increasing obs size model? NERFING BATTERIES?
The creep nerfs are ridiculous as well.
I feel literally disgusted. I'm not kidding I'm literally disgusted.
Buffed Hydras?
REALLY? After the fast hydras broke the game previousl¿y?
NERFED ORACLE?
Stasis Ward
Attack target priority increased from 10 to 20.
What are you doing?
}And the worst:
CARRIERS MADE USELESS Nerfed interceptors health, made carriers more likely to be targetted,and nerfing interceptors damage!!!!! (Bigger radius means interceptors will atack less as they need to get close to the unit to atack).Might as well remove them from the game.
. LURKERS, the most OP unit in ZvPand strong in TvZ was buffed?
And Hydras.
We've had faster hydra before. Prepare to see unstoppable Hydra timmings that hit very fast vs Protoss and terran. Also now Hydras will move faster out of storm receiving elss damage, will dodge Disruptor shots better, split better vs tanks.
It's a massive buff.
Just give Zerg players all the trophys now, what a farce.
I haven't been this mad at a patch ever. It's ridiculous.
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I am happy to see SC2 gets a new patch, even including bug fixes.
But concerned about the Z buffs being too much...
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On December 11 2022 00:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 00:15 tigera6 wrote:On December 10 2022 23:56 allmotor1 wrote:
So how is Terran going to win vs zerg late game?
Hydra/ling/bane to late game lurker tech will just roll over Terran now.
Faster hydras + faster broodlords + smaller ultralisks and nerfed ghosts. Ghosts was the only unit that allowed Terran to compete vs late game zerg, now they are nerfed and zerg gets significant upgrades to their units. Lurkers got a buff due to the ghost nerf too. How? We wait for Maru to show us how, if he cant then it means we are F. To be fair, even with these nerfs, Maru has still managed to beat Zergs in the late game in more unfavorable metas than this one looks like it will be. It'll simply go back to Terran winning in the late game only if they are just plain better than their opponent. As I've been saying in this thread, Terran's strongest power, their midgame isn't being touched it's actually getting some small buffs with the Ravager getting nerfed as well as the Raven changes. Who knows, maybe the new Cyclone might be better now too since its damage scales better vs Zerg units overall now. So what's most likely to happen is the meta for 99% of Terrans will go back to "Kill Zerg in the midgame or die trying" which is where it has been dozens of times in SC2's history. It's nothing new.
In TvZ, Terrans are weaker in the midgame than they are lategame right now. And this patch buffs the most common Zerg mid-game composition (hydra-ling-bane). Plus, "kill them before they get there" as the standard strategy has always been dumb, and always will be dumb.
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Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it?
I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then.
The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel
Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138
e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin)
Else, have fun with a broken update 
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On December 11 2022 01:33 Athenau wrote:
Plus, "kill them before they get there" as the standard strategy has always been dumb, and always will be dumb.
Yeah, it's dumb.
When Z knows that T _has_ to kill them before late game, because T doesn't have much of a chance in late game, it's a big advantage. You don't have to guess or perfectly scout what is your opponent is planning, so you can prepare for the inevitable early/mid game push.
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Thinking it over, I think the main change I'm worried about is the Ghost Snipe nerf. If it's really as impactful as people are claiming, then it seems rather game-breaking. There should imo be ways to punish Zergs just continually attacking into fortified positions and withdrawing, and ways for Terran to be more efficient, and just in general Terrans having a strong late-game composition is extremely important for the current balance and imo for balance generally. I don't see a reason to nerf Snipe at all, but making it easily cancelled even by Lurkers unburrowing seems especially crazy. If it's cancellable at all, it should only be by fast units immediately choosing to withdraw.
I like the Hydra buffs in themselves quite a bit, though it's true that they might be dangerous in ZvP combined with the shield battery and disruptor nerfs. Maybe it would be wiser to pick either buffed hydras OR the shield battery nerf.
And yes, if as people are saying the creep nerf actually makes no difference even at the highest levels, then that should just be increased.
I don't think the patch is quite as Zerg-favored as people are claiming, but hopefully the "balance team" is paying attention to the PTR and feedback and can make some tweaks and not just implement this all whole. I think that's an important test of the system. And absolutely this patch should not go through right before Katowice.
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On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update
It's funny, because they still have bugs and glitches in animation. And they ignored it. Like one with thor or covid reactor. And now, I mean, you are right, good luck and have fun, because this is the most DUMBEST and long awaited update. And I will keep silent about map-related problems.
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On December 11 2022 01:06 [Phantom] wrote:
This is one of the most INFURIATING patches I've ever seen.
Seriously what is wrong with Blizzard?
You're buffing Zerg? REALLY?
Buffing Ultras? Nerginf Disruptors? Increasing obs size model? NERFING BATTERIES?
The creep nerfs are ridiculous as well.
I feel literally disgusted. I'm not kidding I'm literally disgusted.
Buffed Hydras?
REALLY? After the fast hydras broke the game previousl¿y?
NERFED ORACLE?
Stasis Ward
Attack target priority increased from 10 to 20.
What are you doing?
}And the worst:
CARRIERS MADE USELESS Nerfed interceptors health, made carriers more likely to be targetted,and nerfing interceptors damage!!!!! (Bigger radius means interceptors will atack less as they need to get close to the unit to atack).Might as well remove them from the game.
. LURKERS, the most OP unit in ZvPand strong in TvZ was buffed?
And Hydras.
We've had faster hydra before. Prepare to see unstoppable Hydra timmings that hit very fast vs Protoss and terran. Also now Hydras will move faster out of storm receiving elss damage, will dodge Disruptor shots better, split better vs tanks.
It's a massive buff.
Just give Zerg players all the trophys now, what a farce.
I haven't been this mad at a patch ever. It's ridiculous.
I honestly refuse to believe that you play SC2 at all. There's no way you have this take while playing SC2, lol.
To be fair to you and give you some points why:
* protoss ground armies have been buffed. a.k.a direct buff to herO who plays oracle into super oppressive ground style.
* the stupidly slow HT is more microable now and in the hands of capable protoss players, this is severely reducing the amount of HTs you can lose to dumb out positioning.
* "nerfed oracle". That's a nerf to random stasis on the map that was extremely punishing and game-ending if you do a timing. It's not a nerf to the oracle's biggest functions - scouting and mineral line harass.
* nerfing protoss' defense with 1 robo unit and 1 battery is reasonable. I've played protoss pre-battery era at high masters, it was always possible to defend. With the omega (green) battery defense nowadays is close to no scouting required from protoss side.
* the observer is buffed in terms of speed. HELLO, stop being a victim. The model size is only fair, since it's fast and you can gain so much scouting value from this. This directly compliments the weaker omega shield battery.
* Carrier is not useless, carrier is now not a unit that you start massing from minute 6 to the end of the game and win while playing solitaire on your 2nd screen. If you've watched KingCobra beating Clem and Serral (I think he did beat Serral?), this is a balance issue.
* Disruptor is an anti-fun unit. It was always good on paper, terrible in execution. Focus on stronger gateway armies with faster +1, +2, +3 plays a huge role in protoss' ability to trade armies more efficiently. The seconds difference is huge for timings in both PvZ and PvT. For PvP I can't say, since I don't play it for a long while.
* Last but not least, the sentry buff is huge for holding timings and punishing the other races with some shenanigans. Even the faster hallucination phoenix scout is a huge buff. Slower ravager morph time also enables sentries to be more efficient for timings.
All and all, protoss can be further improved to be slightly closer to terran/zerg's non-stop skirmish efficiency. Their initial design of slow, strong, barely microable units was stupid to begin with and never earned any respect. The (community) balance team should even further try to push the race in that direction, while addressing ways to make existing underutilized units such as sentry, more supportitive.
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Sentry's 3 seconds faster build time - is this that important?
I'd understand if it was -25 gas... but only -3 seconds of build time, and only super-early game (before warpgates)?
Do I miss all these games where 3 seconds faster sentry would change the game?
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The biggest issue for me the past year has been how EFFICIENT queens are at defending EVERYTHING - spam queens and you handily blind counter every early to mid game attack by Z/P and get well ahead. Well obviously this issue is not addressed here, because the patch is designed by the QUEEN of Zerg Scarlett herself lmao...
Next issue is how strong the Lurkers are. They obliterate all ground army of Z/P + is super fast + is invisible lol.
90% of tournaments are won by Zerg because of these imbalances.
And how do we fix this? Lets BUFF zerg even more lol! C'mon, this creep turmor change is a complete non-factor and a joke.
I want to know who is on the balance council? This is not a "community" fix if Scarlett and a couple other folks paid by top Zergs decide how the patch looks. Maybe it's time to move to a new game.
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FYI if u guys are looking for a new RTS game to watch/play, i would recommend AOE4. Lots more diverse strategies and players cannot only play 1 race in a tournament.
Starcraft 2 now is so repetitive, literally just watching Serral / Dark spam 20 queens to defend everything and then overwhelm T/P with far superior economy in mid game to late game.
How is this game balanced if all Serral needs to do to win a game is not to make too many mistakes? How is this a fun game if the only way for T/P to win against Z is for Z to make mistakes and take damage that can generally be avoided? Really sucks to be a top T/P player knowing that a vZ game is not in your control - doesnt matter how gd u play, u just wont win if Serral doesnt take too much damage or make too many mistakes. Sad to see the state that SC2 is in now.
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Scarlett, I suggest for the next patch, u just get straight to the point and delete the Terran and Protoss races.
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On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update
Very interesting, did some testing with the collector's edition skin for the Ultralisk and looks like you're right, the size reduction doesn't seem to be applied for it:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Wow, this is.... not good.
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On December 11 2022 06:26 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update Very interesting, did some testing with the collector's edition skin for the Ultralisk and looks like you're right, the size reduction doesn't seem to be applied for it: + Show Spoiler +
Thank you very much! I've added it to my findings and credited you for verifying it <3
https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/pull/1
On December 11 2022 06:28 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Wow, this is.... not good.
Fixing this is not difficult (easiest could be moving the changes to the parent instance and check if all skins inherit this correctly).
This just shows that the person doing these changes is not an editor god with years of SC2 editor experience and potentially only has little time to do this. We should assist as well as we can
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Germany338 Posts
On December 11 2022 06:45 Ahli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 06:26 Creager wrote:On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update Very interesting, did some testing with the collector's edition skin for the Ultralisk and looks like you're right, the size reduction doesn't seem to be applied for it: + Show Spoiler + Thank you very much! I've added it to my findings and credited you for verifying it <3 https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/pull/1Fixing this is not difficult (easiest could be moving the changes to the parent instance and check if all skins inherit this correctly). This just shows that the person doing these changes is not an editor god with years of SC2 editor experience and potentially only has little time to do this. We should assist as well as we can
i know you only want to help and that you invested some time into this that the (im)balance council already should have
but maybe it would be good if they first revert all changes and do reasonable changes that do not utterly break the balance
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While I am glad there is a team working on balance still for SC2, I am quite surprised by the patch since the game seems okay balance wise right now. If anything, I would've expected some minor zerg nerfs instead of buffs, as zerg has been dominating the biggest tournaments for years. I feel like it's possible toss might be okay despite disruptor and carrier nerfs, which are big. But perhaps the +1/2/3 timings can overcome that?
The ghost nerf seems pretty egregious, considering that Terran is hardly dominating and especially since zerg got multiple buffs. I don't think lurkers stealthily getting faster burrow and unburrow is necessary either.
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On December 11 2022 06:47 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 06:45 Ahli wrote:On December 11 2022 06:26 Creager wrote:On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update Very interesting, did some testing with the collector's edition skin for the Ultralisk and looks like you're right, the size reduction doesn't seem to be applied for it: + Show Spoiler + Thank you very much! I've added it to my findings and credited you for verifying it <3 https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/pull/1On December 11 2022 06:28 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Wow, this is.... not good. Fixing this is not difficult (easiest could be moving the changes to the parent instance and check if all skins inherit this correctly). This just shows that the person doing these changes is not an editor god with years of SC2 editor experience and potentially only has little time to do this. We should assist as well as we can i know you only want to help and that you invested some time into this that the (im)balance council already should have but maybe it would be good if they first revert all changes and do reasonable changes that do not utterly break the balance
I doubt the balance council knows about all changes in this patch.
The balance council and I have different objectives. I do not care about balance that much as I do not play the game. Balance is for other people to decide.
I only care about preventing bugs as I want to enjoy watching SC2 and not see it break apart like WC3. So, I want to assist with my years of SC2 editor experience.
Whoever edits the game at Blizz should fix the bugs or remove undesired changes. The fact that we have so many undocumented changes in this update is more concerning than any imbalance right now. Most undocumented changes benefit Zerg as well.
If I wouldn't check these, most bugs would probably surface some time after the update was released when Blizz probably has no more resources for a hotfix. The developer will most likely switch to WC3 which is a bit of a mess for weeks due to some one liner bug with a cache from what I have heard, or do something for Heroes as that was left on its own for an eternity.
This is the state this game will likely remain at when the patch hits. If we do not invest the time now, the community will suffer because things are not fixed. So, laying back and saying that the balance is bad won't fix it. There are always voices like yours since everyone has their own opinion. Thus, single opinions will not prevent the patch from being released unless you have the gravitas of being a pro player. So, I believe that laying back and doing nothing is exactly the wrong thing to do unless you want to damage the game
Also, I've spend 20 hours since yesterday evening on this because I like this. The passion for this game, the engine and discovering the issues and bugs drove me to do this. Who are you to tell me to not do what I seem to be born to do? 
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On December 11 2022 06:45 Ahli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 06:26 Creager wrote:On December 11 2022 02:03 Ahli wrote:Does anyone have female Ghost skin on the PTR and can check if they have a snipe ability and a cancel button for it? I suspect that it is broken when looking at the data. It is also broken for Nova then. The existing cancel button does not reference the snipe ability. It references a non-existing ability command called BypassArmorCancel Would be cool if people tested more potentially broken stuff: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/604131-balance-patch-5011-ptr-patch-notes?page=7#138e.g. other observer and Ultralisk skins potentially not receiving the correct model size (besides the default skin) Else, have fun with a broken update Very interesting, did some testing with the collector's edition skin for the Ultralisk and looks like you're right, the size reduction doesn't seem to be applied for it: + Show Spoiler + Thank you very much! I've added it to my findings and credited you for verifying it <3 https://github.com/Ahli/sc2xml/pull/1Fixing this is not difficult (easiest could be moving the changes to the parent instance and check if all skins inherit this correctly). This just shows that the person doing these changes is not an editor god with years of SC2 editor experience and potentially only has little time to do this. We should assist as well as we can
Really nice of you to collect all this stuff in a repo <3 Usually I'm trying not to work on weekends, but since you've put in so much effort I've additionally verified the female Ghost issue, I've created an issue for it on GitHub to provide gif's, as well.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/318buFZ.jpg)
