The round-of-six is the most unique addition to the new 2022 Code S format, providing an intermediary stage between the RO10 round robin groups and the RO4 playoffs.
Trap and Dark, the two 1st place finishers from the RO10 groups, have been directly seeded into the RO4. The 2nd and 3rd place finishers from each group must now compete in the RO6 to try and claim the remaining two RO4 spots. The format is essentially a mini-double elimination bracket, with the 3rd place finishers starting in the losers' bracket while the 2nd place finishers start in the winners' bracket.
For me, Creator has unquestionably been the 'main character' of Code S Season 1 so far. Back in 2012, he was one of the next generation stars who seemed destined for greatness, standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of TaeJa and Life. However, Creator's actual fate was most cruel, and he would spend the better part of a decade mired on the fringes of relevance. The late career revival he's enjoyed over the last half-year was wholly unexpected, and even if he was to be eliminated here in the RO6, his run will have been one of the most delightful StarCraft II stories in recent memory. Still, as long as I'm caught up in warm and fuzzy feelings, maybe I could dare hope for a bit more…?
Unfortunately, hope has run up against one of its greatest natural predators: Rogue. It feels like the three-time world/global champion's purpose for existing is to put down fan-favorites, be it denying soO a taste of gold at BlizzCon or slamming the door on what seemed like Maru's best ever chance of attaining the G5L. While Rogue was recently foiled by Serral at IEM Katowice, you have to think that means he's going to make up for it by ending this Creator fairy tale in the GSL.
The head-to-head certainly makes the outlook for Creator seem incredibly bleak, as he's 3-21 in all-time matches against Rogue (10-41 map score in those matches) and currently in the midst of a four match losing streak. On the other hand, Creator has made up a LOT of ground on Rogue in the last six months and their Aligulac.com ratings are now shockingly close with both players in the 2900's. In fact, the Aligulac formula only considers Rogue a marginal favorite with a 55.92% chance to win—I've definitely called such odds coin-flips in previous previews.
Of course, our usual caveats about Aligulac.com ratings apply—doubly so when it comes to Rogue. He's the only player for whom I totally buy the 'not trying online' excuse, and it certainly hasn't looked like he's been trying that hard from all the losses he's giving up in various online cups (barely managing a 60%+ ZvP win-rate in the last six months). Conversely, a lot of Creator's PvZ rating climb was due to his performances in those cups, making this current GSL run the first time he's really got big PvZ wins in a high-stakes setting.
However, if Rogue's reputation for being a killer in the clutch is the reason we tend to overlook his occasionally poor online results, it has to be mentioned that his aura of offline clutchness took an enormous hit in the prior season of Code S. Zest handed him his first ever loss in an offline BO7 match, and in a PvZ at that. Also, just going by the eye-test, I haven't been so impressed with Rogue's ZvP this season. The underdog NightMare gave him way too much trouble in the RO20, while Trap beat him very convincingly in the RO10 (Rogue only took a map thanks to positional luck on the four-player map of Nautilus II). On the other hand, Creator is looking like a very solid, macro-oriented Protoss. There's almost a Zest-like quality to him—he can commit some really bad mistakes here and there, but overall, he makes enough good big-picture decisions to be able to win the larger war.
While I think this match is pretty close in terms of raw ability, I'm predicting Rogue to win due to the external factors. Even if Rogue's vaunted clutch reputation has taken a hit, and even if Creator has made huge strides in overcoming his nervousness issues in the AfreecaTV studio, there are just too many years of GSL history telling me that Rogue is the massive favorite in an important match.
Damn, this season of Code S has really given us an overabundance of great individual narratives! If not for Creator, I could have picked either RagnaroK or DongRaeGu as the feel-good story of the season (shoutout to Ryung as well).
While DongRaeGu has already shown us his veteran savvy by making a handful of deep Code S runs since his return from military service, I can't help but smile at each extra time the 30-year-old Zerg shows us a glimmer of his old greatness. Similarly, seeing RagnaroK make a deep major tournament run isn't an entirely new experience. However, it feels like he's turned a corner in this season of Code S, displaying build order-crafting and mind-gaming abilities we'd never seen before. I don't want to jump to conclusions now, but I feel like RagnaroK is establishing the foundations to have sustained GSL success going forward.
In a quaint twist of fate, the two must now overcome their mutual worst match-up as they face off with their tournament lives on the line. Going by Aligulac.com ratings, RagnaroK and DRG are two of the more uneven Zergs in terms of match-up strengths, with their ZvZ's trailing behind their ZvT and ZvP. Indeed, ZvZ had nothing to do with their success this season—RagnaroK lost his only ZvZ against Rogue in the RO10, whereas DRG lost two ZvZ series to Dark in both the RO20 and RO10. Aligulac actually thinks these two are about equally mediocre at ZvZ, giving RagnaroK a marginal edge with a 57.95% chance to win.
Amusingly enough, both players seem to be very well-aware that ZvZ is their weakness, and tried to overcome that weakness with all-ins in their earlier matches. RagnaroK didn't play a single standard game in his 1-2 against Rogue, going for some kind of deception into an all-in on two maps and being the victim of an all-in on the remaining map (although I imagine he would have gone for another cheese if Rogue hadn't shot first). As for DRG, he tried to play Dark straight-up in their RO20 match, only to get thoroughly outplayed. DRG changed course with a duo of all-ins in their RO10 rematch (including a proxy-Hatchery) but still couldn't overcome Dark in the end. There's potential that this match devolves into a chaotic but entertaining cheese-fest, including dueling 14-pool base trades and similar sorts of nonsense. I'm certainly wishing for that scenario. However, it could also be the case that both players go into the match thinking "this guy's ZvZ is weak enough that I can play him straight-up" and deliver a fairly vanilla, macro-oriented series as well.
While ZvZ can be unpredictable, I'm favoring RagnaroK by a hair. He's just been so well-prepared throughout this entire tournament run, not only planning strategies and build orders for a specific match, but also plotting mind-games between matches knowing that his opponents will have watched his previous games.
Prediction: RagnaroK 3 - 2 DongRaeGu
Decider Match: TBD vs TBD
I'll just go through my thoughts on all the potential scenarios briefly.
RagnaroK vs Creator: I give Creator an advantage in macro games, but I doubt RagnaroK is going to want to play Creator straight-up. Creator isn't great at crisis management or micro in low-unit count scenarios, so I fear for him if RagnaroK decides to get cheesy.
DongRaegu vs Creator: Creator just looked much better overall in their previous RO10 match, with DRG only winning the game where Creator made the huge mistake of losing a Prism with two Disruptors in the early game. I can't completely discount the possibility that Creator will falter under the pressure of the moment and commit such an error again, but I think he's beyond such dramatic collapses now.
Rogue vs RagnaroK/DRG: Rogue is favored by basically every criteria against DRG/RagnaroK, be it head-to-head record, GSL resume, Aligulac.com rating, TL.net Liquibet voting, or just my gut feeling. Rogue has played some very close BO5 series against supposedly weaker opponents in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these go all five games.
Given my initial predictions of Rogue defeating Creator and RagnaroK taking down DongRaeGu, that would leave us with Creator and RagnaroK facing off in the final match. I would favor Creator to advance if he could somehow goad RagnaroK into playing straight-up games, but I don't think that will happen.
Even before RagnaroK changed up the way he prepares for matches, ZvP was already a match-up where he was prone to going all-in or deploying some kind of tricky strategy. While Creator is much improved overall, I still have some doubts about both his early game micro and his ability to adapt to unexpected situations. As mentioned above, Creator's strength is making all of the right big picture decisions so he can put himself in a position to A-move you to death. Unfortunately for Creator, I think RagnaroK is perfectly equipped to take that strength away.
Final prediction: Rogue and RagnaroK advance to the RO4.
On April 24 2022 17:51 opterown wrote: Do we know which match winner will play Trap or Dark yet?
If Rogue wins vs Creator, he plays Dark. If Creator wins vs Rogue, he plays Trap. Basically whoever advances through the upper bracket plays the person who wasn't in their group. Whoever wins lower bracket takes the remaining spot.
Also, this Ro6 phase is really actually a pretty neat treat. You'd think the Ro10 Round Robin format with everyone fighting each other would already be enough to see which 4 players should advance to the Ro4.
But the Ro6 gives us MANY more games and matchups, and lets players compete with the other group briefly before solidifying and finalizing the Top 4! The 2nd seed player has 2 chances and only needs to win 1 match to make the Top 4; winning the winner's match or if they lose that, winning the "final" match. The 3rd seed player has 1 chance to make the Top 4, and has to win both the elimination match and the "final" match.
All these matches, just to determine which of the Top 6 should reach the Top 4. It doesn't seem this will necessarily determine seeding at all if both players who advance to Top 4 were in the same RR group; for example regardless of who wins between Creator and Rogue, if both Creator and Rogue make it out, I feel they will still seed Rogue to fight Dark and Creator to fight Trap, right? So you don't rematch with the same group. Now, if say Rogue beats Creator and Ragnarok beats DRG and Creator to advance, then they will try to reward Rogue with a better "seed" into the Top4, and give Ragnarok the "tougher" opponent? (According to the group/RR seeding, which is also based on GSL points I think).
This is why at first when I thought this round was Bo3s, I was totally fine with that, because this was already not a super necessary phase of the tourny, we already know who the Top 4 are from RR but it's giving another chance for the 3rd seeds to make it out. It's mostly a nice bonus to give us more matches and players more chances to solidify their place in the tournament! And this realization is what's making me love this GSL format this season even more, on top of RR itself just being a great format. This phase helps give a bit more of a climax/resolution to the RR stage and helps bridge it to the super serious Ro4.
On April 24 2022 19:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now, if say Rogue beats Creator and Ragnarok beats DRG and Creator to advance, then they will try to reward Rogue with a better "seed" into the Top4, and give Ragnarok the "tougher" opponent? (According to the group/RR seeding, which is also based on GSL points I think).
Rogue will always play Dark if he advances and Creator will always play Trap if he advances. That's set.
On April 24 2022 19:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now, if say Rogue beats Creator and Ragnarok beats DRG and Creator to advance, then they will try to reward Rogue with a better "seed" into the Top4, and give Ragnarok the "tougher" opponent? (According to the group/RR seeding, which is also based on GSL points I think).
Rogue will always play Dark if he advances and Creator will always play Trap if he advances. That's set.
Thanks for the confirmation!!
So if say Rogue and Ragnarok advance, I guess Ragnarok will fight Trap, and having to fight someone from his group is just a "consequence", whereas Rogue is "rewarded" with fighting Dark / someone from the other group?
I'm really hoping Creator wins, I think he has a ~60% chance judging from his RR play, if he does then I think he has a chance vs Trap since he'd have time to prepare!! So excited.
Holy shit can Creator really make it to the GFs... Also imagine if Rogue beats Dark, I don't think Creator could beat Dark but maybe he can beat Rogue??? Holy shit.
On April 24 2022 19:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now, if say Rogue beats Creator and Ragnarok beats DRG and Creator to advance, then they will try to reward Rogue with a better "seed" into the Top4, and give Ragnarok the "tougher" opponent? (According to the group/RR seeding, which is also based on GSL points I think).
Rogue will always play Dark if he advances and Creator will always play Trap if he advances. That's set.
Thanks for the confirmation!!
So if say Rogue and Ragnarok advance, I guess Ragnarok will fight Trap, and having to fight someone from his group is just a "consequence", whereas Rogue is "rewarded" with fighting Dark / someone from the other group?
I'm really hoping Creator wins, I think he has a ~60% chance judging from his RR play, if he does then I think he has a chance vs Trap since he'd have time to prepare!! So excited.
Holy shit can Creator really make it to the GFs... Also imagine if Rogue beats Dark, I don't think Creator could beat Dark but maybe he can beat Rogue??? Holy shit.
Winner of the 2nd seed match will always play the 1st seed of the other group
If 3rd seed of the same group also advance, he will play the 1st seed of his group
This is possibly one of the most telegraphed brackets we have ever seen. Anyone thinking that a non-Rogue player will win is on copium. In any case, this is all irrelevant for the Terran struggle for equality that is the only way that Starcraft 2 can be saved.
While another trophhy for Dark would be really cool, I hope Creator can do it. Back in the days, he always seemed like that guy that is just one step away from greatness, but then he fell off (not even sure if he did his military service or if he just dropped it). So him coming out of the gate storming like that wold be really amazing.
Everything points to another easy Rogue victory of the whole tournament. Tomorrow I expect Rogue&Creator to advance. I will be rooting for Trap to win it all but I dont think he can win a bo7 final against either Rogue or Dark...
It's going to end up as another Dark vs Rogue classic. One thing we can say as a positive is that this might be one of the greatest and most underrated rivalries in all of SC2.
On April 24 2022 19:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Now, if say Rogue beats Creator and Ragnarok beats DRG and Creator to advance, then they will try to reward Rogue with a better "seed" into the Top4, and give Ragnarok the "tougher" opponent? (According to the group/RR seeding, which is also based on GSL points I think).
Rogue will always play Dark if he advances and Creator will always play Trap if he advances. That's set.
Thanks for the confirmation!!
So if say Rogue and Ragnarok advance, I guess Ragnarok will fight Trap, and having to fight someone from his group is just a "consequence", whereas Rogue is "rewarded" with fighting Dark / someone from the other group?
I'm really hoping Creator wins, I think he has a ~60% chance judging from his RR play, if he does then I think he has a chance vs Trap since he'd have time to prepare!! So excited.
Holy shit can Creator really make it to the GFs... Also imagine if Rogue beats Dark, I don't think Creator could beat Dark but maybe he can beat Rogue??? Holy shit.
Winner of the 2nd seed match will always play the 1st seed of the other group
If 3rd seed of the same group also advance, he will play the 1st seed of his group
Awesome thanks! That makes sense to me.
On April 25 2022 03:15 Balnazza wrote: While another trophhy for Dark would be really cool, I hope Creator can do it. Back in the days, he always seemed like that guy that is just one step away from greatness, but then he fell off (not even sure if he did his military service or if he just dropped it). So him coming out of the gate storming like that wold be really amazing.
Yeah I agree, like in that one match vs MVP in GSL's Greatest on Tal'Darim!
Also, Creator is surprisingly young! He's still only 25, meaning back in 2011 when he fought MVP he was actually ~14!!!
Makes sense when the pool was stacked. Imagine the likes of TY, Inno, Stats, soO, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Zest, Trap battling through this double elim format...
Now? Sorry, even if Maru had snuck in (the only favourite surprisingly bowing out), the extended format just plays out as a forgone formality. Of course, upsets still can happen, but it would be because of the favourite slumping (just as Maru had).
Probably tune in for Rogue v Creator. And if Rogue wins, I really have no interest watching the rest of th matches. Sounds disrespectful to the rest. But let's be honest, their level of play in the RO10 isn't really anything spectacular...
On April 25 2022 17:11 RKC wrote: Cool format. But it came 2-3 years too late.
Makes sense when the pool was stacked. Imagine the likes of TY, Inno, Stats, soO, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Zest, Trap battling through this double elim format...
Now? Sorry, even if Maru had snuck in (the only favourite surprisingly bowing out), the extended format just plays out as a forgone formality. Of course, upsets still can happen, but it would be because of the favourite slumping (just as Maru had).
Seems like a weird conclusion to come to? The RO10 field was competitive enough that Maru and herO got knocked out despite being favorites, and DRG and Creator made it through despite being underdogs.
It can't just be players randomly slumping when it's players you like
On April 25 2022 17:11 RKC wrote: Cool format. But it came 2-3 years too late.
Makes sense when the pool was stacked. Imagine the likes of TY, Inno, Stats, soO, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Zest, Trap battling through this double elim format...
Now? Sorry, even if Maru had snuck in (the only favourite surprisingly bowing out), the extended format just plays out as a forgone formality. Of course, upsets still can happen, but it would be because of the favourite slumping (just as Maru had).
Seems like a weird conclusion to come to? The RO10 field was competitive enough that Maru and herO got knocked out despite being favorites, and DRG and Creator made it through despite being underdogs.
It can't just be players randomly slumping when it's players you like
Both formats have their pros and cons. Old Ro32s/Ro16 outside of the odd time you often had 1/2 clearly better players in a group and 2 worse ones, and they (usually) played out that way.
Round robin I don’t like it in WCS EU much because some players just stomp the groups every time and it’s very predictable. But that’s more a consequence of the players than the format itself.
If Ro10 looks even close to this every season it’s rather exciting. Perhaps it starts sucking for, whatever reason but I’ve really enjoyed it, more than I was expecting tbh
The weekender format always throws up surprises in international tourneys. Trap has had his share being dumped out at the group stage.
There's a very different dynamics at play to this mass group format (playing multiple matchups in a single session) than a knockout format. Which explains why Maru used to (and perhaps still) struggle in foreign tourneys.
Just because the groups are close and upsets happen doesn't mean the tourney is any more exciting. The final four looks as predictable as any other GSL season (one outsider). The difference is that we get more unnecessary mediocre games, build up fake hype, and delay the inevitable.
How is the dynamic different? In the Ro10 you play the same or even less games in a day than in the old format? In the old format, you had to play two or three Bo3s to advance. In this format, you have to play two Bo3s and then another two one week later. And you even know the two opponents you will have to face, giving everyone more specific prep than in the GSL format, where you don't know the exact matchups you will play. It also saves you from having to play the same guy twice, which is a very special dynamic. Dont know about you, but in the past I always found it sad when an underdog beats the favorite, but has to play him again in the Decider and then loses. As long as there are ten atleast somewhat capable players, the new format supports upsets and doesn't give out safety nets to the top players.
My gripe is with the R06 format. I have no issue with the RO10 - I was merely explaining why it's not really surprising that the groups were close and a favourite dropped out.
Back to RO6. My point is that the pool is too shallow to justify having this extra round with a double elim format. The gap between players is too wide. + Show Spoiler +
And the top 2 of each group eventually advanced. DRG and Ragnarok were clearly a level below Rogue and Creator. So we might as well just allow the top 2 players of each group advanced to SF
Maru being knocked out is fair. He's clearly not on form, nor good enough to advance. So the fact that one clear favourite fell in RO10 is irrelevant, and doesn't justify having a RO6.
RO6 makes sense when the Korean scene and RO10 groups are stacked with 7-8 top players of close to equal level. This season? Only 4 top players (1 flopped). That's all I'm saying, which is really a minor gripe. + Show Spoiler +
I only caught the Rogue-Creator game today. I'm guessing from the thread that I didn't miss much from skipping the other games.
Ahhh, okay. That makes much more sense to me. Yeah, the Ro6 format is a bit weird. If it was just 2nd vs. 3rd and the winner against the 1st, that would be enough. Dunno why they thought this slightly overcomplicated system was a good idea tbh.
Yes, a single elim format for RO6 would be better. Maybe even switch to BO7 for each match?
Ironically, the double elim format may even favour favourites more than underdogs (eg a below form Maru sneaking in at third place in RO10 and then claiming a SF spot through the loser bracket).
On April 26 2022 00:56 Balnazza wrote: Ahhh, okay. That makes much more sense to me. Yeah, the Ro6 format is a bit weird. If it was just 2nd vs. 3rd and the winner against the 1st, that would be enough. Dunno why they thought this slightly overcomplicated system was a good idea tbh.
If it is just 2nd vs 3rd of each group and winner advances to semi-final, there's a possibility that someone from group B will throw a map/series so he can avoid the 3rd from group A
On April 26 2022 01:11 RKC wrote: Yes, a single elim format for RO6 would be better. Maybe even switch to BO7 for each match?
Ironically, the double elim format may even favour favourites more than underdogs (eg a below form Maru sneaking in at third place in RO10 and then claiming a SF spot through the loser bracket).
Yeah, the current state leaves favorites the ability to technically lose two? matches post open - and still be alive to win the tourney. edit: Serral is primed for this format
On April 26 2022 00:56 Balnazza wrote: Ahhh, okay. That makes much more sense to me. Yeah, the Ro6 format is a bit weird. If it was just 2nd vs. 3rd and the winner against the 1st, that would be enough. Dunno why they thought this slightly overcomplicated system was a good idea tbh.
If it is just 2nd vs 3rd of each group and winner advances to semi-final, there's a possibility that someone from group B will throw a map/series so he can avoid the 3rd from group A
Why would they do that? Sorry my brain isn’t working properly here today yet I’m just not sure what advantage would be gained