Team Liquid Starleague has historically been a Korean dominated event, with players from StarCraft's adopted homeland winning every event from TSL4 to TSL8 (2012-2021). However, a change of scenery helped to change all that, as the Finnish Phenom Serral dominated all-comers to lift the TSL9 trophy at the live finals in the Netherlands. After taking down Solar, Clem, and GuMiho in the online rounds, Serral continued his rampage at TeamLiquid's Alienware Training Facility by mowing through an even more formidable trio of Reynor, ShoWTimE, and Maru. Overall, Serral ended TSL9 with a 6W-0L record in series and imposing 16W-4L record in maps (80% win-rate).
Serral's grand finals match against Maru was the culmination of years of anticipation, as they had never faced each other in an offline finals despite being two of StarCraft II's best players since 2018. However, if every single StarCraft II fan in the world had looked forward to this match, then it was only Serral's fans who got what they wanted—the Team ENCE Zerg dominated Maru, winning by a comfortable 4-1 score (starting with a 1-map upper bracket advantage).
Maru had demonstrated his infamous defensive capabilities against Reynor earlier on in the bracket, winning a series-clinching game five with his turtling mech style. However, Serral simply did not tolerate Maru's attempts to roll up into a protective shell, overwhelming him with waves of Hydralisks, Zerglings, and Banelings before the Terran player could get entrenched. To Maru's credit, he held out for much longer than any other Terran would have, but he was never able to stabilize into a solid defensive position. The silver lining for Maru fans was that he still found success with his other signature strategy in the 2-Barracks Bunker rush, using it to win his only map of the finals.
On paper, Serral's 4-1 victory over Maru was certainly his most impressive result of TSL9. However, the lasting, legend-making moment of the tournament actually came in the prior upper-bracket finals against ShoWTimE. On the verge of suffering a 0-4 sweep, Die Mauer fought tenaciously on Stargazers to overcome an early deficit and take a commanding lead over Serral in the late-game. But as it turned out, he had only set the table for an even more improbable comeback victory for Serral. After stalling out the Golden Armada and finally getting the Protoss bank to run dry, Serral used burrowed Infestors and Neural Parasite to win in one of the most absurd finishing sequences in pro-SC2 history.
Serral's long-time European rival Reynor was the one who gave him his stiffest challenge, narrowly losing 2-3 in the upper-bracket semifinals. The Impish Italian even dared to play Protoss on the first map of Stargazers (apparently one of his most hated maps for ZvZ), but didn't get much of a chance to show his skills as he lost to an unscouted Nydus from Serral. Reynor switched back to Zerg for the rest of the matches, ending up losing 2-3. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but one must wonder what would have happened if Reynor had played Zerg all the way.
Although Serral came into TSL 9 as the HomeStory Cup 21 champion and one of the top title contenders, there were still some lingering questions about his form due to group stage losses he gave up to GuMiho and ShoWTimE, as well as his earlier under-the-cut finish in DreamHack: Europe. Now, after he's made such an imperious run to win his second major title of the summer, Serral looks to be definitively on top of the StarCraft II world again.
[Serral starts with a one-map advantage due to being the upper-bracket winner]
Game 1 - Moondance (Serral win): Maru opened with the 1-Mine + 6-Marine drop opener he has favored as of late, which got a decent amount of damage done by taking down four Drones. However, Serral deftly countered with an early-game Roach-Ravager strike, hitting before Maru had Stim, Tanks, or anything else that would help him on defense. This attack dealt massive damage to Maru's army and economy, and the follow-up attack was able to end the game.
Game 2 - Cosmic Sapphire (Maru win): Maru went for a proxy 2-Barracks Bunker-rush this time around, and had the good fortune to evade Serral's Overlord scouting entirely. This worked out quite nicely for Maru as he was able to kill 6 Drones with only light Marine investment, all while teching up back at home.
Once again, Serral looked to to counter-attack with Roach-Ravager, but this time Maru was well-prepared with Bunkers. The Zerg strike didn't do enough damage to narrow the lead, which in turn led to Maru winning with a straight-up Marine-Tank push at around the 10 minute mark.
Game 3 - Waterfall (Serral win): Game three saw things settle down compared to the initial two maps, with the two players easing into a 3-base vs 4-base macro situation in the early game (some light Medivac and Raven harass from Maru notwithstanding). The action really got started at around 7-minutes when Maru moved out with his first major Marine-Tank-Medivac army to lay siege to Serral's fourth base. Serral handled this situation beautifully, staving off the attack with Ling-Bane while also doing damage with a backdoor Baneling attack.
That put Serral in a fantastic position with a beter economy and a lot of map control, leaving Maru with no choice but to initiate his turtle protocol. Rather than look to crack the Terran defenses with high tech units, Serral decided to stay on mostly Hydra-Ling-Bane (with a little Viper support) and use his considerable resource bank and try and break through with sheer numbers. While many Zergs have seen such banks go up in smoke against Maru's unnatural defense (Serral himself has experienced this firsthand in previous matches), this time the Swarm was able to break the Terran line with repeated attacks and force the GG.
Game 4 - Data-C (Serral win): Game four played out somewhat similarly to game three early on, with the game quietly going into a 3-base vs 4-base macro scenario. Again, Maru started heating things up at around the 7-minutes, sending his Marines and Tanks to lay siege to Serral's outermost bases. But again, Serral defended beautifully with his Ling-Bane, putting himself in a comfortable position to play out a macro game. Maru himself was in okay shape due to a CC-first opener and lack of economic damage taken, but ultimately his decision was still to take up a defensive position and look to the late-game.
Even though Maru was able to start his turtle transition from a better situation than in game three, Serral still went for the same approach of crashing wave after wave of Hydra-Ling-Bane against the Terran defenses. But this time, he added Nydus Worms and Lurkers as well, giving him the threat of a backdoor attack. This actually ended up being quite decisive, forcing Maru to split his army up and open up holes for Hydra-Ling-Bane to exploit. Once more, non-stop waves of Zerg units were able to eventually overwhelm the Terran defenses, forcing the third and final GG out of Maru.
Serral vs ShoWTimE - Stargazers: This is an instant game of the year candidate, featuring a pretty great comeback from ShoWTimE followed by a f***ing insane comeback from Serral. Obviously, there were some mistakes made on both ends, but you don't get crazy comebacks if everyone plays perfectly. In terms of sheer entertainment value and WTF-factor, this is an all-time great game.
Maru vs ShoWTimE - Data-C: Add this one to the Maru's long list of "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?" games. ShoWTimE had the lead for a huge portion of this game, but Maru somehow managed to hang around and actually worry ShoWTimE by the end. While this game was probably always going to end in a ShoWTimE victory, it was a heck of a lot of fun getting to that ending.
ByuN vs Maru - Data-C: In this Maru game, he actually did end up pulling off the comeback after getting battered for over twenty minutes. While this is a pretty solid game, it does pale in comparison to some of the crazier games that involved ShoWTimE. So maybe watch this first and work your way up?
herO vs Maru - Inside and Out: This match was short and sweet, with herO overcoming an early-game deficit through smart aggression and great decision-making.
Was a bit strange to see the players in one room, without the noise dampening/canceling headsets. I was wondering if they could or couldn't hear the other player's clicks or noises. It certainly adds to the pressure to have the opponent so close. Maru and Byun had a nice chat between games, wish I could speak korean to understand them. Maybe in TSL10 we need a translator for this part of the broadcast as well this could be a fun addition to an event.
I was happy to see Steadfast was given opportunity to cast the grand finals, although I think he is better in solo (for now). WTF was that costume on Feardragon at the final ceremony? it was AMAZING
Good production. At least casters this time are less talking about annoying GOAT stuff or worshipping certain player to the extent that some audiences may get so irritated to watch. Maybe they have learnt from TSL8, don't simply judge before the match starts.
Love the production; the theme, montages, casters, ballon models, the carousel horse. More online/offline events like these in future pls!
I think although losing the grand finals, Maru’s deep run in the lower bracket is worth a mention too. Kind of foresee his loss but lots of great games for rewatching.
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
Actually yes, I'm glad you've noticed it after 12 years
anyway great tournament, loved the FPV parts and the picture in picture, also thanks for the crazy fast upload on the replays
my fav game from the tournament was the last game between Showtime and Serral, I've to watch the replay :D
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
Maru fanboy tears are so delicious :D
Personally I do think that the Queen is overtuned in ZvT like it was in ZvP before the transfuse nerf, but myself along with plenty of people in chat were a bit underwhelmed at Maru's composition choices.
Why the auto Ghost mode when in game 3 Serral was taking all sorts of heavy Widow Mine hits left and right and was flooding pure lings? I'm not so convinced that building Ghosts 3 games in a row against mass ling and then losing qualifies as, "See this MU is so imbalanced."
Maru needed to flood the map with mines, not Ghosts, mines were working, Ghosts were not.
That being said I stand by my statement, probably time for the Queen to get another round of nerfs, I mean one transfuse nerf and ZvP is more balanced then it's been in years, why not give the same love for ZvT?
I'm a Zerg player fwiw not hating on the Swarm lol
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
Maru fanboy tears are so delicious :D
Personally I do think that the Queen is overtuned in ZvT like it was in ZvP before the transfuse nerf, but myself along with plenty of people in chat were a bit underwhelmed at Maru's composition choices.
Why the auto Ghost mode when in game 3 Serral was taking all sorts of heavy Widow Mine hits left and right and was flooding pure lings? I'm not so convinced that building Ghosts 3 games in a row against mass ling and then losing qualifies as, "See this MU is so imbalanced."
Maru needed to flood the map with mines, not Ghosts, mines were working, Ghosts were not.
That being said I stand by my statement, probably time for the Queen to get another round of nerfs, I mean one transfuse nerf and ZvP is more balanced then it's been in years, why not give the same love for ZvT?
I'm a Zerg player fwiw not hating on the Swarm lol
Mines are good against Ling Bane but then you auto-lose to the Zerg morphing 15 lurkers at once because you can't build 10 siege tanks at once. That's why you have to pre-build Tanks. And Ghosts are definitely needed too
Serral played great in the final, congrats to him. That said, he didn't use any complicated tactics or engaged particularly well. He naively swarmed into Maru's prepared defense and still traded decently. A race with superior economy should not have units as versatile and cost-effective as the current state of queens (transfuse), banelings, vipers (abduct, parasitic bomb), and swarmhosts (infinite spawning units), it is an obvious major balance design flaw.
Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
solar said himself not many Koreans practiced for this tournament, and maru also said he is just going to play comfortably.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
solar said himself not many Koreans practiced for this tournament, and maru also said he is just going to play comfortably.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Serral is the greatest RTS player of all time. I do not think anyone has dominated the Aligulac rating for this long and he has won the most prize money of any SC2 player.
He is even ranked 29 in AOE4 for team games, even though he just play AOE4 on the side for fun.
On September 06 2022 01:56 MockHamill wrote: Serral is the greatest RTS player of all time. I do not think anyone has dominated the Aligulac rating for this long and he has won the most prize money of any SC2 player.
He is even ranked 29 in AOE4 for team games, even though he just play AOE4 on the side for fun.
Scratch that, I have also seen him DESTROY people at 5v5 DOTA2, he is the personification of the ultimate gaming gamer!
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Nah the Goat argument is between Rogue and Maru. Serral still doesn't have enough high-tier tournament wins....
... I can also play this game. Just accept this is down to subjective opinion and there is no 'objective Goat' atm.
On September 06 2022 01:56 MockHamill wrote: Serral is the greatest RTS player of all time. I do not think anyone has dominated the Aligulac rating for this long and he has won the most prize money of any SC2 player.
He is even ranked 29 in AOE4 for team games, even though he just play AOE4 on the side for fun.
Except for this. This is not down to subjective opinion because the RTS Goat is Flash and it isn't remotely close
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Nah the Goat argument is between Rogue and Maru. Serral still doesn't have enough high-tier tournament wins....
... I can also play this game. Just accept this is down to subjective opinion and there is no 'objective Goat' atm.
On September 06 2022 01:56 MockHamill wrote: Serral is the greatest RTS player of all time. I do not think anyone has dominated the Aligulac rating for this long and he has won the most prize money of any SC2 player.
He is even ranked 29 in AOE4 for team games, even though he just play AOE4 on the side for fun.
Except for this. This is not down to subjective opinion because the RTS Goat is Flash and it isn't remotely close
Nah, Flash played SC2 for 4 years and only won a single non-GSL/World Championship premier tournament. Never even made it to the playoffs in GSL.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Nah the Goat argument is between Rogue and Maru. Serral still doesn't have enough high-tier tournament wins....
... I can also play this game. Just accept this is down to subjective opinion and there is no 'objective Goat' atm.
On September 06 2022 01:56 MockHamill wrote: Serral is the greatest RTS player of all time. I do not think anyone has dominated the Aligulac rating for this long and he has won the most prize money of any SC2 player.
He is even ranked 29 in AOE4 for team games, even though he just play AOE4 on the side for fun.
Except for this. This is not down to subjective opinion because the RTS Goat is Flash and it isn't remotely close
Nah, Flash played SC2 for 4 years and only won a single non-GSL/World Championship premier tournament. Never even made it to the playoffs in GSL.
Flash's dominance in SC1 instantly wins him GOAT title for RTS. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of pro starcraft players (1 or 2) would agree.
Flash is not the greatest RTS player. He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players. So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote: Flash is not the greatest RTS player. He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players. So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.
BW was still the most competitive RTS of all time and being the undisputed GOAT there qualifies you as RTS GOAT.
I did not witness / doesn’t watch much BW so for me Maru has been the most impressive RTS player of all time but I only watched sc2 and a bit of Warcraft 3.
One has to wonder though, if younger promising players that went into sc2 and stayed in it like INno / Zest would have kept playing BW (well all of kespa), would they have surpassed Flash?
Because prime INno during HotS was a scary monster
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
Maru still had a bunch of Ro4s and Ro8s during that era, and more than any other player except perhaps INnoVation. Yes, the GSLs were harder back then, which is why the bunch of Ro4s and Ro8s makes up for the lack of a GSL win. And SSL is worth just as much as a GSL, it's the exact same pool of player except it started at Ro16. And his OSL win which replaced GSL that season. And putting Taeja on that list... Jesus Why am I answering seriously to a troll, how low have I fallen. I'm not even a Maru fan
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 both during the hardest era. That's also when he was the best proleague player and regularly the last Terran standing in GSL during some seasons that were rather atrocious for Terran. He then won a GSL in 2019 got 3 more 2nd places and won a bunch of smaller stuff I already mentioned in the last couple years. MC/Nestea/Taeja/CLassic/Dear/Rain are all no where near Maru in overall accomplishment even completely disregarding everything he did in 2018. That leaves Life/Dark/Rogue/Mvp/Inno.
There is no meaningful distinction in terms of difficulty to win between OSL/SSL and GSL. They had similar prize pools (bit less for SSL but only because it didn't pay 17-32nd which doesn't make a tournament harder to win) and near identical formats and player pools. The OSL he won was a straight up GSL replacement for that season anyways.
It's especially funny that you are arguing this while simultaneously arguing Serral is the goat. You're basically arguing all the stuff Maru won the last year or two is worthless if you really think those players have more accomplishments than him. If you think Last Chance/Season Finals/KOB are worthless then more than half of Serral's trophies are worthless including this TSL.
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote: Flash is not the greatest RTS player. He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players. So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.
BW was still the most competitive RTS of all time and being the undisputed GOAT there qualifies you as RTS GOAT.
I did not witness / doesn’t watch much BW so for me Maru has been the most impressive RTS player of all time but I only watched sc2 and a bit of Warcraft 3.
One has to wonder though, if younger promising players that went into sc2 and stayed in it like INno / Zest would have kept playing BW (well all of kespa), would they have surpassed Flash?
Because prime INno during HotS was a scary monster
Flash is the goat BW hands down and it’s not even close
Goat RTS of all time? Nah not even close
There is a big difference between competitive and difficult
BW is not the most difficult RTS ( most popular? Sure)
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 both during the hardest era. That's also when he was the best proleague player and regularly the last Terran standing in GSL during some seasons that were rather atrocious for Terran. He then won a GSL in 2019 got 3 more 2nd places and won a bunch of smaller stuff I already mentioned in the last couple years. MC/Nestea/Taeja/CLassic/Dear/Rain are all no where near Maru in overall accomplishment even completely disregarding everything he did in 2018. That leaves Life/Dark/Rogue/Mvp/Inno.
There is no meaningful distinction in terms of difficulty to win between OSL/SSL and GSL. They had similar prize pools (bit less for SSL but only because it didn't pay 17-32nd which doesn't make a tournament harder to win) and near identical formats and player pools. The OSL he won was a straight up GSL replacement for that season anyways.
It's especially funny that you are arguing this while simultaneously arguing Serral is the goat. You're basically arguing all the stuff Maru won the last year or two is worthless if you really think those players have more accomplishments than him. If you think Last Chance/Season Finals/KOB are worthless then more than half of Serral's trophies are worthless including this TSL.
Serral has two world championships the hardest and most prestige. A dream and ultimate goal for all sc2 players
Serral went, conquer, and left with 2 GSL’s. Both path to victory were harder than any of Maru’s GSL
Whichever Serral IS the big dog. Whichever tournament he attends instantly becomes S tier
At the end of day Goat is subjective. Someone can have Naniwa as Goat (but who really cares at the end of the day)
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 both during the hardest era. That's also when he was the best proleague player and regularly the last Terran standing in GSL during some seasons that were rather atrocious for Terran. He then won a GSL in 2019 got 3 more 2nd places and won a bunch of smaller stuff I already mentioned in the last couple years. MC/Nestea/Taeja/CLassic/Dear/Rain are all no where near Maru in overall accomplishment even completely disregarding everything he did in 2018. That leaves Life/Dark/Rogue/Mvp/Inno.
There is no meaningful distinction in terms of difficulty to win between OSL/SSL and GSL. They had similar prize pools (bit less for SSL but only because it didn't pay 17-32nd which doesn't make a tournament harder to win) and near identical formats and player pools. The OSL he won was a straight up GSL replacement for that season anyways.
It's especially funny that you are arguing this while simultaneously arguing Serral is the goat. You're basically arguing all the stuff Maru won the last year or two is worthless if you really think those players have more accomplishments than him. If you think Last Chance/Season Finals/KOB are worthless then more than half of Serral's trophies are worthless including this TSL.
Serral has two world championships the hardest and most prestige. A dream and ultimate goal for all sc2 players
Serral went, conquer, and left with 2 GSL’s. Both path to victory were harder than any of Maru’s GSL
Whichever Serral IS the big dog. Whichever tournament he attends instantly becomes S tier
So why isn't Rogue the GOAT according to your criteria?
Lol at these clueless guys doubting FlaSh... Ask any korean about him, doesn't matter if they don't play BW or they play AoE or LoL, if they think he's GOAT. Why you think he's called God? For those who think Terran on BW is OP look up ASL10 - he almost got into finals playing random lol.
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?
Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.
Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him
The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap
I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship
Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.
Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment
Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say) Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time
Not the water down GSLs Maru won
Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)
Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 both during the hardest era. That's also when he was the best proleague player and regularly the last Terran standing in GSL during some seasons that were rather atrocious for Terran. He then won a GSL in 2019 got 3 more 2nd places and won a bunch of smaller stuff I already mentioned in the last couple years. MC/Nestea/Taeja/CLassic/Dear/Rain are all no where near Maru in overall accomplishment even completely disregarding everything he did in 2018. That leaves Life/Dark/Rogue/Mvp/Inno.
There is no meaningful distinction in terms of difficulty to win between OSL/SSL and GSL. They had similar prize pools (bit less for SSL but only because it didn't pay 17-32nd which doesn't make a tournament harder to win) and near identical formats and player pools. The OSL he won was a straight up GSL replacement for that season anyways.
It's especially funny that you are arguing this while simultaneously arguing Serral is the goat. You're basically arguing all the stuff Maru won the last year or two is worthless if you really think those players have more accomplishments than him. If you think Last Chance/Season Finals/KOB are worthless then more than half of Serral's trophies are worthless including this TSL.
Serral has two world championships the hardest and most prestige. A dream and ultimate goal for all sc2 players
Serral went, conquer, and left with 2 GSL’s. Both path to victory were harder than any of Maru’s GSL
Whichever Serral IS the big dog. Whichever tournament he attends instantly becomes S tier
So why isn't Rogue the GOAT according to your criteria?
I already mentioned Rogue and Serral are the clear top 2 for me.
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote: Flash is not the greatest RTS player. He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players. So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.
So? So if Serral switched to AoE at one point and became a very good player but not a dominant one that would also invalidate his sc2 achievements by your logic? That's complete bullshit, Flash won premier tournaments in 2 different RTS games, that's a plus and not a minus compared to players who only won in one game.
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote: Flash is not the greatest RTS player. He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players. So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.
BW was still the most competitive RTS of all time and being the undisputed GOAT there qualifies you as RTS GOAT.
I did not witness / doesn’t watch much BW so for me Maru has been the most impressive RTS player of all time but I only watched sc2 and a bit of Warcraft 3.
One has to wonder though, if younger promising players that went into sc2 and stayed in it like INno / Zest would have kept playing BW (well all of kespa), would they have surpassed Flash?
Because prime INno during HotS was a scary monster
Flash is the goat BW hands down and it’s not even close
Goat RTS of all time? Nah not even close
There is a big difference between competitive and difficult
BW is not the most difficult RTS ( most popular? Sure)
Difficulty doesn't really mean anything when playing against other human players because the game will always be as difficult as the player you're playing against. In terms of competitiveness though... wooow, the BW scene in 2008-2012 was so much more competitive than the sc2 scene today it's not even funny
Congratulations to Joona Sotala on finally claiming that TSL championship. It's been a heck of a year for the Finnish Phenom with it being parallel to his 2018 and 2019 runs -- this year with claiming IEM Katowice, HomeStory Cup XXI and now TSL 9. Maru hasn't defeated Serral in a competitive series since King of Battles 2 in 2021.
Sad that Clem made another early exit for the tournament. Solar was dominant and showed flashes of brilliance; good job to ShowTime for making it that far as well. Could have been a different outcome if Reynor didn't play Protoss in that first game vs. Serral, but ah well.
Also Twitch chat was going bonkers over the "balloon trophy" and Serral taking a while to cut the cake. Wasn't a fan of the joke balloon trophy- with all of the sponsors such as Shopify, Secretlab, etc. you would think there would have been a nicer-looking and permanent trophy lolol. Also wonder how hard the cake truly was.
Excited tor TSL 10 maybe in 2023. Would like for Clem to make a deeper run. Also MaxPax needs to make an in-person appearance at some point.
Edit: That game four of Serral-ShowTime is definitely one of the best games of 2022; but definitely one of the best series-ending games for sure. That 0-4 mark truly doesn't explain the whole story of how close some of those games were.
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote: a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?
and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.
I absolutely feel you. I have always felt like saying that PvZ is not being an easy matchup is not just a bit of an understatement - both in bw and sc2. Due to all my friends playing protoss in our team games in sc2, I switched to terran and TvZ always felt "a bit hard" as well. However, I simply cannot deny that Serral often seems like he is on a whole other level of play in his games. There is a reason why Serral is at the top of sc2 earnings. There is a reason why he is often referred to as the sc2 goat. And there is a reason why he is able to dominate Maru after Maru easily beat decent zergs such as Solar, Ragnarok and Lambo, and advanced over the perpetual title contenteder that is Reynor. When Serral keeps on winning top level tournaments; when there are only a handful of other zerg top level contenders, and when Serral manages to distinguish himself from them, his domination cannot be simply attributed to some possibly existing inbalance. Serral feels like and automaton that is simply in a league of his own.
On September 06 2022 12:08 luxon wrote: wtf why were spoilers posted immediately after the event ended, they usually wait a week...
As a rule of thumb, do not come to a starcraft esport news site if you don't want to be spoiled about the results of a tournament. Everyone does that, why couldn't you?
GGs to Serral, hope he can get challenged a bit in the next tournaments. Best argument for goat is that no Serral fan is ever stressed about him losing whereas Maru's fan are always but clenched.
I'm a bit sad cause for some time I thought Clem could take over the torch and become the future of terran but we've yet to see another T excel in all categories
On September 05 2022 23:08 sirokop wrote: A race with superior economy should not have units as versatile and cost-effective as the current state of queens (transfuse), banelings, vipers (abduct, parasitic bomb), and swarmhosts (infinite spawning units), it is an obvious major balance design flaw.
i would agree. but there against speaks the Zerg has no real great superior ecco. therefore zerg needs cost-efficient units. Toss is mostly on par with Zerg ecco. Terran possibly ecco diff, but 1. Terran has the most efficient units 2. Mule therefore equal on in ecco ...
Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.
The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.
Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.
On September 06 2022 21:35 Fango wrote: Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.
The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.
Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.
Afaik there is no vetoing as you propose. Both players choose maps - and the least liked for both won't be played because of UB +1 map advantage. Sounds quite fair to me.
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote: All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.
Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option. But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...
Always entertaining to read the comments when a korean player has lost the final to a European (that is normally Serral or Reynor...).
"opponent's race is broken" "tournament wasn't important enough for Koreans" "opponents win doesn't count, if he has never won a GSL" "in previous times competition/quality of game was so much higher (...the good old times...)"
On September 06 2022 22:06 Tommy131313 wrote: Always entertaining to read the comments when a korean player has lost the final to a European (that is normally Serral or Reynor...).
"opponent's race is broken" "tournament wasn't important enough for Koreans" "opponents win doesn't count, if he has never won a GSL" "in previous times competition/quality of game was so much higher (...the good old times...)"
Did I forget something?
First point is true but that's always the case when a Zerg wins a tournament. 2nd and 3rd point you're just making up as I haven't seen it anywhere and 4th point I haven't read here after the finals but is objectively true
On September 06 2022 21:35 Fango wrote: Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.
The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.
Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.
Agreed, the bo5 into bo3 if the UB player loses format is a lot better. It makes more sense (every player is allowed to lose one series) and feels like much less of a mountain to climb. Even if the result wouldn't have been any different this time, coming back from 1-2 and then winning a fresh bo3 feels a lot more doable than coming back from 1-3.
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote: All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.
Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option. But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...
And that's exactly why zerg has overlords
Zerg vision on creep (coupled with creep's speed bonus) is what makes it much easier to always be prepared / in the right position for any attack mid to late game without risking an actual unit (or any other real trade-off, really) for that piece of intel.
It also makes it easier to spread creep itself (since, again, you don't need a unit there to give vision).
But I digress... Serral is obviously the best player right now anyways. I just don't find it coincidental, however, that most other top contenders happen to be zerg, too.
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote: All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.
Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option. But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...
And that's exactly why zerg has overlords
Zerg vision on creep (coupled with creep's speed bonus) is what makes it much easier to always be prepared / in the right position for any attack mid to late game without risking an actual unit (or any other real trade-off, really) for that piece of intel.
It also makes it easier to spread creep itself (since, again, you don't need a unit there to give vision).
But I digress... Serral is obviously the best player right now anyways. I just don't find it coincidental, however, that most other top contenders happen to be zerg, too.
Back in BW T had scans and P had observers (just like their sc2 counterparts), and clearly Z was doing fine without needing creeps to also provide vision. I do wonder why Blizzard felt the need to give sc2 Z another form of vision when imo it wasn't needed
Back in BW T had scans and P had observers (just like their sc2 counterparts), and clearly Z was doing fine without needing creeps to also provide vision. I do wonder why Blizzard felt the need to give sc2 Z another form of vision when imo it wasn't needed.
Because StarCraft 2 is a completely different game, and one that is faster paced. Cliffs and terrain hurdles are far less important. Medivacs can boost and heal armies, warp prisms are insanely good. Removing vision from creep would require an entire balance patch of Zerg fixes.
Creep is almost another resource or territory to fight over, it’s a very good addition. The recent creep nerf(s) have been good though, it was too strong.
On September 06 2022 22:06 Tommy131313 wrote: Always entertaining to read the comments when a korean player has lost the final to a European (that is normally Serral or Reynor...).
"opponent's race is broken" "tournament wasn't important enough for Koreans" "opponents win doesn't count, if he has never won a GSL" "in previous times competition/quality of game was so much higher (...the good old times...)"
Did I forget something?
First point is true but that's always the case when a Zerg wins a tournament. 2nd and 3rd point you're just making up as I haven't seen it anywhere and 4th point I haven't read here after the finals but is objectively true
someone literally said that solar said that Maru was taking this tourney not as serious and 'many koreans didn't practice' so the 2nd point stands
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote: Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.
solar said himself not many Koreans practiced for this tournament, and maru also said he is just going to play comfortably.
On September 07 2022 07:21 pandorasheep wrote: When will people realize that Koreans don't care about SC2 anymore?
I didn't realise we was just making stuff up now.
Congrats to Serral for another decent showing. It's nice to see the GOAT argument is still going strong with attacking other races, balance whining, etc.
Am I the only one actually enjoying the state of the game at the moment?
"This person didn't perform well at X tournament. Therefore bad."
Well this goes for Serral too, all players have ups and downs and moments when they go pure tryhard. It's the nature of the game.
On September 07 2022 07:21 pandorasheep wrote: When will people realize that Koreans don't care about SC2 anymore?
I didn't realise we was just making stuff up now.
Congrats to Serral for another decent showing. It's nice to see the GOAT argument is still going strong with attacking other races, balance whining, etc.
Am I the only one actually enjoying the state of the game at the moment?
"This person didn't perform well at X tournament. Therefore bad."
Well this goes for Serral too, all players have ups and downs and moments when they go pure tryhard. It's the nature of the game.
On September 07 2022 07:21 pandorasheep wrote: When will people realize that Koreans don't care about SC2 anymore?
I didn't realise we was just making stuff up now.
Congrats to Serral for another decent showing. It's nice to see the GOAT argument is still going strong with attacking other races, balance whining, etc.
Am I the only one actually enjoying the state of the game at the moment?
"This person didn't perform well at X tournament. Therefore bad."
Well this goes for Serral too, all players have ups and downs and moments when they go pure tryhard. It's the nature of the game.
Serral doesnt have downs.
He has lower ups
Serral's down is top 4 finishes and/or lower brackets wins lol. The guy is just a monster
Back in BW T had scans and P had observers (just like their sc2 counterparts), and clearly Z was doing fine without needing creeps to also provide vision. I do wonder why Blizzard felt the need to give sc2 Z another form of vision when imo it wasn't needed.
Because StarCraft 2 is a completely different game, and one that is faster paced. Cliffs and terrain hurdles are far less important. Medivacs can boost and heal armies, warp prisms are insanely good. Removing vision from creep would require an entire balance patch of Zerg fixes.
Creep is almost another resource or territory to fight over, it’s a very good addition. The recent creep nerf(s) have been good though, it was too strong.
Creep absolutely needs to stay in the game, for sure. My only issue is with vision and alert giving creep tumors.
Really nice event, fantastic production value, and Feardragon absolutely nailed it as a host. I dunno what it is, but he's so fundamentally likable.
One caveat would be that the bracket contest seems to have kind of been swept under the rug - it going up barely 24h before the start of the event and no updates on the progress as well as no explanation on how things would be adjusted after players got swapped out after losing was a little disappointing, even if my bracket itself didn't have a bat's chance in hell anymore when this all unfolded. It just stands out quite a bit compared to the excellence of the rest of it.
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
Watch the games again thanks
Apparently hydra vipers and infestors are tier 1 units now?
If you gonna troll and complain at least do your homework first
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
Watch the games again thanks
Apparently hydra vipers and infestors are tier 1 units now?
If you gonna troll and complain at least do your homework first
saw the games, how can someone be trolling with a big post and common sense?
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
I think one of the problems with this fast remax style is how easy it is for zergs on LotV to manage larva, maybe they should bring back the way it was on HotS? That and the rapid fire production + not so difficult micro, makes this strat very effective and not particularly hard to execute. But indeed those Serral vs Maru games were a bit painful to watch.
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
I think one of the problems with this fast remax style is how easy it is for zergs on LotV to manage larva, maybe they should bring back the way it was on HotS? That and the rapid fire production + not so difficult micro, makes this strat very effective and not particularly hard to execute. But indeed those Serral vs Maru games were a bit painful to watch.
Queen is the issue, i dont remember last time zerg invested money on static defenses like the used to do in Broodwar, now they just go mass queen and that all, their economy doesn't suffer in any meaningful way.
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
You mean the game where Maru crushed that pure Ling-Bane army mostly with Ghosts because Ghosts literally counter every Zerg unit? That was a pure eco-win and if Maru would have defended 1-2 more times, Serral definetly would have thrown that game...
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
You mean the game where Maru crushed that pure Ling-Bane army mostly with Ghosts because Ghosts literally counter every Zerg unit? That was a pure eco-win and if Maru would have defended 1-2 more times, Serral definetly would have thrown that game...
In the end its just about the Factory production vs the Zerg remax of Lingbane Hydra. And yeah, things would be different had Maru get a good mine hit here and there. If there is a coming buff for Terran, I think its better if you can build a single Tank from the Reactor Factory as long as there is a TechLab Factory elsewhere.
Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote: All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.
Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option. But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...
And that's exactly why zerg has overlords
Zerg vision on creep (coupled with creep's speed bonus) is what makes it much easier to always be prepared / in the right position for any attack mid to late game without risking an actual unit (or any other real trade-off, really) for that piece of intel.
It also makes it easier to spread creep itself (since, again, you don't need a unit there to give vision).
But I digress... Serral is obviously the best player right now anyways. I just don't find it coincidental, however, that most other top contenders happen to be zerg, too.
Back in BW T had scans and P had observers (just like their sc2 counterparts), and clearly Z was doing fine without needing creeps to also provide vision. I do wonder why Blizzard felt the need to give sc2 Z another form of vision when imo it wasn't needed
On September 11 2022 03:09 BonitiilloO wrote: why i dont still understand
How a zerg can beat a Terran Mixed units aka Tanks, Depots, mines, Marines, ghost, Planetary frotress with just Tier 1 units AKA lings and banelings?
that pretty insane and who ever say its ok is kinda wrong there was a game where Serral attacked Maru with the unit describe and Serral was back to 200 in just 1minute while Maru still was trying to figure out what happened and he was down to like 150ish supply
Zerg economy i just way to strong late game and early game is basically impossible to do damage to then due to the efficient queen
queen needs to be weaker or increase their supply count somehow its not making a lot of sense to me.
You mean the game where Maru crushed that pure Ling-Bane army mostly with Ghosts because Ghosts literally counter every Zerg unit? That was a pure eco-win and if Maru would have defended 1-2 more times, Serral definetly would have thrown that game...
In the end its just about the Factory production vs the Zerg remax of Lingbane Hydra. And yeah, things would be different had Maru get a good mine hit here and there. If there is a coming buff for Terran, I think its better if you can build a single Tank from the Reactor Factory as long as there is a TechLab Factory elsewhere.
Reactored Tanks sounds pretty broken, but it does seem that build times should be adjusted given how much larger the maps have gotten. By the time T gets to Z or P's base, they have an extra round of units on some of these maps vs. older ones.
On September 11 2022 20:37 tskarzyn wrote: Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
yes, that is another thing why everysingle map needs to have ovie hiding spots?
To me Serral has been the greatest Zerg for a while. Due to the nature of asymmetric gameplay, I don't think it's fair to say that any player is the greatest overall.
On September 11 2022 20:37 tskarzyn wrote: Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
yes, that is another thing why everysingle map needs to have ovie hiding spots?
Because Zerg needs to save 100 gas from Overlord Speed for other upgrade elsewhere, lol.
On September 11 2022 20:37 tskarzyn wrote: Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
yes, that is another thing why everysingle map needs to have ovie hiding spots?
Because Zerg needs to save 100 gas from Overlord Speed for other upgrade elsewhere, lol.
Because Hatchery build time is reserved for making Queens
On September 11 2022 20:37 tskarzyn wrote: Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
yes, that is another thing why everysingle map needs to have ovie hiding spots?
Because Zerg needs to save 100 gas from Overlord Speed for other upgrade elsewhere, lol.
Because Hatchery build time is reserved for making Queens
Ha yes. IMO, scouting should cost resources, attention, or both. Ovies camping on hiding spots costs neither. It is the only "free lunch" I can think of in SC2.
On September 11 2022 20:37 tskarzyn wrote: Clear GOAT at this point. We've never seen this consistency.
That said, do queens + ovie hiding spots + creep give Z too much predictability? Queens defend almost every aggro opener, so why not eliminate Ovie hiding spots and force Zerg to scout with units or ovie sacs?
yes, that is another thing why everysingle map needs to have ovie hiding spots?
Because Zerg needs to save 100 gas from Overlord Speed for other upgrade elsewhere, lol.
Because Hatchery build time is reserved for making Queens
Ha yes. IMO, scouting should cost resources, attention, or both. Ovies camping on hiding spots costs neither. It is the only "free lunch" I can think of in SC2.
map designer needs get this concept away, all maps have this overlord hiding spot by default when it should not be.
EPT
Liquipedia![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/TSL9/ro12finalbracket.png)
this could be a fun addition to an event.![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/20k1nqJ.png)
